BMI cells

In Sandia Lab Acknowledgment it says thank you to Michelle of LifeBatt
and picture shows green cell with LifeBatt print on it.
So I understand cell was provided by LifeBatt.
MC
 
miro13car, can you see the cells in your pack? I'm wondering if they are the green ones or the gray?
 
http://www.lifebatt.com/cellspecs.pdf

Lifebatt specs says that they can discharge 12C continuos and 14C for an 18s pulse. :twisted: :twisted:
 
mcstar,
thank you so much for a link to electric-echo web site.
Such a abundance of info on BMI packs and VMS boards and he can be contacted.
That is exactely what I need - exchange of info with other BMI /PSI/LifeBATT owners.
That`s what they don`t want us to find out from each other.
LifeBatt in contrast provide very limited info .
LifeBatt application note I got with pack is written in bad English and scanty in info.
There is much more owners want to know how VMS work , beacause I am seeing all kind of behavour of VMS which is not described in LifeBatt limited info provided with packs.
MC
 
miro13car said:
mcstar,
there are grey cells with LifeBatt logos .
Intersting there are barcodes showing under grey wrapping
covered.
MC

BMI cells?
 
After close look ,
bar code is on naked aluminium cell , next there is grey plastic wrap with "LifeBatt Production" on it, next there is lifeBatt sticker placed on the top.
Ypedal, when you have a good look on pictures you can see that some of them show cells with LifeBatt sticker other with BMI sticker. Private labeling?? At the bottom of my pack it says BMI Group of Companies.
So BMI is a group.
MC
 
Intersting there are barcodes showing under grey wrapping
covered.

yes, I've seen that before too. Lately I've been working on a custom built micro-controller based multiple voltage battery charge/discharge controller. I'm using an 8-channel 12bit adc to give current and voltage readings to the controller and using PWM FETs and coils to controller the precise voltage and current. My idea is to have a fully programmable, charging/discharging station I can use to measure and test the batteries with. I'm sure there are such products on the market, but this'll be mine. My intent always has been to be able to perform my own independent testing of cells for use while marketing them and for my own use in design. For those interested, I'm using the Parallax Propeller which gives me plenty flexibility and functionality. I'll release some more info the community when it's more fully developed.

I'll use the controller for fully testing these (and other) cells to attempt to verify some of the claims.
 
After close look ,
bar code is on naked aluminium cell , next there is grey plastic wrap with "LifeBatt Production" on it, next there is lifeBatt sticker placed on the top.
Ypedal, when you have a good look on pictures you can see that some of them show cells with LifeBatt sticker other with BMI sticker. Private labeling?? At the bottom of my pack it says BMI Group of Companies.
So BMI is a group.

Gosh, it's like some big elaborate puzzle and we all have bits and pieces of it!
 
BMI appears to be BMI Group of Companies namely:pSI/LifeBatt.
Almost for sure they are all the same cells coming from the same production line.
Changing anodes or any component of the cell for different production runs?
Unlikely.
Private labeling is common practice in industries. Example: Nortel Tel phone is not really made by Nortel Tel.
Can be made by Sanmina in Canada and labeled there.
Why I should dig farhter into it?
Bottom line is when I opened pack I saw state-of-the art enginnering and assembly.
Enclosure is first class with 2 sides aluminum for better cooling.
However micro controller is not encapsulated like on other picture, don`t even try to touch VMS board without ESD strap, never know. They also forgot to remove tape from buzzer during assembly , that's why it was not loud at all.
When I look at this pack I am wondering how it is going to survive riding in Canadian winter, it is automotive pack after all.
At minus 10Celsius I will lose close to 30% of capacity. Real killer from my winter riding experiences is taking battery from subzero right into plus20C warm, condensation is real danger. Milwaukees survived quite good all winter riding but I always gradually warmed up bicycle by keeping against open doors for a while before pushing into warm shop.
mcstar,
I like your idea of independent testing .
As we all see, Sandia tests don`t reflect any EV use at all.
MC
 
BMI appears to be BMI Group of Companies namely:pSI/LifeBatt.
Almost for sure they are all the same cells coming from the same production line

How do you know this micro13car? I've heard from people that work directly with BMI that this is not true... granted I've never been to Taiwan so I don't know first hand, but I wonder what leads you to believe that PSI (the company) is the same as BMI and why do you think their cells are the same? I know that LifeBatt is definitely a separate company from BMI and only distributes their cells with a custom label. It seems that there used to be (perhaps) a company in Taiwan named Lifebatt, but I'm unsure what became of it, if it still exists.

