Cheap bso trike - 20" vs 24", how to power it front hub or m.d.?

[calab]

Are there any major differences between a 20" and a 24" wheeled tricycle for adults 6' 250lbs riding gravel back alleys hauling not much I can figure out the power I need, I figure 1-1.5kw whether hub or mid drive, weight is not of concern, at most 40lbs if ever more likely 10-20lbs and I know there are more people over 300lbs riding around.

Biggest factor I can figure is stopping every 30'

Hills not a factor, winter might be a factor as there is more ice in the back alleys so diy studs and might switch over to motorcycle rims if flats and diy studs force me to a heavier, more solid tire.

I know they are top heavy, not meant for speed or cornering. Its not a cruising trike, be way to combersome dealing with stupid frocks all the time with a wide trike that I deal with on a daily basis on normal bicycle.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Chalo]

Definitely front hub is the way to go, unless you're climbing grades so steep they can only be taken at a crawl.

Use the lowest RPM geared front hub motor you can get a hold of, with the lowest voltage battery you're willing to deal with. Trikes like that become treacherous above 10 mph, and infeasible by 20. Limiting speed is a point in favor of 20" wheels instead of 24".

Also, 20 inch wheels are less likely to collapse in use when they're made from compressed garbage like department store trikes are.

With hills not a concern, and high speeds not even on the menu, you won't need anything close to 1kW nominal power. Consider something like the surplus Jump bike motor laced into a 20" wheel and running on 36V/22A. That would give you a fair amount of pull off the line, but be all spun out by 15 mph or so.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

If you really think you may mount motorcycle rims I would consider a Worksman mover trike with 20" wheels. These have WTC steel rims that are a claimed 50% thicker than normal Bicycle rims supporting 11 guage moped spokes (i.e. 2.9mm diameter spoke compared to standard 14 guage bicycle spoke which is 2.0mm diameter).

As you know 20" Bicycle rims have the same bead seat diameter as 16" moped rims and 16" x 2.25" moped tires are interchangeable with 20" x 2.125" bicycle tires.

 

[dogman dan]

If you get a low rpm motor, the wheel size won't matter too much, even 26". 10t wind in a typical nine continent type DD motor. You could keep 26" rear wheels and just do 20" front, by simply putting a longer fork on it. But 26" will be fine with the right motor.

Yes, worksman trike vs the schwinn, if it needs to really carry a lot of weight. But you can also re lace the schwinn wheels with a better rim for similar results, if you find one of those on the cheap. A worksman or Sun will be stronger than a schwinn frame, but the schwinn frame is not bad. Its just got cheap rims on the schwinns.

One cool thing about the trikes, if you are keeping the speeds really low, you can turn most anything into a trailer for it to pull. I used to load up to 500 pounds in the standard garden wagons, and then drop the handle over a board bolted to the trike basket. Short hauls, the condos where I worked were a 1/4 mile square. So the max haul to the dumpster was half a mile. We also did a lot of putting a 35 gallon trash can in the basket.

E-bikekit still sells the low rpm front motor ideal for trikes. They put it on a lot of the trikes they sell at E-Trike. Some of them Sun trikes, some Worksmans. In a 26" wheel its max speed is 15 mph. The stock controller is 36v, and if there are no big hills, its been known to do the trick for 500 pound loads. Starts and stops do tank your efficiency, but you can carry a big ass battery in that basket, or in a front basket.

 

[Chalo]

If you really think you may mount motorcycle rims I would consider a Worksman mover trike with 20" wheels. These have WTC steel rims that are a claimed 50% thicker than normal Bicycle rims supporting 11 guage moped spokes (i.e. 2.9mm diameter spoke compared to standard 14 guage bicycle spoke which is 2.0mm diameter).

Those are great if you want your wheels to be really heavy, but not so great if you want them to be strong or reliable. Those steel rims have strength-to-weight ratios that are a small fraction of double walled aluminum rims', and thick spokes don't stay tight until they corrode and get stuck (which they eventually do because they're made of plated regular steel).

The thicker the spoke, the less load a wheel can carry without disassembling itself. So extra-thick spokes like that are ideally suited to not being used at all. It's what they're best at.

The rims don't work well with rim brakes because they're rounded on the sides, with no flat braking surfaces. And of course Worksman trikes don't have any provisions for disc brakes.

