Batteries, What Do You Think?

[tdiggs]

Let's talk batteries for my next one ebike. I am no expert, I have been in this less than a year, and I have been going back and forth with Justin @ Grin, Paul @ Emissions Free (Two great guys by the way), and even got in contact with a couple others (ping, e-bikekit, etc.) to piece together the details to find my best option. Also, I know this is probably a redundant 'noob' post that most of you guys (poor dogman comes to mind, he has answered to every one of my questions! You're the man!) have answered many times, but I just want to say that any comments are greatly appreciated. I am spending a lot of time as it is trying to figure out the best battery for my money and asking on here for the pros opinions would help me greatly.

Kit (from ebikes.ca): 2806 Fast wheel, CA-DP, Half Twist Throttle with Regen Button, upgrade to 25A 72V model with IRFB4110 mosfets controller, and his torque arm

Battery options: (Higher speed ones)

Cellman's 50V 20Ah A123 AMP20 pack (should fit in the frame fairly snug, but it'll do, especially for 20Ah worth!)
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=106

PING 60V 10Ah LiFePO4 with 4.5A quick charger (will fit better in the frame, but less range, not much of an issue though)
*Cont. Discharge is less on this one, at the cost of $300
http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-18/60v-10ah-lifepo4-lithium/Detail

(Lower speed options)

Allcell 48V 13Ah LiNMC
*I understand it's a lower C rating, which could lead to problems with the 25A controller
http://www.chicagoelectricbicycles.com/Batteries.html

PING 48V 15Ah LiFePO4
http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-12/48V-15AH-V2.5-LiFePO4/Detail


There is also one Cellman can build me, using the Samsung NCM (I assume it's the LiNMC from the Allcell packs):

Here’s the total with shipping and a charger for the requested pack:

Samsung (4.5C) 17S, 7P 1 40A continuous, 61.2V, 14.7Ah, 75*137.75*330.25mm, 5.95kg 610 610
71.4V 3A charger 1 60 60

Total Parts Cost = 670 USD

Shipping Cost (Shipments with battery):
DHL Battery Shipment 104 USD

Total Cost inc. PP (3.4%)
DHL Battery Shipment 801 USD equivalent to 6205 HK$


What would you guys decide on for the most speed and longest lasting? The only range I need is 10 miles or less, so I think any will be sufficient.

 

[dogman dan]

10 ah ping will be a tad small for the controller, but not impossible. But since it's less than ideal, I'd rule out that one.

20 ah A123, though very nice for the longer rides, really is a lot of battery to carry for 10 miles. It's also not higher voltage, like the 60v ping. It's "48v" 16s

I can't stop recommending the 48v 15 ah ping. Not as bad to carry as 20 ah a123, and sized about right for 25 amps controllers or less.

The Samsung cells in 17 ah sure would do the trick too. But once you said longer lasting, you threw out all non lifepo4 solutions. Nevertheless, for a 10 mile ride, about 10 ah of those cells would do fine I'm sure. Higher c rate than ping by just enough.

Similarly, one of Grins EZ batteries would not be a bad choice.

Hope that muddied it enough for ya. Just because my ping 48v 15 ah has been a dang good battery, personally I'd buy another today if I had the cash.

But why the 72v controller? Bumping up to 72v, It's getting about time to start reading up on RC lipo. So the 72v battery is not too huge to carry. 72v 10 ah lipo will take you the 10 miles nice and quick.

 

[tdiggs]

Dogman, you are the man! I trust your word.

So now we are ruled down to 48v 15ah (I think the 60V 15ah is too heavy and too pricey for me to get, I can settle for slightly less speed) or the 50V 20Ah A123 from cellman. The only reason I am considering the 50V 20Ah A123 is because if I take her easy I bet I could (based on what I have seen others do) get 40 miles to a campsite and then 40 miles back, maybe drop by a McDonalds on the way to top off the battery or at least give it more juice.

I am still interested in this Samsung (4.5C) pack cellman can make, does anyone have experience with this or any input?

I am getting the larger controller just because I can dial down the current draw from the CA and keep the batteries safe, but in the future I can experiment with lipo's and make a 72v setup just as you said, for fast commuting and fun!

 

[dnmun]

none of those 48V are lower speed options. you use 50V for the cell man pack but it is really only 48V and is just using false labeling to imply it is higher in voltage. but your 72V10A will not go faster than the 48V15Ah from sun-thing guy and it only costs $425 delivered.

not only did you skip over sun-thing guy but you did not list the OSN 48V13Ah pack they are selling for $.75/Wh. did you ask april for a quote either?

