Close call with car; what's the law?

[jag]

Today I had a close call. A car had stopped for me, but a second car that I didn't initially see tried to speed by the stopped car. Luckily no damage. I had been stopped at the crossing and was riding slow so I was able to stop in front of car 1. The woman in the second car saw me at the last moment and amazingly managed to come to a tire screeching stop also. She was gesturing angrily towards me for the trouble...

I was curious to who would have been at fault in a collision. (Not that it would have helped much of course had I ended up on the hood of a car... but anyway the curious wants to know). Alberta traffic code says that passing a car stopped for a pedestrian in a cross walk (street corner or marked cross walk if in the middle of a road.) is penalized by $575 and 4 demerit points. I didn't find anything about a bicycle in this particular situation, so I suspect that the driver might not be at fault.

Another possibly ambiguous situation: Edmonton has quite a few shared pedestrian and bike paths. In some places where these cross roads there is a flashing yellow warning light instead of regular traffic light. Pedestrians come up to the crossing, press the button, light starts flashing and cars are then supposed to stop/yield for the pedestrians. (But they may pass immediately after the pedestrian crossed). Now, it is not clear to me if one can use these and then ride across, or one has to dismont. To further confuse things, at some path-road intersections yield signs are posted expressively for cyclists, presumably entailing that once can cross without dismounting. At a few others it says bikers have to dismount. But the vast majority has no indication to dismount or not.

 

[dumbass]

Today I had a close call. A car had stopped for me, but a second car that I didn't initially see tried to speed by the stopped car. Luckily no damage. I had been stopped at the crossing and was riding slow so I was able to stop in front of car 1. The woman in the second car saw me at the last moment and amazingly managed to come to a tire screeching stop also. She was gesturing angrily towards me for the trouble...

I was curious to who would have been at fault in a collision. (Not that it would have helped much of course had I ended up on the hood of a car... but anyway the curious wants to know). Alberta traffic code says that passing a car stopped for a pedestrian in a cross walk (street corner or marked cross walk if in the middle of a road.) is penalized by $575 and 4 demerit points. I didn't find anything about a bicycle in this particular situation, so I suspect that the driver might not be at fault.

Another possibly ambiguous situation: Edmonton has quite a few shared pedestrian and bike paths. In some places where these cross roads there is a flashing yellow warning light instead of regular traffic light. Pedestrians come up to the crossing, press the button, light starts flashing and cars are then supposed to stop/yield for the pedestrians. (But they may pass immediately after the pedestrian crossed). Now, it is not clear to me if one can use these and then ride across, or one has to dismont. To further confuse things, at some path-road intersections yield signs are posted expressively for cyclists, presumably entailing that once can cross without dismounting. At a few others it says bikers have to dismount. But the vast majority has no indication to dismount or not.

I htink under your situation you would have had the same rights as a pedestrian.

 

[Zoot Katz]

It depends on the situation.
Were you operating your bicycle as vehicle on the road, walking across the intersection like a pedestrian or were you riding in a marked cross-walk?

If you were operating like a vehicle then driver #1, the "polite" one, should be dragged from the car and boofukt.

Driving makes people stupid, like driver #2, but the sight of a bicycle turns too many of them into total idiots.
Number one driver wouldn't have stopped to let another car turn or cross in front of it.

They were treating you like a child while obliviously setting you up for a collision.

'fukem all.

I do a partial dismount and kick scooter it when using pedestrian facilities like cross walks. but technically that's worth $258 in fines in Vancouver.
One $129 fine for "riding in a crosswalk" and another for "riding while not astride the bicycle".

 

[rhitee05]

In the US, my understanding is that you have (basically) the same rights as a car when riding the bike, and the same rights as a pedestrian if you dismount and walk it. So, you'd have to be dismounted to have right-of-way in a crosswalk.

Although, I suspect a cop wouldn't look favorably on driver #2 passing driver #1 regardless, since you could've as easily been a pedestrian and thus had right-of-way.

 

[jag]

I was riding across. Having read whatever I found on the web on Alberta and Edmonton traffic code and bylaws, it seems like Zoot is likely right. I would have been at fault. While if I had stopped and walked across, car 2 would have been at fault.

 

[Russell]

The best advice is when riding on roadways with your bike behave just as you would if you were driving a motor vehicle.

-R

 

[swbluto]

If there's the opportunity for passing and there are other drivers in the proximity, I usually just wave them on. I know the risk is far too high when you have to rely on multiple entities complying and only one of them is giving you a signal of kindness.