Worksman trikes have sturdy frames, are handmade in NYC, and have excellent spare parts availability. On the minus side, they're crude, expensive, and very heavy. I think one of the reasons they work so well in industrial plant settings is that nobody is especially interested in taking one home.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

If you really think you may mount motorcycle rims I would consider a Worksman mover trike with 20" wheels. These have WTC steel rims that are a claimed 50% thicker than normal Bicycle rims supporting 11 guage moped spokes (i.e. 2.9mm diameter spoke compared to standard 14 guage bicycle spoke which is 2.0mm diameter).

Those are great if you want your wheels to be really heavy, but not so great if you want them to be strong or reliable. Those steel rims have strength-to-weight ratios that are a small fraction of double walled aluminum rims', and thick spokes don't stay tight until they corrode and get stuck (which they eventually do because they're made of plated regular steel).

The thicker the spoke, the less load a wheel can carry without disassembling itself. So extra-thick spokes like that are ideally suited to not being used at all. It's what they're best at.

The rims don't work well with rim brakes because they're rounded on the sides, with no flat braking surfaces. And of course Worksman trikes don't have any provisions for disc brakes.

Yes, I do understand all that. It is true that when the wheel is under load the spokes at 6 o'clock and 12 o'clock can go loose (while the ones at 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock go tight)..... if the rim is flexible enough. When this happens the spoke threads can back out of the nipples and then the spokes become progressively looser. This puts more of the load on the remaining spokes that are tight until they break at the elbow (from fatigue).

However, if the rim is sufficiently stiff enough this is not a problem. Remember Jobst Brandt (in his book, The Bicycle Wheel) only said flexible rims with thick spokes were a bad idea. He never was against stiff rims and thick spokes. Fact is thick spokes make a wheel more radially stiff and laterally stiff. With that mentioned my particular preference (for any given rim stiffness) would be more spokes that are butted. 48 butted spokes could provide the same lateral and radial stiffness as 36 non butted spokes while increasing reliability.

Yeah, too bad we couldn't get 48 hole hubs for these various Delta/granny trikes which use an array of axle diameters from 15mm to 25mm.

P.S. The Worksman mover trikes use drum brake on the front and coaster brake on the rear. They don't use rim brakes.

 

[Chalo]

Remember Jobst Brandt (in his book, The Bicycle Wheel) only said flexible rims with thick spokes were a bad idea. He never was against stiff rims and thick spokes.

Weight for weight, single walled steel rims rolled from sheet metal are much less stiff than an extruded aluminum box section.

P.S. The Worksman trikes use drum brake on the front and coaster brake on the rear. They don't use rim brakes.

True. I've worked with and modified dozens of Worksman trikes and I'm very familiar with them. But a hub motor needs to use something other than a coaster or drum brake. The options for front hub motors are rim brake, disc brake, or (rarely) roller brake.

Here's a machine I helped design and build that uses six Worksman Adaptable trikes in its construction:

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Remember Jobst Brandt (in his book, The Bicycle Wheel) only said flexible rims with thick spokes were a bad idea. He never was against stiff rims and thick spokes.

Weight for weight, single walled steel rims rolled from sheet metal are much less stiff than an extruded aluminum box section.

No doubt, but vintage mopeds (from the 70's, etc.) commonly used single wall steel rims and thick spokes together and were Ok doing that.

 

[Chalo]

Weight for weight, single walled steel rims rolled from sheet metal are much less stiff than an extruded aluminum box section.

No doubt, but vintage mopeds (from the 70's, etc.) commonly used single wall steel rims and thick spokes together and were Ok doing that.

The Honda C50 Super Cub weighed 152 pounds empty.

The hubs were constructed for thick spokes and their required tension.

Point is, we can do better, and it will probably work out cheaper and easier as well.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Yes, worksman trike vs the schwinn, if it needs to really carry a lot of weight. But you can also re lace the schwinn wheels with a better rim for similar results, if you find one of those on the cheap. A worksman or Sun will be stronger than a schwinn frame, but the schwinn frame is not bad. Its just got cheap rims on the schwinns.

He actually wanted the moto rims so he could mount moto tires (which are thicker and heavier) in order to make his DIY studded tires:

Hills not a factor, winter might be a factor as there is more ice in the back alleys so diy studs and might switch over to motorcycle rims if flats and diy studs force me to a heavier, more solid tire.

