CALB 70 AH Advice for newbie

Stevesie

10 mW
Joined
Jun 15, 2012
Messages
34
Location
Australia
Hi folks, long time lurker, first time poster. I'm considering a 4s brick of CALB 70Ah cells to power my canoe trolling motor. Due to illness I'm really struggling lifting 27kg of lead into the boat. I hope to use my 6 amp lab power supply to charge them. I have a couple of questions, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Will these suffer from extended(ie 6-8months) time sitting unused in a fully charged state? They might only get used a few times a year. I would paddle, but suffer from a disablity.

What is the best way to keep them balanced? These will be used in a marine environment so the less electronics that are fitted to the battery the better. I'm happy to use a small voltage alarm/s, I can waterproof that pretty easily.

Thanks ! :)
 
I assume they're lead acid batteries? If so a float charger is the best way to store them. If that's not practical then fully charge them and check the terminal voltage regularly (once a month maybe) to make sure they don't deep self-discharge (rates vary wildly from battery to battery).
 
Apparently CALB is a 70 ah lifepo4 prismatic cell.

They should store fine, and have years of shelf life. Just make sure nothing is trickle discharging them. If they need balancing, you could bring up the lower v ones individually with an inexpensive RC lipo charger, using the lifepo4 setting and 1s setting.

.3c discharge rate? that's pretty lame. Maybe he should just talk to pingbattery about a 12v 40 ah with 40- 80 amps capability. I would have thought those cells were at least good for 1c.
 
Thanks for the fast replies. My understanding is that they are rated for 3c continues 10c pulse. I'd be interested if they are really .3c! Absolute max amp draw is 32amps when not moving, although, if the prop hit weed I guess it could go much higher for a short period.

If I don't go too close to 100% DOD should they stay well balanced?

http://en.calb.cn/product/?id-115.html SE070AHA is the battery.

Cheers
 
Hmmm link above states .3c, the one I have says 3c http://ev-power.com.au/webstore/index.php/12v-lifepo4-batteries/large-lifepo4-cells/se070aha.html
 
Link I found for somebody selling them didn't even specify the c rate. Typically stuff like that had been 1c or maybe 2c.

Cut all c rate claims in half of course, as always. :wink:

Same guys that recomend .3c, 18 amps also say you can do ten seconds of 700 amps. I'm going to guesstimate that 1c would be fine, allowing about 70 amps from that size.
 
I would have thought that 1c would be ok. I will be running mostly at around .4c or less. That should be fine, shouldn't it? I will email the vendor anyway and see what they say.

Still not sure which way to go for balance protection(oops, that was addressed, thanks dogman)

Thanks for all the help, it's much appreciated!
 
Another option is 3 of these http://ev-power.com.au/webstore/index.php/12v-lifepo4-batteries/12v-lifepo4-batteries/12v-20ah-lifepo4-battery.html in parallel.
 
Calb is thundersky etc large format prismatic - it's fine for 3C - 10C will kill it in short order though. Self discharge over time is extremely low, I have some stored 2 years plus with no discharge at all. You need a BMS and the usual lifepo4 limits apply - 2.5 LVC 3.6HVC.
 
For all I know Calb and Thundersky are not exactly the same in terms of cycle life and also the charging cut off voltage is different, Thundersky cells can be charged up to 4 volts before cutoff and have cycle rate of 2000 cycles to 80 DOD and 3000 to 70% DOD
Calb has 1000 cycles to 80% DOD and can be charged up to 3,65 volt like regular LiFePo4, they do have slightly better c rate in practice ( less voltage sag under load ) but like you say, when your motor is only using 0.4 C or about 250 - 400 watt max this is not so important.

I personally use Thundersky 4 X 12,8volt 20 Ah bricks in series( not in production anymore, only in 40, 60 and 90 Ah nowadays ) and I can tell that these are preforming very well for me ( 2,5 year old and 300 cycles or so ) and still give the rated capacity of 20 Ah, I abuse them a bit at max 2 C cont. ( rated 1 C and 10 c burst ) or 2000 watts.

Nice feature is that you don't really need a fancy lithium charger, a regular cheap lead acid charger is good enough because of the higher -then -normal charging voltage, most cheapo lead chargers charge to 14,5 - 15 volt cutoff, exactly when the Thundersky is 98 % full.
I do use a lithium charger to 14,2 volt cutoff, but it's nice that it isn't a must have.....

For your use you can buy the 90 Ah variant or put 2 X 40 Ah together for 80 Ah, the 90 Ah variant is 15 kilo's with a lot more usefull energy than cumbersome lead acids, happy to get 40 amphours out of a slightly used 80 amphour leadacid, besides of breaking your back getting them on and off the boat

( PS: they are for sale if interested for half normal price +/- but don't know where you are located )
(PPS: this is not a sales talk, I'm just impressed by these batteries and wanted to share, for low power setups they are excellent )
 
Thanks for the new ideas. I'm in Australia, there is a vendor here that sells the Thundersky "12v" bricks. 2 of the 40ah units could be a good option, I could use an anderson connector and seperate them for lifting into the boat; only 7kg each. I have heard that they sag a bit under load, but maybe that's not an issue at .4c. I'm sure the sag would be less than the lead acid anyway. The CALB 70ah were attractive as they appear to be a more current cell, hopefully with improvements, but that's just speculation on my part.

