Burbany (Vancouver) scooterbikes confusion

[sk8norcal]

here we go again...

E-bike rider tired of 'path' rage

Pedestrians and drivers think Burnaby man's e-bike is a motorized scooter

A Burnaby man wants the public to know electric bikes are not scooters, and they have a rightful place on cycling paths.

Greg Schmidt lives in the BCIT area, and for the past two years, he's been commuting to Vancouver via the Central Valley Greenway on his electric bike. Because his bike looks more like a motorized scooter, Schmidt has been misunderstood by motorists, cyclists and even pedestrians.

"There have been numerous occasions where I have been yelled at or questioned as to if I'm allowed to be on the path with my e-bike," Schmidt said. "I've been yelled at by motorists as well. If you are on the road, - some people think you ought to be going faster. I was told by one guy, 'Get on the sidewalk.'"

That hostility came to a head recently, after Schmidt ran into a man who swore at him. When they crossed paths again last Monday, the same man flicked a cigarette at his bike.

"It totally caught me by surprise. That was the first time there's been any serious altercation," Schmidt said. "If I was on a regular bicycle, I don't think it would have been an issue. - I'm pretty sure he doesn't like the fact that it's a scooter on the sidewalk. It perceived as that way."

Now Schmidt carries a camcorder and has the Burnaby RCMP on speed dial.

"I'm hoping I won't have to use either, but violent actions out of ignorance should not be tolerated," Schmidt said.

Schmidt's e-bike runs on electricity and has a maximum speed of 32 km/h. It's classified as a motor-assisted bicycle, and there's no insurance or licence needed.

Schmidt has to ride his e-bike on cycling paths and along the side of the road, like any other bike. He's hoping his story will raise public awareness about e-bikes and the fact they are allowed to go everywhere bikes do.

"They may look a bit different, but they are supposed to be there, and they are allowed to be there," Schmidt said.

Burnaby resident Gordon World has run an e-bike shop in Vancouver for the past six years, and he's familiar with Schmidt's plight.

"It's not so much an issue in Vancouver. There are just not as many people riding in Burnaby," he said. "In Vancouver, it's gotten to the point where they're virtually mainstream."

The negative reaction usually comes from "bicycle purists" or misconception, according to World.

When the Olympics were on, for example, police from other areas, who weren't familiar with road rules for e-bikes, were ticketing people when they shouldn't have, World said.

"Again, it was just a misconception," he said. "I understand when the unit looks like a motorcycle, but you have to look very carefully."

There are a few differences to watch for: e-bikes have pedals, they are virtually silent, and they are usually labelled as a "power-assisted bicycle."

World's advice to his customers is: Ride within the law and be respectful.

http://www.twitter.com/JenniferMoreau

Read more: http://www.burnabynow.com/travel/bike+rider+tired+path+rage/5834855/story.html#ixzz1hPHF9mSF

 

[neptronix]

I don't see pedals on that thing. A bicycle has pedals, that's how we define it in the 'states..

Gee i wonder why people are getting it mixed up. Scooter tires. Scooter bodywork. Scooter lights. Scooter suspension, how ignorant of them to not see it as a bicycle

 

[sk8norcal]

nep, look harder,
he's got those useless unsafe bogus pedals on...

that's why its classified as a bicycle...
but its really a LEV.... :|

ebike dealer says,
"It's not so much an issue in Vancouver. There are just not as many people riding in Burnaby," he said. "In Vancouver, it's gotten to the point where they're virtually mainstream."

I wonder how true that is...virtually mainstream ??
seems to me more Canadians are buying scooterbikes for cheap transport vs Americans...
not sure why this is...
they don't seem popular here in the Silicon Valley...

 

[Ykick]

I saw one model that simply kept the pedals under the seat. The idea being you put em on when you needed to pedal and/or appease cops.

Personally, I'm conflicted about these scooter style ebikes. I don't want to judge by looks but it's hard to get the eyes to see a bicycle when it looks so much like a damn DOT street scooter!

 

[Alan B]

What do those electric scooters weigh?

US FHWA CSC says an electric bicycle weighs less than 100 pounds, power less than 750 watts, speed less than 20 mph, as I recall.

So perhaps in the US these are not legal electric bicycles.

I do see them in California however, near the College campus. They do poorly on hills however.

 

[SamTexas]

This is one example of taking advantage of the written law. The manufacturer puts on practically useless pedals and limits the top speed. That's just business.