BTW, the distributor in AU, is also NOT working for Lifebatt. He's also an independent distributor for BMI, but he does not rebrand their cells.
 
That`s why I wrote "almost",
I haven`t been to Taiwan also.
BMI is a group it says right on my enclosure.
Group of what, PSI, - anybody know?
Pictures don`t lay , if you see cells with BMI and LifeBatt logos at the same factory so what do you think?
They are from same factory. Rest is speculation.
MC
 
The most I've drawn from LifeBatt was 1680W and 48A.
Under 48A voltage sags to 35V , so is below 3V/cells.
Voltage sag is real life indication of performance of cell.

I just did a test on my 36v headway pack Min V was 35.1 at 86A.
It is a 20ah pack so its just just over 4c.

Kurt.
 
dimitrib90 said:
What could I get for $4000? I really really really need a 70.4V 60ah battery for no more than $4000. I was thinking lifepo4 on ebay.

You're using these for a motorcycle, right? Why not use ThunderSky? 24 x 60 Ah cells w/BMS and charger for under $4K. These work well, have put 28 of the 90 Ah cells on a bike, so 24 of the 60s shouldn't be too bad, and will give you 180 amps all day long (well, not all day, or course). Can peak to 10C - but nobody is saying how long peak is. How much current do you need?
 
I'm using HI POWER cells 48 volts at 60 ah at 150 amps my sag is about 5 volts. My packs are 16 cells in series and 54 hot off the charger. For the first 30 ah the batteries stay over 50 volts unloaded and go down to about 47 volts under load. Then they stay between 48 and 50 for the finale 25 ah the lowest I've seen at after 50 ah is 41 volts under full load. I have over 2500 miles on the batteries. They are a lower cost alternative that has work for me.

Mark
 
Hi Power are Lithium Ion Polymer if I am not mistaken. BMI are Lithium Iron Phosphate.

Don :mrgreen:
 
Don Harmon said:
Hi Power are Lithium Ion Polymer if I am not mistaken. BMI are Lithium Iron Phosphate.

Don :mrgreen:
you are mistaken they are lifepo4

got to believe you been to there web site an expert such as yourself

http://www.chinahipower.com.cn/
from the web site:
SHANDONG HIPOWER NEW ENERGY CO.LTD. is located in the beautiful Hi-Tech Zone of Zaozhuang in Shandong Province. With the world-class production equipment, a total investment of 330 million and a floor area of 330 Mu, they try to build Hipower the largest lithium iron phosphate power battery production base in China. And with the entry of some famous experts they have built a strong team


Best
Mark
 
AAAAAAAH Yes, the Chinese Hipower - yes I have seen their website. I was confusing them with "Hi-Power" as sold by Battery Space: http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3140

My cornfusion - sorry :mrgreen:

Best
Don :mrgreen:
 
Patrick said:
dimitrib90 said:
What could I get for $4000? I really really really need a 70.4V 60ah battery for no more than $4000. I was thinking lifepo4 on ebay.

You're using these for a motorcycle, right? Why not use ThunderSky? 24 x 60 Ah cells w/BMS and charger for under $4K. These work well, have put 28 of the 90 Ah cells on a bike, so 24 of the 60s shouldn't be too bad, and will give you 180 amps all day long (well, not all day, or course). Can peak to 10C - but nobody is saying how long peak is. How much current do you need?

