Cargo bikes with load in front

[John in CR]

After an absolutely maintenance free year (other than fiddling with brakes all too often before going hydraulic) using these bikes daily, now I'm ready for something new and capable of bigger and more convenient loads.

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I recently ran across these Dutch bakfiets (box bikes)



I feel that I've got to build something along those lines. Sure they're a bit too boxy, but I'd want to dress it up with curved surfaces anyway for better aerodynamics, especially in side winds. I can just see our family of 5 with luggage loading up on an ebike like the long one and heading to the beach for vacation. First, I need to build a daily use version.

I really like the idea of the load in front and low, but my concern is about handling. I'm not talking about 10mph like these are typically used as pedal bikes. I'd want safe and solid at 25-30mph with kids aboard, and at least 40mph with me and groceries like I do now. Has anyone here used a similar bike, and gone down a hill?

John

 

[amberwolf]

What about a trike version? Like the Christiania I think it's called?

I'm about to start such a project, intended as a tadpole cargo trike for long range. It won't be fast like yours since the laws here prohibit that, but no reason it couldn't be made faster by changing the motor's pulley or chain ratios (in my case) or using hub or other motors (in your case).

There's some info on it's concepts in the ARTOO thread in my sig.

 

[John in CR]

I've thought about a trike, and then I wouldn't even have to worry about any kind of stand when stopped. There's just no way with anything more than pedal speeds with kids aboard a trike due to the inherent instability in turns. I'll feel much more comfortable turning on two wheels, plus single track makes for a much smoother ride on our roads.

A leaning delta trike is definitely on my list of "want to try someday", but that will definitely be a sport bike, not a load hauler.

John

 

[dogman dan]

I can't imagine those being good at higher speeds. Just too much weight for that speed i'd think. But then niether was the delta trike, ( schwinn meridian) I have. Turns had to be slow, but at 25 mph, any kind of steering to avoid a broken bottle or whatever got hard to do. And if the edge of the road sloped at all, you got pulled real hard into the ditch by the geometry of the trike. Eventually I turned the trike into a two wheeled stretch cruiser.

Why not a longtail, like a mundo , big dummy, or extracycle. Even a homemade from two bikes frames.

 

[John in CR]

That's kinda what I have with the blue one. I took a mountain bike, welded the pivot, and extended the length 16" to end up with a 62" wheelbase. I want to try something new, and I figure the Dutch know what they're doing regarding useful bikes, and I really like the idea of the load in front. Imagine the batteries I can pile in there.

Whatever I do will be built, not bought. I'd use a cylinder mold method using very thin plywood, epoxy, and fiberglass for the "box", which would be built onto the steel skeleton for a very rigid construction without too much weight. I have a couple of motorcycle frames, so I'd use that for the headset and fork along with the pivot and swingarm for the rear suspension. I know I'd want to go with more rake in the head tube, and do the remote steering differently.

I posted on the off chance that someone had ridden one of these things, and to point out some interesting useful bikes. I'm of the opinion that a new type of ebike is needed, the SUV of ebikes, and once you add a motor many of the issues limiting pedal only bike design go away. The answer is definitely not a scooter looking ebike designed for street congestion in China.

 

[amberwolf]

I've thought about a trike, and then I wouldn't even have to worry about any kind of stand when stopped. There's just no way with anything more than pedal speeds with kids aboard a trike due to the inherent instability in turns. I'll feel much more comfortable turning on two wheels, plus single track makes for a much smoother ride on our roads.

A leaning delta trike is definitely on my list of "want to try someday", but that will definitely be a sport bike, not a load hauler.

I was thinking of the tadpole trike, which with all that weight up front would be a lot more stable. Especially since you could set it up as a tilter/leaner, so that the normal leaning into turns would assist in keeping the wheels on the ground.

I doubt I can manage a tilter/leaner the first time around, but it's part of the eventual plan.

 

[mabman]

This is an excerpt from an interview with Jan Vandertuin of Eugene, OR who has been making similar bikes for years:

"Now there is a shop in Portland that is importing Dutch cargo bikes—bakfiets—from Europe.

It seems to be the normal thing in the States to import everything we need, because we want things cheap and now, but it’s my belief that it’s always beneficial to go local, and that it will pay big time in the long haul, I mean long run."

For more on Jan and his work go here: http://hpm.catoregon.org/

 

[John in CR]

Thanks Mabman, I did already look at the Metrofiets website in Portland. They took the dutch design and beefed it up a tad including a larger front wheel to help prevent speed wobble. They do stick with that steering rod that snakes around the box area, which can't be good at speed.

 

[mabman]

The Portland effort and the one in Eugene I noted are somewhat different. Jan in Eugene has been championing this concept for many years and even holds workshops on their construction. I have never seen nor heard of one that was motorized however to know how they handle at speed?

 

[amberwolf]

They do stick with that steering rod that snakes around the box area, which can't be good at speed.

If instead you had a welded-to-the-fork rod that stuck out and back and down at say, 45 degrees in each of those directions, with a rose/heim joint on it's bottom end that then fed back to a completely straight version of that steering rod, it would probably be stronger.

To ensure the steering rod itself doesn't bow, you could put it thru a series of rings or loops on the frame, probably increasingly oval in cross section to accomodate the sideways movement it would have at the front during turns.

 

[Russell]

I think I'd stick with the tried and true rear loading. How about a Madsen instead?




http://www.madsencycles.com/bikes/




-R

 

[dogman dan]

Now that's a cargo bike!

The main issue I see with the trikes and heavy loads is that John hauls ass. So for that two weels, and perhaps a trailer for cargo might be best.
I'm talking upright trikes, I know recumbents can haull ass.

 

[John in CR]

They do stick with that steering rod that snakes around the box area, which can't be good at speed.

If instead you had a welded-to-the-fork rod that stuck out and back and down at say, 45 degrees in each of those directions, with a rose/heim joint on it's bottom end that then fed back to a completely straight version of that steering rod, it would probably be stronger.

To ensure the steering rod itself doesn't bow, you could put it thru a series of rings or loops on the frame, probably increasingly oval in cross section to accomodate the sideways movement it would have at the front during turns.

I'm thinking cable or bike chain. Since my box will be permanent, I can run them and their pulleys inside the box inside a tube. A steering cable for boats could be a simple solution too.

Also, it's looking like a good implementation for a 2wd with one of my big hubbies on front as the primary drive, since I need strength in the headset and fork anyway. Then a helper motor geared very low on the rear for hill climbing assist. I can see front drive being really beneficial and probably safer if I go to an 80" or so wheelbase. I manhandle my current long one around frequently and it will be even more necessary with a longer one. I can see a 30lb hub motor wheel up front, and 30-40lbs of batts very low up front built into the box should be a big help in cross winds with light loads. Also, nice clean curves presented to the side winds should be a huge benefit.

Look at the enclosed motorcycles like the Peraves MonoTracer, and imagine a cross between that and the bakfiets using a rear elevated pilot like the bakfiets. That's the moving target I have in mind right now.

John

John

 

[John in CR]

Use your imagination in combining these two with room for 2 adults and 3 kids.

 

[moore.sean]

you could email this guy:

http://tomscargobikes.com/Home_Page.html

I ran across his "build your own" page a couple days ago.

 

[grindz145]

I'm building an Xtracycle build right now which will have a whole lotta batteries in the back, as well as be capable of well over 30MPH. Ill let you know how it handles