What's ironic to me is the consumer. The fact Greg Schmidt is surprised when people got confused tells me that Schmidt is either a liar or an idiot. A normal human being would never buy that vehicle and expect it to be recognized as an electrified bicycle.

25kmh and 250W limits not withstanding, I think Europe got it right with their pedelec requirement. No pedaling, no going.

 

[Alan B]

Laws vary, and they are probably technically legal there.

Too bad the laws are so inconsistent and the definitions so variable. That is part of our problem. When folks see electric scooters, some of which weigh up to 300 pounds, on a bike path they want to ban ALL electrics. So those electric scooters do a lot of harm to the ebike movement.

 

[SamTexas]

Laws vary, and they are probably technically legal there.

They are technically legal here too (assuming they weight 100lbs or less).

 

[Ykick]

Weight would seem to be an obvious threshold for regulation and pathway use. China has already adopted something along that line to regulate eBikes. Trouble is, how would weight be enforced and what about cargo bikes? They can reach 100's of lbs rather quickly so...

JohnCR made some very good arguments for scooter ebikes in previous threads and 'found myself agreeing with most points. I would love it if people could just get past the "look" and realize they're still a better alternative than ICE versions. Reality is the "look" does promote a strong reaction about these vehicles.

 

[Alan B]

Problem is the "look" drives the politics. So the reality doesn't matter so much. If we lose the politics, we lose the bike priveliges.

 

[dogman dan]

At least he DID keep the pedals on the bike. But you insist on riding one of those, get used to the crap that goes with it.

I get it that it IS a bicycle, not a moped. But nobody else will. Gonna be funny when he does make that call, and the misinformed cop starts writing the tickets, then the judge ignores the law and fines him.

The law is one thing, and what people, including cops and judges do, is another. Since I like to pedal anyway, I just find looking vaguely like a regular bike to be the way to go.

 

[gogo]

What do those electric scooters weigh?

US FHWA CSC says an electric bicycle weighs less than 100 pounds, power less than 750 watts, speed less than 20 mph, as I recall.

So perhaps in the US these are not legal electric bicycles.

I do see them in California however, near the College campus. They do poorly on hills however.

For purposes of highway funds allocation in TITLE 23 > CHAPTER 2 > § 217, the Fed's definition is:

(2) Electric bicycle.— The term “electric bicycle” means any bicycle or tricycle with a low-powered electric motor weighing under 100 pounds, with a top motor-powered speed not in excess of 20 miles per hour.

Cool beans! You can have a 100 pound motor, and as long as you're pedaling there is no speed limit. So as long as your motor isn't more than 100 lbs., the Fed definition isn't any more restrictive than any state law that I've seen.

 

[MadRhino]

Here they are not bothered when they ride the street. even when obviously overpowered. On the bike path, they can be perfectly legal and still be harassed. A friend of mine has one and he was fed up with the perception that he had from other users and police on the bike path. I took off the 86 pounds of lead batteries from it, and overpowered it with 20s Lipo and a big controller. Now he rides the streets in peace.

I don't know about elsewhere, but here the bike paths are full of slow moms and "zigzaging" kids. Even with a plain pedal bike, I don't feel I belong there.

 

[sk8norcal]

At least he DID keep the pedals on the bike.

why? he would look smarter if he take those off...
(or if he's really smart, maybe he puts on those crank just for the article.. )

I saw one model that simply kept the pedals under the seat. The idea being you put em on when you needed to pedal and/or appease cops.

now that's smart thinking....

I don't know about elsewhere, but here the bike paths are full of slow moms and "zigzaging" kids. Even with a plain pedal bike, I don't feel I belong there.

same around here,
the paved walking/bicycle paths here are meant for exercise walkers and slow sunday bicyclists.... typically winding curves cause straight is boring...
real cyclists get their exercise on back country roads...

scooterbikers need to take their bogus pedals off (for safety)
and stay off narrow recreational bike paths and sidewalks in general ,
its just good etiquette..

but I think they are acceptable on "very wide and straight" bike paths,
none like that around here, I see them in LA...

anyways, I do like scooterbikes, and I feel they should be allowed more power, be able to share the bike lane, and not forced to run bogus pedals...
a good cheap transport alternative...

 

[sk8norcal]

I took off the 86 pounds of lead batteries from it,

are you sure ? that's a lot of lead...

three 12v12ah is around 30lbs

which model ?