They wont work for me. I have studied Lithium E1 and that is the power that I need for my bike which is 90 ah. The only problem is that continuous discharge is 1C maybe 2C and I need at least 3C for with my 60 ah battery to get to speeds of 75 mph and STAY at 75 mph for a considerable distance of about 75 miles (distance traveled in a day). I could always charge them when I get to my school but Im not 100% certain that they would let me. I was thinking that a 70.4V 60ah battery would do make it but now I am having serious doubts. :(
 
I charged my batts at school. But... I didn't really have to get their permission since 3 12V 12Ah lead batts are a bit more inconspicuous. :)
 
The electric "Jozzbike" has a claimed range of 30 miles and can do 80mph. I'm not clear that he can get that range at that speed though. From what I can gather, he appears to have 30Ah at 72V (in the video he points to one 72V pack and says it's 1/3 of his total amount). He's using the early PSI or Lifebatt cells and a Perm PMB-132 motor. He claims to have comparable performance to the stock ICE engine. I'm guessing he has about 66 10AH cells total. You might need closer to 120 cells if you really want that much range though. I know a fellow that's working on a motorcycle with that many cells. I could get you that many BMI cells for a very reasonable price. PM me for more details.

I've linked to it on my blog...
http://www.vistarwebtech.com/vistarwebtech/ebike/

Here's the information on the motorcycle conversion using BMI cells

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6972
 
As I understand it, PSI was the original manufacturer of the cells that BMI/LiFeBatt used (the ones sent to Sandia...). LiFeBatt has a marketig relationship with BMI, but most of the R&D investment comes from BMI. They were the ones that did the design for the 4-cell modular HPS packs, and they are the ones who designed the 4-channel VMS board, which can be daisy-chained together, and connected to a vehicle management computer.

At some point last year, BMI/LiFeBatt worked out a deal to get the better quality powder from Phostech, the patent holders. Around the same time, PSI had some management/financial problems. Sometime this year, BMI supposedly hired most of the PhDs/engineers away from PSI and have built their own manufacturing facility. The "grey" cells come from this new production line. Initially, I think the "mix" of the grey cells was pretty much the same as the "green" PSI cells that LiFeBatt originally sold. All of the green cell stock that LiFeBatt had leftover her, and in the UK, was recalled, and all of the HPS packs that have been sold use the BMI-produced grey cells.

I believe that once BMI has tested a new mix that does, in fact, allow the 10Ah cells to have a bit higher "C" rating, but I'm not sure these ever went into production. The 20C rating is all marketing hype. Even the original PSI-produced LiFeBatt cells/packs had 20C ratings. These are honestly 10-12C cells, period. Not too long ago, Phostech/BMI came up with a new mix which basically increased the capacity to 14Ah, in the same package, and with the same 10-12C rating. I had heard thatone of LiFeBatt USA's big potential customers switched their HPS order to use this new "mix", because they wanted the extra capacity.

From what I understand, PSI is still cranking out the original "green" cells, which are still quite good, I might add (I still use two 12-cell 36V/10Ah packs isn series on my wife's Townie...), but that since they don't have the the R&D resources anymore, they won't be making any improvements. Anyway, this is why companies like Cyclone-TW are selling them, and why they have this guy Raymond actively selling them to whoever wants them. These are priced quite low, but then you run into the shipping cost issue.

-- Gary
 
Lol.. it's like a big conspiracy hehe..

I communicate with Raymond regularly, waiting on the latest lego and bakelite end plates for these cells.. i asked about BMI and got a vague reply along the lines of

" You can order from BMI if you like, same cells as PSI, if you wish you can request material by phostec, more expensive and higher capacity ,, 11ah "

one more ah and higher C rate that i don't need for the premium price tag( I don't know the price, have not asked yet, but i find the greenies to be just dandy for my needs !!! )
 
GGoodrum said:
As I understand it, PSI was the original manufacturer of the cells that BMI/LiFeBatt used (the ones sent to Sandia...). LiFeBatt has a marketig relationship with BMI, but most of the R&D investment comes from BMI. They were the ones that did the design for the 4-cell modular HPS packs, and they are the ones who designed the 4-channel VMS board, which can be daisy-chained together, and connected to a vehicle management computer.