Unfortunately 26" and 24" bicycle rims (BSD 559mm and 507mm respectively) don't have any moto tires for it. Well they do but they are extremely expensive (over $200 each) and meant for restoring very old vintage motorcycles. That leaves 20" (BSD 406mm. Same as 16" moto rim) as the only choice AFAIK. Edit: I think 19" moto rim (BSD 484mm) with 19" x 2.25" moto tires would be close enough to fit a 24" bike. 19" moto rim with 2.25" round profile moped tire should have an outside diameter of roughly 23.5". In contrast to running 2.25" tires on a 19" moto rim to fit a 24" bicycle there are no moto options for a 26" bicycle. Even a 21" moto rim won't work for a 26" granny trike because all the options there are too wide and would also end up too tall. So yeah the OP was right in limiting his choices to either 20" or 24".


Not sure what to say about the Schwinn Meridian frame, but this video complains about the Schwinn Meridian 15mm axle bending:

https://youtu.be/z6_NHC2b_Ao

And here is a thread from someone else discussing their bent Schwinn Meridian axle:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bikewrench/comments/mkt6sv/schwinn_meridian_rear_axle_bent_and_is_that_a_hub/ (The OP has a gif posted in the thread showing the wobble from the bent axle.)

My guess is that the Schwinn Meridian doesn't use a good steel or heat treatment on their axles. So it appears the problem with the Schwinn Meridian goes beyond just the rims and the wheel build.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Calab,

If you choose a mid drive I would make sure you get a stiff and strong rear axle as a mid drive will only further increase the chances of the axle bending.

With that mentioned remember even small increases in diameter can dramatically increase the stiffness of a cylinder. (Re: stiffness increases to the fourth power of the diameter increase.)

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Two more posts warning about the Schwinn Meridian axle being weak:

https://motoredbikes.com/threads/finally-got-out-of-the-neighborhood-with-predator-212cc-stock-on-meridian-trike.58301/page-14#post-542801

I built an e-trike using the Schwinn Meridian as a base unit; inexpensive, but a total mistake. As for the wheels, you'll probably never find any upgrade unless custom built. The axle has a unique d-shape, no keys, and impossible to find any hub that will slide on the axle properly. I ended up drilling out the hub holes, buying new rims and drilled them larger, and relaced the wheels using 12 gauge spokes. That stopped the spokes from breaking, but I was still limited as I had to use the original hubs.
As for that crazy d-shaped axle, another disaster. It is only 15 mm diameter (5/8") and quite weak. Even though on the online reviews I noticed that several people complained about axle breakage I thought it wouldn't happen to me. It did, at 25 mph in front of traffic from both directions. Luckily I got out of that one without so much as a scratch, but I took the remnants home, disassembled the bike, and sold the metal for scrap. I have no desire to ride something that obviously wanted to kill me.
If you have the resources, it's best to use an industrial tricycle that is built to handle 5 or 6 hundred pounds. I am using the Worksman right now; it has 11 gauge spokes, a 7/8" axle, and a frame that can take it.

https://motoredbikes.com/threads/finally-got-out-of-the-neighborhood-with-predator-212cc-stock-on-meridian-trike.58301/page-15#post-544751

I own a Schwinn Meridian with the 26" wheels and with a Staton, Inc. kit with a Honda 1.5 hp engine. The 2 factory Schwinn trike weak links are the rear axle which has been commonly known to break on either side where it has been machined down from 17mm diameter to about 13mm. They eventually fatigue and break at the wheel hub, this is before adding any motor, just as a peddle bike. The next issue is the stock single wall alloy wheels and very light duty hub. The fixes are to get a Husky full length 17mm axle, (a direct bolt in, no mods needed). Also, I had Husky build me 2 rear 26" x 2.125 double wall alloy wheels with 11 gauge spokes and large flange hubs that have enough surface to bolt a sprocket onto if you're going that route. When trikes break axles at any speed they violently throw their riders unexpectantly and broken bones or worse is the result. Having my Motorized trike for a couple years now and I'm ready for more power but going with a larger Honda or Huasheng that will bolt up to the Staton transmission. Stay safe! Build them safe!

Good news is that as the second post points out a Husky 17mm axle is a direct bolt in.

P.S. As the second post points out the stock Schwinn Meridian rims are, in fact, single wall aluminum (see image below which I got from page 5 of the linked thread)

 

[calab]

A few questions

Are there different sizes for the side mounted hubs or is it standardized?

What is steering tube size on those cheap trikes?
By looking at the stem of the aluminum framed 24" tricycle from walmart I see a squared headset so threaded 1"
Same with the $300 steel 24" trike I got my eyes on from an importer of junk selling retail.

Not so important question one thing thats at the back of my mind and I dont know how to detail it in words but is there such a thing as an xtracycle style tricycle kit or some home made thing that can easily be attached and detached? Maybe I am thinking more of like an adult sized training wheels. If I could have something like that for $100 in materials depending on the wheels I use I could go for that but the deal breaker is getting off and on the bike every 30', or every 90' because I can ride up right next to the bin and look in if every 3 are easily accessible and every fourth is not.