 

[tdiggs]

@dnmum

I am not very hip on all the retailers within the community. You will have to elaborate on the OSN 48V13Ah pack you are talking about!

I have gotten a 48V 15Ah LiFePO4 from sun-thing28 before, on my last ebike, and I still have a good charger from bmsbattery.com that works for it, I think it is a 5A charger. sun-thing28 definetly is the cheapest, but I assume he isn't as good of quality as ping? I have never had a ping or anything else, so I have no idea.

I guess you mean the 72V 10Ah wouldn't deliver as many amps (or just more amps) than a typical 48V 15Ah LiFePO4. I suppose we could always make it a 20Ah! Justin did say, in an email, that "You could make a 24V ebike system that blows the snot of the 2806 at 72V".

Edit: There is this eBay seller (wider than the others, but I think I can make it work):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/150828673200?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Or should I stick with sun-thing28 rather than this one, if I go the eBay route.

The other thing between the sun-thing28 and PING is that the ping has a rated max continuous discharge of 30A and the sun-thing28 is only 20A. Would that imply the extra for the ping is worth it?

 

[999zip999]

April is her E.S. name. So http://www.nancy@osnpower.cn or look at the "for sale new" in E.S. OSN NEW Lifepo4 26700 3.3Ah cell(5-10C) $2.5pc/$0.76/Ah

 

[tdiggs]

@999zip999
Thank you! I still have to get to know all of the wonderful ebike suppliers. So if I just PM her then she will be able to set me up with a quality, yet affordable and long lasting, 48V 15Ah pack? Or do I just purchase on directly from her website that you listed?

 

[spinningmagnets]

Stick with the dogman-approved suggestions.

There is also one Cellman can build me, using the Samsung NCM (I assume it's the LiNMC from the Allcell packs):

The various cells using NMC/NCM actually do have different C-rates. Not enough people have tried them to get a real-world set of reliable data. If Paul @ cell_man has selected a specific NCM cell, I would be willing to try it if I was in the market to get another pack. He has worked hard to build up his good reputation, and I'm sure he would not risk that on a sketchy supplier.

 

[tdiggs]

@spinningmagnets
dogman approved of the 48V 15Ah ping, but I wouldn't mind more elaboration and comments on the NCM pack that cellman can build. It's higher voltage, lighter, smaller, has a 40A Cont. BMS, and the same Ah rating. Just for a little more money too, but dogman did say it wouldn't last as long, but by how much longer would it not last? I would only draw 25A out of it because that is what the controller is rated at.

48V 15Ah PING vs. Cellman NCM!

 

[wesnewell]

For only a 10 mile range, get 6 of the 20C Turnigy 5000mah packs and run at 18s2p on the 25A 72V controller. 13 miles wot, and never overheat. Cost $256 and never worry about stressing the battery pack. Charger ~$100 extra if you don't have one.

 

[tdiggs]

@wesnewell
It has been told to me that lipo is not a battery setup that is ideal for a daily driver and if I slip up (not having a BMS) then they are likely to explode or catch fire. I am not experienced with lipo enough to make it my daily driver at the moment. I do want to experiment with lipo, but would like to have a solid and safe pack that can take abuse and serve as my main pack.

I wouldn't know which charger to buy and I assume I'd have to charge each of the 6 packs individually and that would be inconvenient when I can just plug and play one pack with one cord.

 

[ihategeeks]

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=48895
this is my mac 8t spec (not purchased) , based on cellman's 50-20 battery you are considering.
From what I've read the battery chem is great and so is cellman's reputation. Option 2 was ping, but at 2C I'm already pushing the battery too hard. With Cellman, 2C isn't even a concern.
The concern would be battery dimension at 20a, still trying to best determine how I should put this thing in the frame with the controller.

40 miles is really pushing your luck though. You could do it with low throttle, but you need to consider wind forces and road grades.
I want to make it to the next farthest town at 26 miles, I would have to be at half throttle , max 3% grades unassisted. That is going to be a full cycle of the battery to do too, not good for the battery.
If you value distance over speed, you need atleast 30ah for that distance, and even then you are still going to burn through a whole cycle. You also have increased your charging time unless your charger is awesome.
20ah with generous assist is feasible though.

 

[Ykick]

@wesnewell
It has been told to me that lipo is not a battery setup that is ideal for a daily driver and if I slip up (not having a BMS) then they are likely to explode or catch fire. I am not experienced with lipo enough to make it my daily driver at the moment. I do want to experiment with lipo, but would like to have a solid and safe pack that can take abuse and serve as my main pack.