Where are the Thunderskys on sale?

Cheers!
 
The 12V modules don't run a BMS, but are OK if you don't drag too much out of them.

There has been a bit of chat in regards to the 4V charge limit on the thundersky batteries - a lot of people reckon its pointless, as the surface charge burns off very fast - its an upper limit, not a recommendation. Some crappy BMS'es will allow the voltage to get that high.

For low C rate applications, you will get the rated lifetime and capacity easily. Your lead acid is rated at a 20 hour rate - your losses from the lead will be greater, meaning you don't need as much capacity. The larger the capacity you go, however, the less likely you are to need balancing.

The vendor that sells the 12V bricks won't have any in stock :)
 
There has been a bit of chat in regards to the 4V charge limit on the thundersky batteries - a lot of people reckon its pointless, as the surface charge burns off very fast - its an upper limit, not a recommendation. Some crappy BMS'es will allow the voltage to get that high.

Of course it is totally pointless and probably a lot better to stop at 3,6 volt like regular LiFePo4, from 3,6 up to 4 volt is maybe 5 wh energy more and you burn that off in the first meters of your ride, but that's why I charge them only up to 14,2 / 4 cells is 3,6 volt per internal cell.
When I just had my cells for a few months, I went for a ride but got lost ( just moved to another area ) and my ride was longer then planned, Actually I drained 20,8 Ah out of the blocks :oops: but still no performance loss, huge sag or anything....probably very close to the famous lithium knee but not there yet, so they are a bit underrated also, never happened again, stupid mistake on my part and luckily they charged up like fresh cells.

About the voltage sag, when I pull 2000 watt for longer periods like 5 minutes on a long incline, voltage will sag about 7 volts from a 50% charged pack, that is for 4 blocks in series from 53-ish volt to 46-ish volt, amp draw little over 40+.

I can try to see what the sag will be at 400 watt for you when you want, I can regulate the output via speedict and take for a spin if interested and post the outcome for you.

Most important especially with these unregulated 12 volt blocks is to leave some safety charge in them I think, only drain them for 80 - 90 % max. of their rated capacity, the internal cells will become unbalanced if drained to much too often and that will likely kill these and there is no BMS to regulate that, just with any lithium cell of whatever chemisty, balancing is ( almost ) not needed when you leave some energy in it.... drain is pain.

On the other hand, lead starts degrading the moment you put a load on it and, capacity wise, becomes worse and worse every time you drain them even to 50 % state of charge, if you leave it for a couple of days like that a noticable loss in capacity will be your part, and before you know it you are carrying dead weight on you boat. ( 3 years at most ) I know this first hand because my uncle also has a lead acid powered canoe and has to change the battery every few years, told him to get lithium, but high initial price puts him off.
This summer I bring my thunderskies and he can bring his 2 leadies, one 60 ah and one 80 ah, take 2 of his canoes and have a showdown haha, I know the outcome hands down, my 80 Ah will crush his 140Ah..... my canoe will plane :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Oh one other thing, when storing almost every lithium battery for a longer time, charge it between 50 and 75 % , not full not empty and keep them cool, they live longer that way.

Oh one other other thing, a cheap celllog ( hobbyking / dealextreme ) can monitor your voltage and can be set to scream @ you when your voltage gets critical, Turnigy watt meter is also very handy ( hobbyking ) to see what you have drained from the battery, both very cheap < 40 dollar total.

I'm from Belgium BTW.
 
Thanks Truusje79, I'm looking forward to being lead free, that's for sure! I built a turnigy watt meter into the PWM controller unit that I made for the trolling motor. It's a cheap motor so it only had the basic resistor speed controller that wastes half your power unless you are going flat out. I reckon a cellog will be the go for LV alarm. Thanks for the offer of checking voltage sag, don't go to any trouble, I'm sure it's going to be than the lead acid I currently use!

The issue you raise about storing the batteries at 75% is the one thing that concerned me. Because I have an illness and also unpredictable weather, I tend to go out in the boat with little notice. So I sort of need the batteries to be full and ready to go any time. At best I can probably stuff 12ah into them before heading off using my current charging setup. I don't mind if storing them at 100%SOC decreases cycle life, but I don't want to lose capacity. They might only get used 5 times a year, at best. They'll be obsolete before they are even run in! :mrgreen:
 
If the battery is 70Ah and kept at 75% SOC, putting 12Ah into it short notice will take it to 64.5Ah stored. That's got to be enough for a trip? Or store it at 80% and you can get it to 68Ah before setting off :)
 
Yep, in theory I should be able to stuff enough charge in there before I head out. I'll keep an eye out for a beefier power supply in the meantime!
 
I picked up the cells from the post office today. They feel incredibly light after lifting the lead acid; much more managable.

One question: Is a bulge of 1mm normal on new cells? I will make up end plates and strap the pack again(it's been strapped already by the dealer, but without end plates).
 
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