Correct, PSI was the original manufacturer of the cells that BMI/Lifebatt uses. However the original R&D investment which came from BMI has long ago been paid back and BMI does not even exist as far as being a Taiwanese business entity. Whatever relationship they have - they have with PSI and BMI is simply a broker with headquarters in Hong Kong. It was LiFeBATT who pioneered the HPS Packs and holds the patents on the tooling and the VMS board which is now in it's 5th generation of firmware.

At some point last year, BMI/LiFeBatt worked out a deal to get the better quality powder from Phostech, the patent holders. Around the same time, PSI had some management/financial problems. Sometime this year, BMI supposedly hired most of the PhDs/engineers away from PSI and have built their own manufacturing facility. The "grey" cells come from this new production line. Initially, I think the "mix" of the grey cells was pretty much the same as the "green" PSI cells that LiFeBatt originally sold. All of the green cell stock that LiFeBatt had leftover her, and in the UK, was recalled, and all of the HPS packs that have been sold use the BMI-produced grey cells.

It was LiFeBATT who worked out the Licensing arrangement with Phostech Lithium and BMI has NO part of that deal. Furthermore, it was LiFeBATT who hired most of the scientists and engineers away from PSI and have built their own manufacturing / assembly facility. BMI has no mfg. facilities whatsoever in Taiwan that I am aware of ? The 10 Ah Grey Cells were, and still are made by PSI, and the only difference is the Label that is on the cell whether it is LiFeBATT or BMI. There never was any "recall" and all of the stock that was previously made in the Green color was sold off to China and some to other Taiwanese companies primarily for use in car starter batteries.

I believe that once BMI has tested a new mix that does, in fact, allow the 10Ah cells to have a bit higher "C" rating, but I'm not sure these ever went into production. The 20C rating is all marketing hype. Even the original PSI-produced LiFeBatt cells/packs had 20C ratings. These are honestly 10-12C cells, period. Not too long ago, Phostech/BMI came up with a new mix which basically increased the capacity to 14Ah, in the same package, and with the same 10-12C rating. I had heard thatone of LiFeBatt USA's big potential customers switched their HPS order to use this new "mix", because they wanted the extra capacity.

LiFeBATT is currently testing a new Phostech mix that will be used in our new 12 Ah LiFeBATT Cells. This formula is available to us in an Energy mix and a Power mix which we will offer both for the new 12 Ah 40138 LiFeBATT cells. We have made 5,000 of each version and are in testing at the moment before we go into production of these in late December, 2008. These new cells will be a LiFeBATT exclusive product and there are no plans to make them available under any other trademark (including BMI) at the present time. LiFeBATT is now working on a new 15 Ah Cell for EV's which will be available sometime next year but it will be a different size (slightly larger) and will showcase a new HPS Pack configuration. We are also woking on a new e-bike specific product line which will be unveiled in the first quarter of 2009 and will feature a "plug & play" product line including BMS, LVC & a unique line of case configurations.

I believe that PSI is still cranking out the original "green" cells, which are still quite good, I might add (I still use two 12-cell 36V/10Ah packs isn series on my wife's Townie...), but that since they don't have the the R&D resources anymore, they won't be making any improvements. Anyway, this is why companies like Cyclone-TW are selling them, and why they have this guy Raymond actively selling them to whoever wants them. These are priced quite low, but then you run into the shipping cost issue.

PSI is still cranking out the original "Gey Cells" (which have replaced the green cells) and they are still quite good, but not a pure Phostech Lithium product. They (PSI) will not be making any improvements that I am aware of and they never did produce anything other than cells - so there are no cases, VMS, LVC, or other products that PSI makes for a complete battery solution. The "Raymond" that you mention (Raymond King) is now working for LiFeBATT and is no longer associated with PSI or BMI. Furthermore, LiFeBATT has no association whatsoever anymore with BMI. We do still have a vendor relationship with PSI for the 10 Ah "Grey Cells". They are priced (and have been for quite awhile) the same from PSI as from LiFeBATT. The only difference is LiFeBATT does not sell loose cells because we offer a "plug & play" solution with a 3 year warranty.

I hope this clears up the misconceptions that I have seen being bandied about on this Forum for sometime now.

Settin the record straignt,

Don Harmon :mrgreen:
 
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