I wouldn't know which charger to buy and I assume I'd have to charge each of the 6 packs individually and that would be inconvenient when I can just plug and play one pack with one cord.

Refreshing to read. No need to totally avoid RC Lipo but majority users will need to answer a number of "if's" before they call it their daily commuter battery pack. Biggest one: IF you can accept some pyrotechnic damage and have a relatively safe location to ride & charge, maybe dive right in? Some around here did and learned quickly. I went slow and careful and it's turned out pretty good so far.

Safest play IMO is to source the best error resistant high power pack for your needs and then maybe add a small amount of RC Lipo as a reserve pack to test the waters? Investment in a small RC Charger and CellLogs, power meter, etc. will never be a regret. Eventually, even the best of Lifepo4, NCM/NMC, etc. will require some troubleshooting so even if you don't continue using RC Lipo the tools to use it will be useful in your eBike life.

I'm very curious about some of those Samsung cells? Although I'm well stocked with RC Lipo for the moment 'looking ahead to the next year or two? The possibilities are truly exciting and apparently only going to get better....

Thanks for your good questions and willingness to share what the journey is like for folks approaching this technology during the current climate!

 

[tdiggs]

@ihategeeks
I will keep up with your build thread. I am debating the Cellman 50V pack or the Ping 48V. Would either be sufficient for my controller choice? How can you tell the C rating if it's not listed on either battery specs page?
Thanks

@Ykick
See I want to start slowly (test the waters, as you say) and I want to have a dependable pack, albeit more expensive than lipo, that is purely plug and play. I can always order a few lipos in the future once I feel confident and then proceed from there to see how it goes.

As a side question. I ordered the 2806 Fast kit with 25A controller from ebikes.ca. Do all of his kits/motors/controllers connect the battery via anderson power poles? Would ping be able to set me up if I asked? I assume his stuff comes bare wire.

 

[Ykick]

A small 12S2P 5-8AH reserve RC Lipo pack is a great little thing to have in a backpack for unkown distance rides. Sorta like reserve fuel tanks on trucks, RVs, planes. Run dry, swap over and get back home or to a charger.

I love/hate APP's (Andersons) and use them with 30-35A battery-controller current. They're not perfect but for what they can do (different configurations) it's worth the learning curve to assemble them properly.

Good luck!

 

[tdiggs]

@Ykick
I plan on doing such a thing. Maybe keep it on a rear rack bag. My issue is determining which packs I should buy. There are 5s, 6s, 20C, 25C, and all different Ah values. I can figure out the others, but the C rating. Which C rating would be sufficient or what is the standard choice for ebikes?

I still want to hear what people think I should do for a battery, given the choices of:
Ping 48V 15Ah
Cellman's 50V 20Ah A123 (probably too heavy and bulky to bother with)
Cellman's Samsung (4.5C) 61V 15Ah nominal pack (light, small)

 

[ihategeeks]

@ihategeeks
I will keep up with your build thread. I am debating the Cellman 50V pack or the Ping 48V. Would either be sufficient for my controller choice? How can you tell the C rating if it's not listed on either battery specs page?
Thanks

25amp controller with a 15 amp ping batter is a 1.6C draw. Controller amps/ah of battery pack = Your C rate draw.
This is about as high as you should take it with Ping if you want longevity from it. You can effectively call Ping a 2C battery at the max. He lists cycle life with 1C draw on his site.
With the Cellman you are drawing 1.25C, so even better there, but you can push that battery a lot harder. a123 chem can do 30C constant and 60C peak. I would tell you to slap a bigger controller on it, but you are limited to 25 amps at your motor or you risk melting wires with your hub choice.

@Ykick
See I want to start slowly (test the waters, as you say) and I want to have a dependable pack, albeit more expensive than lipo, that is purely plug and play. I can always order a few lipos in the future once I feel confident and then proceed from there to see how it goes.

a123 is LifePo4 dependability with Lipo performance.

As a side question. I ordered the 2806 Fast kit with 25A controller from ebikes.ca. Do all of his kits/motors/controllers connect the battery via anderson power poles? Would ping be able to set me up if I asked? I assume his stuff comes bare wire.

No idea

 

[tdiggs]

@ihategeeks
Justin at ebikes.ca confirmed that they are anderson power poles for the battery connections on his kits.
So Should I chuck the extra money for more range, more life, more performance and get the A123?
I honestly don't mind the extra weight (not that much anyways) and it's also only 20mm wider in the frame than the ping, which won't really matter either.
The extra range may be welcome in some cases with me. I do not plan on pedaling the bike unless I need to honestly, just like the last one.

