Big Green

[deronmoped]

We have all heard about Big Oil, is Big Green going to be the new "bunch of bad guys"? It's already happening, but it has been sugar coated so people swallow it without even knowing they have been taken.

1) Did you know you are paying for your neighbors photovoltaic system, they get the benefit you get the bill.

2) Did you know you bought me a new refrigerator.

3) It goes quite deep with subsidies for all kinds of energy saving measures, but only you pay and someone else is benefiting. That includes residential, commercial and industrial.

4) You are now being forced to buy things that you would not normally buy. Energy Star this, florescent that, economy car that...

I'm sure there is a thousand more examples, but people are going to keep sucking those down without even a burp, that is, until they find out huge companies (all the ones we call Big Oil) are now in their back pocket through "Big Green".

"Big Oil" is not stupid, they will be cashing in and we will be sucked dry.

Deron.

 

[Cackalacka]

Methinks the moped doth protest too much.

Questions are usually concluded by the questionmark, Derron.

We've been subsidizing energy companies through wealth-transfer/taxes for generations. If $0.00000000000029 of my income tax goes to Mr. & Mrs. Jones down the street so they can take strain off the grid and reduce the necessity for the owners of said grid to raise my rates/confiscate my taxes to build another coal power plant, well...

Why are you ostensibly and demonstrably pro-big-bizness, pro-pollution, and anti-progress, Moped?

 

[julesa]

DNFTT

 

[swbluto]

It does seem like Deronmoped has rebellious characteristics (That is, actively opposed to whatever ideology a group he's a part of shares) regardless of the rationality/irrationality of a given idea, but he does seem to at least pick up somewhat rational suspicions in that pursuit when he actively creates threads (Responding to threads is another matter).

Anyways, I think no matter which direction you go for letting the money flow, there'll be someone there to take advantage of the financial opportunity. That isn't characteristic of just a given economic branch (Big green, oil, lenders, etc.), but just characteristic of corporations and their interaction with humanity. Hopefully, the money siphoning will go to more stable and peaceful countries than the Middle-East - at least that would be an improvement.

 

[mrzed]

1. did you know that when you drive your gas guzzler, you get the benefit, and everyone else gets the pollution?
2. etc.

My point is, the negative consequences of individual decisions are often borne by people who get no benefit from them. In the cases you chose, it is obvious because there is a direct subsidy. In many other cases, there is a less direct subsidy, such as where I live: the cost of insurance and gasoline taxes do not add up to the total cost of maintaining the road infrastructure, health costs, and policing for driving. So as a non-driver, but general taxpayer, I am helping to subsidize the costs for driving.

This is common in North America at least, and a major component of the subsidy that urban dwellers are forced to provide to those who choose the suburbs.

 

[mikefish]

I Am A Bannana!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N4WZS7Xh_o

 

[John in CR]

Deron,

I'm sorry but I can't share your pessimism. I look at THEM, for which I lump Big Oil and the Utilities monopolies together as them, as having significant worries at this moment in time. Both business models are based on getting that regular payment from you, whether it's monthly or every time you fill up your tank, and there really hasn't been much you can do about either other than take some measures to conserve. They don't care, and just see you as an annuity.

I'm optimistic that this will come to an end, at least to a large enough extent to be noticed, over the next 10 years or so. All that's required is a good locale for wind and/or solar. Sure the early adopters are paying high prices for wind turbine rigs or are getting useless stuff for cheaper prices, but properly priced and properly engineered domestic sized wind turbines are inevitable. On the solar side you've got the 3kw Infinia solar dish stirling rig in production (see http://www.infiniacorp.com/infinia-solar-system.html along with other similar systems far along the development stage.

As these types of products are incorporated into the price of houses they will gain widespread acceptance, and then the general population will be able to stick it to THEM. The technology already exists with the only sticking point to date being battery tech & prices, but from what I've seen over the past 18 months in terms of battery improvements and plummeting prices, that issue is all but licked. Instead of whining about others getting the tax incentives, start looking at how you can maximize your ROI and get your own piece of the pie.

