Charging/Storage Tub

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May 12, 2009
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Wanted to share some photos of a battery charging/storage container I made based on suggestions from forum members. I had a metal ice chest for serving beverages outsdoors which was somewhat decorative and a great size for storing two downtube batteries. I added 3 inches of sand into the bottom of the tub and leveled it, and then cut a piece of sheet metal to cover the sand which is just caulked into place. I try to keep it in the middle of a tile floor away from anything else. Not as good as a plastic bag suspended over a pool of water, but a little extra security. Here's a link for similar metal tub: Robot or human?


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Come to think of it, maybe it would be better to just fill the bottom half of the tub with some sturdy plastic containers full of water?
 
Since this has no lid, there's not anything to actually contain the fire. It will direct all flames and reflect heat upward, but that's all I can imagine it doing.

It might be better than having any flames shooting out to the sides and directly igniting other objects, but the flame and heat above it (especially contained in this particular fashion) is likely to be at least several feet high, enough to ignite the walls up higher and the ceiling. Battery fires are typically intense and quite hot, and unless the cans of cylindrical types rupture and blow the pack into pieces scattered around, are likely going to burn tall, wide, and hot. Cylindricals will probably vent out the cap end, "blowtorching" in that direction. Prismatics and pouches will probably burn less directionally but may rupture out the edges (particularly where terminals exit).

it's not like a gentle BBQ heat....for ebike-sized packs it's probably more like a blowtorch flame the size of a person. :(



Come to think of it, maybe it would be better to just fill the bottom half of the tub with some sturdy plastic containers full of water?
If you intend for the plastic to melt once a fire happens, and let the water out, you should probably use very thin plastic bags (like crappy ziploc clones) packed around and on top of the batteries instead, so that the fire doesn't have to burn down to the plastic container, then heat it up enough to melt (with the water on the other side absorbing energy making this take longer) and let the water out.

Also consider you would need enough water or other extinguishant to cover the fire and prevent oxygen ingress to feed it, and absorb enough energy to damp the fire down, keep it from spreading, etc.

There are various posts and threads discussing possible fire containment options over the years, with assorted options including the one you note of melt thru a bag holding the battery above a pool of water (swimming pool, pond, etc) and others that chose sand in bags above the batteries so that when the bags melt thru the sand comes down onto the fire and smothers the batteries. The latter requires enough gap above the stuff to be covered so the pile building up can't block or slow down the flow of sand, and a big enoug bag of sand to guarantee completely covering the items that might be on fire (probably quite a lot of sand to make a guaranteed "mountain" over it all).


Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, almost none of the methods discussed here and elsewhere have ever been tested in a real emergency. If someone that has access to a bunch of trashed identical or very similar packs they could use them to test as many containment methods as possible, once a good reliable method of igniting the packs internally has been created.
 
Wanted to share some photos of a battery charging/storage container I made based on suggestions from forum members. I had a metal ice chest for serving beverages outsdoors which was somewhat decorative and a great size for storing two downtube batteries. I added 3 inches of sand into the bottom of the tub and leveled it, and then cut a piece of sheet metal to cover the sand which is just caulked into place. I try to keep it in the middle of a tile floor away from anything else. Not as good as a plastic bag suspended over a pool of water, but a little extra security. Here's a link for similar metal tub: Robot or human?


View attachment 370752View attachment 370753
it's metal.
 
Since this has no lid, there's not anything to actually contain the fire. It will direct all flames and reflect heat upward, but that's all I can imagine it doing.

It might be better than having any flames shooting out to the sides and directly igniting other objects, but the flame and heat above it (especially contained in this particular fashion) is likely to be at least several feet high, enough to ignite the walls up higher and the ceiling. Battery fires are typically intense and quite hot, and unless the cans of cylindrical types rupture and blow the pack into pieces scattered around, are likely going to burn tall, wide, and hot. Cylindricals will probably vent out the cap end, "blowtorching" in that direction. Prismatics and pouches will probably burn less directionally but may rupture out the edges (particularly where terminals exit).

it's not like a gentle BBQ heat....for ebike-sized packs it's probably more like a blowtorch flame the size of a person. :(




If you intend for the plastic to melt once a fire happens, and let the water out, you should probably use very thin plastic bags (like crappy ziploc clones) packed around and on top of the batteries instead, so that the fire doesn't have to burn down to the plastic container, then heat it up enough to melt (with the water on the other side absorbing energy making this take longer) and let the water out.

Also consider you would need enough water or other extinguishant to cover the fire and prevent oxygen ingress to feed it, and absorb enough energy to damp the fire down, keep it from spreading, etc.

There are various posts and threads discussing possible fire containment options over the years, with assorted options including the one you note of melt thru a bag holding the battery above a pool of water (swimming pool, pond, etc) and others that chose sand in bags above the batteries so that when the bags melt thru the sand comes down onto the fire and smothers the batteries. The latter requires enough gap above the stuff to be covered so the pile building up can't block or slow down the flow of sand, and a big enoug bag of sand to guarantee completely covering the items that might be on fire (probably quite a lot of sand to make a guaranteed "mountain" over it all).


Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, almost none of the methods discussed here and elsewhere have ever been tested in a real emergency. If someone that has access to a bunch of trashed identical or very similar packs they could use them to test as many containment methods as possible, once a good reliable method of igniting the packs internally has been created.
Yes, it will let heat out of the top. The ceiling and upper walls will still be exposed to very intense heat with this rendition. The taller the ceiling and greater the room volume the better. Better than nothing? It is absolutely better than setting everything around it on fire at once.

But tupperware containers full of water in the lower half is perhaps enough volume to quench or at least smolder a lithium battery fire and buy time. The plastic will be burning on top but the temps should be reduced for at least some time.

Thinner plastic would be better from the prevention perspective but it raises the shorting risk.
 
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A few thoughts….
- Water and aqueous firefighting solutions are the most effective way to fight a li-ion fire. The water helps cool the cells below the thermal runaway threshold temp, stopping the reaction, and is more than adequate for putting out the “conventional“ fire from the plastic separator/wrap of the cell, organic solvents, and any battery pack packaging that keeps going once the cells stop being in runaway.
- Trying to block oxygen from reaching cells in runaway won’t work since the cells carry their own oxygen (in the metal-oxide materials in the cathode). They will still burn underwater.
- Since there is no metallic lithium in conventional rechargeable li-ion cells there are (almost) no bad reactions with water. Minor reactions can occur with some of the combustion byproducts but those are tiny, TINY, compared to what else is going on with a cell in runaway.
- Sometihng like “cling wrap” or other thin replaceable plastic covering a large basin of water (in the metal box) would work well. The plastic would easily melt and let the pack drop into the water, preventing embers and probably loose cells from rocketing around the room. A hinged lid (NEVER LATCHED SHUT) could then be closed once the fire was noticed.
- The smoke/gases MUST be allowed to easily escape (to prevent the box from blowing open) but everytihng else can be contained and the large amount of water will help to bring the cells below runaway threshold temps ASAP and prevent all the other parts of the pack from catching fire.
- Charging outside (away from pets and children) is a much better idea though. Cleaning toxic soot from EVERY single square inch of a room (and everything in it), or rooms, is a really lousy way to spend a few days.
- A pack dropping inadvertently into the water won’t short-circuit but don’t reach into the water to get it. Pour the water out, shake the excess water from the pack with insulated gloves on, put the pack aside for a couple of days, and then carefully take the covering off the pack to inspect it…ALL OF IT. Corrosion is a big issue here.
 
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