 

[Fat Mike]

I've been running one of the cellman NCM (4.5C) packs for a little over a month now. Its 36V 14Ah. I'm running a 9C 2807 with a 25A controller. I went with the NCM pack because of size/weight and the fact I wasn't looking for a high power setup. I'm just looking for something to get me to work and back and some casual cruising around the bike paths. Most importantly, I wanted simple, safe plug and play charging....so lipo was off my list right from the start. I also considered cellman's A123 20 ah packs but they are just too damn big and were significantly more money. My goal for build #1 was simple and not too expensive.

I have read a bunch on these NCM cells and from what I can gather, take the 4.5C rating with a grain of salt. Personally, I have my CA limited to 20A so at peak (which is only <1min at a time) I'm pulling a little under 1.5C. Without the limit, I've found the 25A controller actually allows bursts of around 30A (at least according to my CA), so a little over 2C. Once up to speed, full throttle cruise has a continuous draw of a little over 1C and about 0.75C in speed setting 2 on my 3 spd switch (which I use most of the time). The ebikes simulator suggests you might be drawing more current with the 2806 than my 2807 at full throttle, so keep that in mind. Voltage sag seems small, not more than 2 or 3 V during full throttle acceleration that I've seen so far. With these settings and no peddalling, I'm averaging about 11wh/km (mostly in spd 2, not full throttle).

Overall I'm happy with the battery. The performance (get up and go) is nothing to write home about, but that's not why I bought it. They clearly aren't for everyone, but as long as you understand and accepth the limitations and trade offs you're making with these cells, then they seem fine. My personal impression is that a lot of people on here have more experience (than me) and prefer higher performance setups, which is likely why these don't seem to see as much use/reviews.

Caveat - this is my first ebike setup so your/others' mileage may vary

 

[bowlofsalad]

I say, go for a123 if you can afford it.

 

[alfantastic]

I don't have nowhere near Dogman's status on recommendation, but I've been running a Ping 48v 15Ah for over a year now, and it's an awesome battery.
I've been using it with a 30A controller and usually always full throttle with plenty of 32A peaks (that's what the C.A. reads)

The battery actually provides 50 - 52v under load, until the last few Ah's, where it sags a lot more.

It's a tiny bit bulky and on the heavy side, but reliability has been impeccable, which to me is very important.

Bit pointless to quote mileage out of the battery, as usage differs with the rider, but needless to say I get at least 20 miles of very heavy usage.
Would go on forever if used on the 15mph setting on my speed switch.

Just thought I would add, that Ping makes these very robust, so should withstand a knock or two.

 

[tdiggs]

@Fat Mike
I am glad you can share your input on the Sansumg cells he uses! I have to make a cardboard model of the battery packs to see if they fit the frame well. It may end up being the samsung pack. I am not opposed, only slightly, to putting the other packs on a rear rack...

After adding a 5A charger, spare 3A plastic charger, shipping, the A123 pack comes out cheaper per whr or Ah.

A123 has greater range at the cost of 3.5 lbs. I don't think either of these will fit in the frame, I didn't have time to make a cardboard model today, so I will tomorrow. It may have to go on the rear rack, unless I get the Samsung cell pack.

I have asked cellman if he can build the A123 pack in such a way to fit the frame bag. So we will see. He seems to answer emails only once a day, the wait is killing me! ha

 

[dnmun]

your sunthing pack can be split into two pieces and mounted down low in back too. those small cylindricals that OSN is selling might fit in between your legs and you could use the two packs together in parallel (13.2+15Ah) at the cell level. through the sense wire harness. that should give you 60+ amps to call on.

 

[tdiggs]

Is it pretty dummy-proof to untape the sun-thing pack and fold it open and then retape it? Are the ping's the same way?

 

[wesnewell]

@wesnewell
It has been told to me that lipo is not a battery setup that is ideal for a daily driver and if I slip up (not having a BMS) then they are likely to explode or catch fire. I am not experienced with lipo enough to make it my daily driver at the moment. I do want to experiment with lipo, but would like to have a solid and safe pack that can take abuse and serve as my main pack.

I wouldn't know which charger to buy and I assume I'd have to charge each of the 6 packs individually and that would be inconvenient when I can just plug and play one pack with one cord.

I've been using lipo for over 2 years now. No bms, and would never use one. I ride mine 10 miles every day on average and usually only charge once or twice a week. As for charging, you'd charge them all at the same time using a 6s charger and a 6x charge cable along with a 6s 6x balance cable. Here's my old 18s2p pack showing how to wire, use, and charge it.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39666