John

 

[Anonymous]

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[swbluto]

It does seem like Deronmoped has rebellious characteristics (That is, actively opposed to whatever ideology a group he's a part of shares)

I wouldn't call it rebellious, I'd call it having a different opinion.

A different opinion for the sake of having a different opinion is what I tend to call having rebellious characteristics... :wink:

(Btw, I mean non-conformist as a compliment. )

Now a different opinion that seems carefully reasoned with rather substantial consideration of the benefits and detriments, that's what I consider a worthy different opinion.

 

[deronmoped]

I'm just pointing out, could we just be a bunch of sheep, getting the wool pulled over our eyes?

Whether you call it "Big Oil" or something else, I'm betting these people and companies that control large parts of the economy are going to morph into whatever they need to be to keep control.

"Big Oil" may or may not control all the green energy, but the same sorta power brokers will be in charge. That is why I call it "Big Green". They will have no interest in a clean environment, greed is what will drive them. The people that control money will see all the money that can be made in the switch to other forms of energy generation. Now this may look nice on the face of it, green energy and all, but what about the subsidies, kickbacks, carbon trading schemes...

In my first post I was trying to point this out to you guys, some get the benefits, some get the shaft. And it is not going to be peanuts either, once this gets up a head of steam, it's going to cost us way more then just subsidizing the neighbors photovoltaic system or insulating someones house. We are talking about changing the whole energy structure of the US!

The greedy sons of bitches are going to cash in and we will be left holding the bag!

Deron.

 

[Anonymous]

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[Malcolm]

Wouldn't there be a fundamental difference between Big Oil and Big Green?

In order to sell its wares, Big Oil has to encourage us to lust for power and be wasteful with energy.

Big Green on the other hand has to encourage us to think about how we use energy and to chase efficiency. Surely that's an educating influence?

 

[John in CR]

Deron,

What do you mean by Big Green anyway? I see Big Energy = Big Oil + Big Utilities. Then there's Big Industry in which I'm sure Big Energy will participate as Big Industry builds large alternative energy projects. In the meantime I see absolutely nothing wrong with stimulating investment in the coming energy revolution via tax incentives. If you don't figure out how to get your own share then shame on you.

John

 

[dnmun]

malcolm, in this country green means that people will have access to other unlimited sources of energy to waste without having to pay the going price for energy.

it is easy enuff for people to get their usage down to less than 4kWh/day and get gas consumption to under 10 gallons a month, but this is america where everything is ours to consume, so the mentality is just to use as much as possible to prove you can waste with the best of them.

but things are chaanging a little now. so many people have lost their jobs from this overconsumption bubble bursting that they don't drive as much even with gas prices back down to $2.48/gallon.

it is not like in europe, people in this country would riot if they had to pay a fair price for gas and road taxes like you do over there. but if they added $4-5/gallon road taxes then it would cost the same as europe and we could balance the budget in a year.

i don't think deron even has a clue about oil companies and what they do. just part of an evil conspiracy. not to diss him in particular since so many people really believe it. to think that they can control the price of oil just proves the lack of understanding of international markets.

the treasury is threatening to limit hedging in oil futures by speculators as a way to control the wide swings in price, but it is not even clear that will even work.

 

[deronmoped]

Wouldn't there be a fundamental difference between Big Oil and Big Green?

In order to sell its wares, Big Oil has to encourage us to lust for power and be wasteful with energy.

Big Green on the other hand has to encourage us to think about how we use energy and to chase efficiency. Surely that's an educating influence?

No, Big Green will want us to buy their products too and also subsidize them to a bigger extent then Big Oil. I have no problem with buying some product I want, but when it comes to paying for someone else's stuff is where I balk. Right now we are paying for other peoples photovoltaic systems (50% subsidy) insulation of other peoples houses (up to 100% subsidy) other energy saving measures (100% subsidy). This is just the residential stuff, what about commercial and industrial kickbacks that we are footing the bill for? We are talking about changing the whole energy structure of the US, this is going to be very expensive to everyone. From the looks of it, we will be throwing lots of money around, with the very people that we call Big Oil taking advantage of the situation.

Where there is money there is corruption and greed, do not be naive and believe just because they label it as green everyone is going to nice and fair. Where the money goes, the crooks soon follow.