I personally think a 2wd rear would be pretty awesome in the winter in the icy back alleys, but I really do not know if the rear axle could handle the force. There would need to be some fab work to set up the rear with a hub but easy with a mid drive. I have ridden front hub for some time and its a real bitch trying to get going on ice on regular tires, even trying to maintain momentum on ice is tough, to much side to side action with regular knobby mtb tires with no studs.

There is more meat and more stiffness on the motorcycle tire for diy studs on a cheap used motorcycle tire. The key is to place the studs correctly having a balance between just enough and not to many so they dont wear out on the dry surfaces. Winter is almost over here, the last 2 weeks its all melted.

I am cheap so won't be buying any new motors.

I went through the pile of ebike stuff, and I only really have a 2-3kw mid drive that needs new steel gears. The other stuff is dark colored windings. This past summer I had installed that mid drive on the same bike I have now, but the chain kept popping off and jamming. The bottom bracket better be normal on those cheap trikes.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Are there different sizes for the side mounted hubs or is it standardized?

If you use the 17mm Husky axle you also have to use the Husky hubs due the way the drive hub attaches to the axle

 

[calab]

[youtube]RBtWd_Ghurg[/youtube]
https://www.bicycledesigner.com/trike-parts/hollow-hub-trike-conversion-kit---black.html
Seems a bit cheesy with the moveable axles and the screw nut axle gear. Maybe 550w would start twisting it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dJP2sks-kM

Not so important question one thing thats at the back of my mind and I dont know how to detail it in words but is there such a thing as an xtracycle style tricycle kit or some home made thing that can easily be attached and detached? Maybe I am thinking more of like an adult sized training wheels. If I could have something like that for $100 in materials depending on the wheels I use I could go for that but the deal breaker is getting off and on the bike every 30', or every 90' because I can ride up right next to the bin and look in if every 3 are easily accessible and every fourth is not.

This is the one I got my eyes on, nutted stem nut so 1" fork needed if I were to swap it out, pedal axle look like old school 1 piece, plastique pedals most likely. I will have to limit the 2-3kw motor with a 1kw controller. I am going to try and find a used trike for half the price that is fairly new, save some money to put towards a tesla battery module or sumtin.

 

[LewTwo]

Every time a thread comes up about Trikes, my mind wonders back to a time when I was working for my rich Uncle Sam in remote Alaska (Air Farce, DEW line). We had a full track vehicle called a "Trackmaster". It was basically an overgrown snowmobile with an enclosed cab and darn good heater. It was built on a Ford Econline running gear from the 170CI six cylinder engine to the rear brake drums. Each side had a separate brake master cylinder connected to hand levers. When you wanted to go left you would pull on the left brake. Want to go right then pull on the right brake. Simple and worked like a charm.

I keep wondering if there is not a way build a Trike with two rear hub motors and somehow manipulate the controllers to act like/simulate a mechanical differential.

Just a though from the perverted coffee grinder that passes for my mind....

 

[calab]

At first I was thinking of using one hub motor to power the rear axle, to much fabrication needed but 2wd on the rear would really be cool so mid drive is the way I am going, only because I have the kit not being used, never really was ever used. I had installed it once to try out for a month or two, it climbed like a mountain goat from a stand still on 20% grade. Gears made to much noise, people would hear me coming from a mile behind them. I had broken the flange and repaired the final reduction with a steel plate to help keep it sealed and tight when I tried to install it on my current bike, the story there was I had a steel plate being used for the pulley that binded the flange and broke the cast corner.

I went back to the classifieds to see if the old trike I saw a week ago was still available, I forgot the price they wanted if it was in the hundreds or pricier say in the 2's or 3's, but it was old and I did not find it. I did find a walmart Swhinn that was up for sale for $250 but that would be aluminum is my guess, but I really do want a steel framed trike so I can weld shit onto it.

One could engineer a tank like steering method with two hubs but again would need fabrication work unless you buy grintechs motors but I do remember qs selling side mounted hub motors. Even then you still need a welder and some welding skillzzz.
Single Sided hub - https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/motors/single-side-all-axle-hub-build.html
Through-Axle hub - https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/motors/m4040r-ta.html

 

[dogman dan]

Missed that bit about the studded tires. But you'd really only need studs on the front, driving wheel IMO. That is where your only useful brake is as well. I would suggest modify or replace the fork so you have a disc brake up front in icy conditions. If its that snowy, your rear end could skid around all it wants with a good front drive pulling it. And in that kind of conditions, only a fool uses brakes more than a touch. The rear could be skis even.

