Best way for a US civilian to ship a battery??

[mediumrare]

So I sold an AllCell 48V Li Ion to a fellow member and for the life of me I can't figure out how to legally ship it. FedEx and UPS require a special hazmat certification and the USPS won't ship them at all. I have it securely packaged in the special hazmat packaging it came it so I know it won't ignite, but I'm concerned that they might randomly scan it and I'll lost the battery or get in trouble. Any suggestions?

 

[dnmun]

always discharge the battery first.

then disconnect the sense wires on the BMS to turn the battery off.

i think UPS will ship batteries by surface freight but if not then i always would just label them as 'power transformer' which it literally is.

 

[major]

Welcome to the club. No way. Deceit is a risk. Stiff penalties if you're caught. Discharging it or calling it something different doesn't make it not a Lithium battery. The only way I found was to deliver it personally and transport the battery in a private automobile.

 

[mediumrare]

Maybe I'll take a ride over to E-Bike Kit and see if they'll ship it for me. They must have the hazmat certifications.

 

[dnmun]

sure it is deceit. but nobody labels their 15 lbs shipment of pot as that either. bet you can never guess how much is shipped through UPS every day of the year.

the reason to discharge the battery first is to remove the charge from the pack so it cannot cause a fire even in the event it is crushed and shorted. i never did understand why people feel like a battery is only in good shape if it is charged up. in fact batteries should be left uncharged to extend cycle life. the reason to remove the sense wire cable is to cause the BMS to turn off the output.

but i have batteries that were shipped to me by UPS and labeled as batteries so i know UPS will ship them.

 

[major]

the reason to discharge the battery first is to remove the charge from the pack so it cannot cause a fire even in the event it is crushed and shorted. i never did understand why people feel like a battery is only in good shape if it is charged up. in fact batteries should be left uncharged to extend cycle life.

I have had a number of cells damaged from being over discharged and know of a number of others who have lost numerous cells from over discharge. In fact, wasn't that how the Tesla Roadsters were bricked? Unless you're discarding the Lithium battery, I'd advise against discharging it below the recommended minimum. Typically storage and shipment recommendation is 60% SoC.

 

[dnmun]

where did you get this bull about over discharging the cells? the battery has a BMS to protect it from over discharge. i do not consider it safe to ship a battery that is 60% charged. i guess i was not clear enuff about why. nothing else i can say to help you understand. you have your own way of thinking which i do not agree with.

but i do know that UPS will ship them surface freight. i had some batteries shipped to me this summer by UPS and they were labeled lithium batteries.

 

[gogo]

How many Wh, or Ah, is your '48V' battery?

USPS rules:
http://pe.usps.gov/text/pub52/pub52c3_026.htm#ep900090
http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2012/pb22350/html/updt_002.htm
Here's my post from last year:
Subject: Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

US laws regarding shipping lithium:

Ground 49 CFR 172.704

Air IATA section 1.5

Hazardous Materials Regulations HMR; 49 CFR parts 100-185

RE: Ground 49 CFR 172.704
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title49/49cfr172_main_02.tpl

There is regulation concerning training of 'hazmat employees' by employers involved with hazmat shipping, but no regulation of individuals offering packages to shippers, except that the individual must certify by signature that all regulations are met.

I understand why Fedex and UPS choose to treat customers in the same way the regulations refer to 'hazmat employees' concerning training. They have liabilities that are protected doubly by doing so and I'd think it does enhance safety. The USPS, being at least a quasi-public entity, may not be allowed to impose requirements beyond those set forth in the CFR.

I don't know if things have changed since then.

 

[arkmundi]

Safe packaging, box it up, label it "lithium-ion", take it USPS and specify "ground" shipping. I believe they will. I have. And yes, UPS or FedEx require the "certified" hazmat shipper label.

 

[arkmundi]

Safe packaging, box it up, label it "lithium-ion", take it USPS and specify "ground" shipping. I believe they will. I have. And yes, UPS or FedEx require the "certified" hazmat shipper label, so don't even try.

 

[major]

where did you get this bull about over discharging the cells?