Deron.

 

[deronmoped]

Deron,

What do you mean by Big Green anyway? I see Big Energy = Big Oil + Big Utilities. Then there's Big Industry in which I'm sure Big Energy will participate as Big Industry builds large alternative energy projects. In the meantime I see absolutely nothing wrong with stimulating investment in the coming energy revolution via tax incentives. If you don't figure out how to get your own share then shame on you.

John

What I mean by "Big Green" is the same understanding of what "Big Oil" is.

1) A bunch of crooks.

2) People running a industry that are only in it for the money.

3) Greedy people taking advantage of the system we live under.

4) Where there is huge profits to be made, congressman, senators, businessmen... will be bought off by the crooks.

5) Where there is tons of money, there will be corruption.

If you think about how much money will be changing hands to change the whole energy structure of the US, it will be mind boggling. This is not going to be totally done by a market driven system, it will be done by forcing the system. Markets have a way of keeping themselves in check. Forcing a product onto the market is going to take a lot of greasing of the system. Subsidies, kickbacks, buying off representatives, rebates... Even laws will be enacted, banning things, requiring things, penalties...

Big companies (Big Green) will have their lobbyist pushing their agendas, their products, laws to favor them... Call it what you want, corruption, bending the rules in your favor, way to be green... There is going to be a lot of money to be had, and the people who take advantage of it are going to be rich, who could care less about being green.

The problem I see is people are going to let their guard down. "Oh, it's for the greening of America, I'm all for that, lets pass another trillion dollars in subsidies to "Big Green".

Deron.

 

[Malcolm]

Thanks for the clarification dnmun. Like you say, there are differences in attitudes between Europe and the US, though they may not be as big as you think, judging by the ever-growing number of SUVs on British roads. I sometimes suspect that most people subconciously realise this is the last gasp of the oil industry and are just making the most of it before we all have to tighten our belts...

deron:
I'm old enough (or cynical enough) to realise that the smell of money brings out the rats. Green subsidies aren't perfect, but how else would you create incentives to promote the development of green technology or make it economically viable to invest in low-emission power generation?

 

[Cackalacka]

Deron,

If you're so upset by green-washing, then why the hell did you spawn a thread last week from a green-washing organization, that carbon-sense crap?

I should have listened to julesa...

 

[Anonymous]

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[swbluto]

I heard on the radio today that the Ontario government will offer up to $10,000 in rebates for purchase of an electric vehicle. Here's an article about it on the CBC website:

Ontario pushes electric cars as auto-sector boost

On the radio they interviewed one guy who was a critic, he basically said (paraphrasing) that the government shouldn't offer rebates like this, if they do anything they should help companies produce technology for cars that people can afford and will want to buy without such rebates. BINGO.

This is a misguided program, as is the vancouver "requirement" for new buildings to have electric car plug-ins. It makes no sense to start off with these cars requiring subsidies, it is a plan that is destined for failure. They can and should be produced for their actual production cost and sold for reasonable profits. The vancouver requirement for plug-ins also makes no sense, because I don't think anyone knows what the future charger requirements will be, they are acting cart before the horse. Both of these programs will surely revolve around special interests, special contracts, buddies in industry, kickbacks and favours, and everything else that comes with such government intervention. Also, as was already mentioned, who pays for all of this? Who decides which of the "certain percentage" of new buildings will be required to install electric plug-ins? Who decides which companies and contractors get the work for all of this? Do you think the people designing these programs have any clue about electric vehicles? I think not.

Like the old IBM signs used to say
THINK

And like the newer Apple slogan
THINK DIFFERENT

If such thoughts make me "classified" as rebellious or non-conformist, so be it.

Haha, you seem to act as I'm the type of person that readily categorizes people under such simple definitions based on one claim. It takes a group of claims that's obviously consistent in one way or another to have the idea-generating entity labeled and such.

Anyways, I agree with you that nothing should be subsidized. Things that have a societal detriment should instead be taxed according to their societal costs but it does make me wonder what kind of political effects subsidies have as opposed to taxes. I think people would react more violently if a 10,000 dollar tax was lobbied onto petrol vehicles than if a 10,000 dollar subsidy was put onto electric vehicles.