 

[yikes123]

This is one example of taking advantage of the written law. The manufacturer puts on practically useless pedals and limits the top speed. That's just business.

What's ironic to me is the consumer. The fact Greg Schmidt is surprised when people got confused tells me that Schmidt is either a liar or an idiot. A normal human being would never buy that vehicle and expect it to be recognized as an electrified bicycle.

25kmh and 250W limits not withstanding, I think Europe got it right with their pedelec requirement. No pedaling, no going.

Perhaps you need to brush up on your riding skills. It has pedals. there is no noise from gas motor, it goes slower, it has ELECTRIC on the back.... dude, time to up the IQ

 

[sk8norcal]

this is funny,
even a retailer thinks they shouldnt be classified as a bicycle...

“The electric scooters are in limbo right now. There is an improper regulation for them to be classed as a bicycle, it’s silly.”

another Canadian story,
are there lots of DUI's in Canada ?

http://www.goldstreamgazette.com/news/138164024.html

If only he hadn’t removed the pedals.

On Feb. 2, Terrell Hall will be sentenced for driving while prohibited. The offence dates back to Dec. 24, 2010 when Victoria police Const. Andy Dunstan pulled him over on Belleville Street.

Hall was driving an electric scooter, which typically doesn’t require registration, licensing or insurance. For this reason, it’s known as the official vehicle for the DUI community, meaning those who’ve lost their driver’s licences for driving under the influence.

So Hall was within his rights to ride an electric scooter. He goofed, however, when he removed its pedals, thereby changing the scooter’s classification from bicycle to motor vehicle.

Dunstan sees it often. As a traffic cop, he scans the roads for scooters that have no licence plate or no pedals.

“A lot of people are taking these off,” said Dunstan. “People buy electric bikes but find the pedals get in the way.”

While convictions for this type of offence are rare, confusion over the regulations present many problems.

Although classed as an electric bicycle, electric scooters look almost identical to gas-powered scooters, such as the Vespa or the Honda Jazz.

“We sold electric scooters in the early days and then we got out of selling them,” said Michael Stevulak, of Scooter Underground, a retailer in Victoria. “Mainly there were quality concerns … The other thing we didn’t like was the clientele was pretty much just taking the pedals off which made them a non-conforming vehicle.”

When he first started selling them, he was surprised to see “all these macho guys buying these little wimpy electric scooters.”

Sure enough, Stevulak said, “these guys were all people with licence suspensions and they wouldn’t have been able to keep their job if they weren’t able to move around.”

People don’t ride electric scooters for fitness reasons because the machines aren’t good to pedal, he explained.

“Half the electric scooters you see buzzing around Victoria right now probably have the pedals removed,” said Stevulak, who estimates there are more than 500 on the roads in the region.

Electric scooters are allowed on the Galloping Goose regional trail, but Stevulak questions it.

“The electric scooters are in limbo right now. There is an improper regulation for them to be classed as a bicycle, it’s silly.”

The message hit home for Stevulak a few years ago, when he sold his first electric scooter to a woman, with much media fanfare.

“My phone started ringing off the hook as she was the woman who, about a year earlier, had killed a cyclist and had her licence suspended … I had no idea.”

From a police perspective, the problem is one of education about the regulations.

Police mostly give warnings when they pull over these offenders, rather than fines or charges.

“We are pretty generous,” Dunstan said.

And he’d been generous to Hall two years ago when he pulled him over for the first time and gave him a warning. When he pulled Hall over a second time that same day, however, he laid charges. Hall pled guilty Dec. 6, 2011.

 

[MadRhino]

are there lots of DUI's in Canada ?

Probably. I was wondering why, as normal scooters do smell gas, E-scooters do smell boose.

 

[Arlo1]

Burbany lol is that a little word play? lol

 

[sk8norcal]

edit,
oops, repost....
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26763&start=45#p547248



ocean city, new jersey
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/press/cape_may/ocean-city-woman-will-fight-again-for-electric-bike/article_652715a6-6a6a-11e1-9225-001871e3ce6c.html

her "electric bicycle"....
http://www.x-tremescooters.com/electric_bicycles/xb700li/xb700li.html

Denise Baj is fighting with Ocean City police over her right to ride what she says is an electrical bicycle.

 

[Phoebus]

Perception is reality.

If it looks like a bike, it's a bike.

If it looks like a scooter, it's a scooter.

 

[shock]

^ could not have summed it up better