Personal experience. Witnessed experiences by others who have lost cells due to over discharge. And from professionals in the battery business at several manufacturers of cells, including a "battery school" I attended last year at the headquarters of a major Lithium battery producer.

First you instructed this fellow to discharge the battery. I took that to mean to remove all the energy from all the cells. Later you said to let the BMS control the discharge which would only take the cells down to LVC. That is different from fully discharging and would not remove all the energy from the cells. In fact, there would likely remain enough energy at the LVC to start a fire. But you're correct, if you discharge with a BMS, you will not kill the battery. That is what the BMS is there for, right?

As far as shipping and storage at 60% SoC, it is standard procedure for Lithium batteries and cells used in the automotive industry. Maybe your hobby cells are different.

But all this is academic because the regulations against unqualified persons shipping Lithium batteries do not specify anything regarding SoC the last time I read them.

 

[USAEBIKECO]

Fully charged at all times it the best way to extend the life of the battery pack.

Letting a battery sit uncharged for weeks or months will kill it.

 

[major]

Fully charged at all times it the best way to extend the life of the battery pack.

Hi lester,

After my last post where I said 60% for storage and shipment of Lithium batteries, I did a google search on the topic and found quite a few articles specifying 50% SOC for storage. I saw one mention of 40%. I saw no place tell to store Lithium at full SOC. Also, note that balance type chargers such as Thunder 1220 have a discharge mode and instructions concerning discharging the battery to cell voltage appropriate for storage (less than full or 100%). Please tell us of your source of information for the full charge statement, otherwise it is your opinion, which is o.k. I don't think we're talking about a drastic difference in life between storing at 50 vs 100%. But certainly Lithium cells should not be left in a discharged state any longer than necessary.

Another hint: When you buy a new product which contains a rechargeable Lithium battery, such as a power tool, is the battery full charged? Not that I have seen. I have not measure the incoming SOC, but from the length of time needed to fully charge that new battery, 50% seems reasonable. I have popped the brand new battery into the tool for a quick test and it always functions well, so it obviously is not fully discharged. These products must endure an unknown storage time from manufacture to date of sale and ultimate use by the customer. The producers of these products keep the Lithium batteries at around 50% SOC (I believe) to optimize the storage life and chances for happy customers.

I am particularly interested in this storage SOC issue because I have quite a few in storage. If you or anyone else has information on the subject, please share.

Thanks,

major

 

[arkmundi]

Every single A123 I have bought are at 3.3V on receipt, within a small range. That's nominal voltage for LiFePO4, which is the recommended safe storage charge. Its NOT 100%, which is closer to 3.62V. Of course at nominal voltage a cell has the largest SOC range possible, so could be anywhere between 40% and 80% of max capacity. But I don't store batteries or cells for long - I buy them and use them. If for some reason I were to store them, I would fully charge them and then discharge to exactly 3.3V, whenever that voltage appears in the discharge cycle. I'd use my eBike with Celllogs attached, and set an alarm to let me know. Then I'd store them in my cabinet, so temperature is also controlled. Then one instance which has and will arise when I need to ship cells is when they have reached their end of usable life, when I'll ship them to preferred recycling agent. Of course then, the cells won't hold a charge, so it doesn't matter.

 

[Gregory]

Sorry to the OP for going off topic, but 100% SOC for storage of lithium will shorten lifespan.

major have you watched this video?

My take on this is anything <50% is a good everyday storage SOC which is easy to achieve, and is a compromise between extending shelf life and ensuring against self discharge/parasitics taking the cell too low. Ideally kept in a cool place.

 

[major]

Sorry to the OP for going off topic, but 100% SOC for storage of lithium will shorten lifespan.

major have you watched this video?

Also, apology as to being off topic.

I did watch that vid. Thanks. Long. But it did show that it was bad for life to spend time at 100% SOC. He used 4.2V/c as 100% SOC and showed graphs indicating accelerated cell degradation above 4.1V/c. He didn't really expand quantitatively w/r/t SOC vs life. At the end, during Q&A, he mentioned that he has stored cells at 20% SOC with no noticeable loss of capacity since 2009. Also, he stressed the importance of storing at cold temperature (kids about laptop in refrig).