I also think this subsidization may be also have a future investment element, so it might not be so different than would be giving money to the research community. Subsidization would spur development and the subsequent research.

As far as plug ins, it does seem like it might be premature. I think 400 volt plug ins were recently standardized though... (And if Eestor comes around, maybe we'll see the second generation 2000 volt plug ins. :lol: ). However, I take it that it is a gradual development, so the switching costs wouldn't be so great if, say, Eestor revolutionized the world within 5 years.

 

[deronmoped]

So what pops up in the news today.

They will be weatherizing peoples dog houses with this much money being flung into the air!

MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) - Ready or not, states are getting a tenfold boost in federal money to weatherize drafty homes, an increase so huge it has raised fears of waste and fraud and set off a scramble to find workers and houses for them to repair.

An obscure program that installs insulation in homes and makes them more energy-efficient is distributing $4.7 billion in stimulus funds—dwarfing the $447 million originally planned by Congress this year and the $227 million spent in 2008.

That is enough to weatherize 1 million homes, instead of the 140,000 normally done each year.

President Barack Obama said pouring money into the program would lower utility bills for cash-strapped families, provide jobs for construction workers idled by the housing slump, and make the nation more energy-efficient.

"You're getting a three-fer," Obama said. "That's exactly the kind of program we should be funding."

But some worry states won't be able to keep track of the money.

Leslie Paige, spokeswoman for the Council for Citizens Against Government Waste, said the program is open to fraud because of the way oversight is divided. The federal government passes the money to states, then states pass it to community action agencies, and the agencies pass it to contractors who work with customers.

"It's such a Rube Goldberg operation it should be setting off alarm bells," she said.

Energy Department spokeswoman Christina Kielich defended the program, saying the federal government monitors state operations and does a thorough review at least every two years of the local organizations. In addition, states are getting their money in increments and must demonstrate quality control to get more.

The program helps low-income families take steps to reduce their home energy expenses, from caulking leaky windows to replacing heating and cooling systems. The Energy Department says 6.2 million households have benefited since it began in 1976, saving the average household about $350 a year on energy bills.

In addition to receiving an infusion of stimulus money, the program was expanded to cover families making up to twice the federal poverty level, or $44,100 for a family of four. Also, the average amount that can be spent per house was more than doubled to $6,500.

The funding for New York is going up from $20.1 million last year to $395 million. California's share is soaring from $6.3 million to $185.8 million. Virginia's is going up 23 1/2 times, from $4 million annually to $94.1 million.

"I was stunned," said Shea Hollifield, Virginia's deputy director of housing. "Spending that much money will be a challenge."

In Texas, the state's share is increasing nearly 60 times, from $5.6 million to $327 million. To spend the money efficiently and on time, state officials decided to go beyond the community organizations that normally distribute it and route $100 million to large cities.

"They have experience in administering large, complicated programs," said Gordon Anderson, spokesman for the Texas Department of Housing and Community Affairs.

States are hurrying to find qualified weatherization workers and caulk-ready homes.

Wisconsin set up weatherization "boot camps" to train workers. West Virginia used to give new workers on-the-job training but is now looking to move to classrooms and online.

Alabama plans to train home builders in how to bid for weatherization contracts. Russell Davis, vice president of the Alabama Home Builders Association, said builders who once had no interest in weatherization contracts now see them as a way to keep their crews busy.

In many states, qualified homeowners are already on waiting lists. But some states don't have enough recipients signed up.

"We are out of clients. We need clients bad," said Cade Gunnells, weatherization coordinator for three counties in central Alabama.

To help find them, states are updating Web sites about the expanded program and working with nonprofit groups, churches and the news media to get the word out. Charles Uptain, a 73-year-old retiree, had his Montgomery home repaired in the weatherized program last year. His utility bills went down by about $60 a month after workers fixed leaky windows, replaced cracked panes, re-taped air-conditioning ducts and blew in new insulation. Uptain's house required 2 1/2 days of work and slightly more than $3,000.

"This wasn't wasteful spending. This was well-spent money," Uptain said.

Deron.