You betcha those stock schwinn rims are junk. Because the condos where I used two of them like small trucks had speed bumps, both trikes got new rims. After that, no more spokes broken.

As for the axles breaking, I can't count the number of times I said don't motorize those kind of trikes to go faster than 15 mph. Conversations with Jason Kraft led him to start selling the trike kit with the 10t motor, for 15 mph max at 36v. He now specializes in trikes, but mostly uses the sun trikes. They are similar to the worksmans, but better wheels than the scwhinn. Anyway, you don't bend the axles so fast if you ride them sensibly. We did have one axle bend slightly, but it never broke. Like I said, we WAAAAAY overloaded them every day. But for really big loads we bent up the wagon trailers.

So you might want to look at the sun trikes. For rear drive, you need a different type of trike that is hard to find. Amberwolfs mega trikes rear end uses this type of trike, which has two sets of forks in back, and an offset chain drive to one of them. He uses two rear hubs on his trike. Since the trike rear ends are steel, you could modify one with a fork added, but that eliminates any possibility of pedaling it at all.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I keep wondering if there is not a way build a Trike with two rear hub motors and somehow manipulate the controllers to act like/simulate a mechanical differential.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=114905&start=50#p1701159

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

2wd on the rear would really be cool so mid drive is the way I am going, only because I have the kit not being used, never really was ever used. I had installed it once to try out for a month or two, it climbed like a mountain goat from a stand still on 20% grade.

Two wheel drive sounds cool to me as well. 3 wheel drive too.

Is that a cyclone motor you have?

 

[calab]

It is from cyclone but I dont know precisely I was guessing 2-3kw.

I been looking for days for a 1" threaded fat fork, nothings available.
If I get the steel framed trike I could just weld a 1-1/8 head tube in front of the 1" head tube.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I been looking for days for a 1" threaded fat fork, nothings available.
If I get the steel framed trike I could just weld a 1-1/8 head tube in front of the 1" head tube.

These two trikes looks like they have 1” threaded fat forks:

https://www.amazon.com/Tire-Wheels-Beach-Cruiser-Bike/dp/B09J1WW51D/ref=asc_df_B09J1WW51D/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=532384505741&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13040334914752277659&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032050&hvtargid=pla-1460930114328&psc=1p

https://www.wayfair.com/outdoor/pdp/yinshan-furniture-inc-20-fat-tire-wheels-7-speed-tricycle-with-rear-cargo-basket-ynsh2507.html?piid=64336988#qyu7j3k2tzm-3

So they must be out there.

 

[calab]

I want a 1-1/8 inch head tube trike, some trikes would have a 1-1/8 trike but they arent going to be dirt cheap.
A step through trike with a bench style seat, very narrow handlebars for tight turns and will keep the pedals for show only
I like the fat tired trike :thumb:

These two trikes looks like they have 1” threaded fat forks:

https://www.amazon.com/Tire-Wheels-Beach-Cruiser-Bike/dp/B09J1WW51D/ref=asc_df_B09J1WW51D/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=532384505741&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13040334914752277659&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032050&hvtargid=pla-1460930114328&psc=1p

https://www.wayfair.com/outdoor/pdp/yinshan-furniture-inc-20-fat-tire-wheels-7-speed-tricycle-with-rear-cargo-basket-ynsh2507.html?piid=64336988#qyu7j3k2tzm-3

So they must be out there.

 

[Chalo]

If you use a triple clamp fork, the steer tube diameter doesn't matter. The stiffness and strength are in the fork legs.

Here's what I did with my Worksman trike. It wasn't electrified in this picture, but it has a front hub motor now.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Here is a steel fat bike triple tree disc brake fork for a 1" headtube:

(Would need 1" Threadless headset)

https://www.bicycledesigner.com/bike-parts/bicycle-forks/26x4-fat-tire-extra-wide-chopper-fork-black-1.html

This listing calls it a 26 x 4 fork, but by measurements it looks like it is not long enough for that size as there appears to be roughly 12.5" space for the tire radius. It would fit a 20 x 4" tire with about a 1/2" room to spare as a 20 x 4" tire typically has a 24" diameter and thus 12" radius.

Not sure what to make of the 5" measurement between the end of the fork. Typically this measurement should be 135mm. Then there is also the fork offset to consider which will affect trail if it is different than the stock fork's offset.