This actually happens to me kind of often when I'm on side streets waiting to cross a relatively busy one, and it does seem upsetting even though the intention is typically one of kindness. If the person would've just passed by, then the total system efficiency would've been maximized.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

If the person would've just passed by, then the total system efficiency would've been maximized.

man, it seems i get this every time, it's like some universal constant.
invariably it's the very last car in the pack that's the one to slow down to a crawl & eventually stop to wave me across,.
don't they have any clue that there's no one behind them??
if they simply cruised on by i'd have been across in less time than it took for them to stop & they would have been kinder to the environment in the process.

 

[Zoot Katz]

If the person would've just passed by, then the total system efficiency would've been maximized.

man, it seems i get this every time, it's like some universal constant.
invariably it's the very last car in the pack that's the one to slow down to a crawl & eventually stop to wave me across,.
don't they have any clue that there's no one behind them??
if they simply cruised on by i'd have been across in less time than it took for them to stop & they would have been kinder to the environment in the process.

I find that most annoying when making a left hand turn.
By the time the cell phone gabbers and stunned ones get by the next pod of traffic is accelerating and upon you.
The "polite" one just screwed up my timing. That's largely why I've stopped signalling left turns to opposing traffic.

At two-way stops I've sometimes sunk to screaming at the idiots who stop on their through street because they see a bicycle at the intersection.
I've learned that body language works better than screaming.
Dabbing, so they know you're stopped, and by not looking in their direction, seems to expedite traffic.
I've had to cross my arms over my chest before it fizzes on some of them that I'm not moving.
There's no way I'm riding in front of some stunned scud jockey that doesn't understand the basic Right of Way rules.
I've ridden around behind a few of the more obstinate turdpax.

 

[fechter]

Even if you have the right of way, if the second car can't see you because of the position of the first car, then it would be hard to totally blame them.

It's dangerous out there...

 

[retro]

Here's something on topic I found:
http://www.electricbikee.com/car-safety-onus-is-on-cyclists/
It sucks, but the one with the biggest stick wins.

 

[Zoot Katz]

Even if you have the right of way, if the second car can't see you because of the position of the first car, then it would be hard to totally blame them.

It's dangerous out there...

Yeah, I especially hate it when the "polite" one is driving a hulk that blocks my vision of the morons passing too fast in the other lanes.

Every intersection is a crosswalk, whether it's marked or not.

The dufus driving blind should be shot on the site of the collision.
It could have been a wheelchair or child that caused the other vehicle to slow or stop.

 

[Zoot Katz]

Here's something on topic I found:
http://www.electricbikee.com/car-safety-onus-is-on-cyclists/
It sucks, but the one with the biggest stick wins.

The big sticks in this example would be lawyers in a civil action, maybe.
There are plenty of bicycling lawyers in San Francisco and some of them work personal injury cases on a contingency basis.

Scud slob didn't get charged with a traffic violation but neither did the bicyclist.
He's lucky the driver stuck around. About 20% don't.
Hope he has witnesses.

I was backed into by a stunned one.
He said I rode into him.
The only witless fled when I approached them.
sux

 

[retro]

There's more! Check the links in that story.

 

[Zoot Katz]

There's more! Check the links in that story.

I did. There's nothing new to read.
We've been considered a road scourge for over 190 years.
Cyclists were buggy-whipped and have had things thrown at them since we began riding!
Get over it already. . . or get active.


(stick score! post 1111)

 

[max]

There is only one law to be honest..will i servive this ?(crosing)? if i havent been seen. If there is any dought dont do it.
All my life i have rode bikes on uk streats(and off) And it seems to me that im on my own out there. No road laws apply.
A road law cannot help you when your dead. So brake them at will. I have been run over by bikes in amstadam.Iv had white vans drive up onto paths to stop me over taking when he is stuck in trafic. then drive off.
Iv had 4 car doors opend on me(full on impact).Iv had a full speed side on hit from a car.i was turning right with arm out and he flasht me and speed'd up.

No laws..some of them dont use them.so in the thought proces time its safer to remove all laws and just use will i make it if thay havent seen me. That go's for riding on the path as there are always cars reversing out and peaple walkin out and children on scooters and low veacles riding out on me.
I will pull over and let cars over take.no waving on if its so tight there scared then i must use the law for the second car.
If im using the path i will Rap on my little bell non stop till im clear of tight corners or close high walls.(it only takes one 5 year old runing away from mom) the 1000w controler will have you up cort for mansloughter.simple as.

So no laws but these. I am the only one out there who can see me.
every car driver is on the phone and at the point of sleep.
These new laws i use have kept me clear of close calls so far.
Apart from animals.Birds just dont understand why a normal bike is riGHT ON THEM WTF flap flap WHACK wtf
Hehe
Hope some of that hellps.

 

[dogman dan]

Yep, the law of survival is the only one that really matters. In the US, in most places I believe, you have to dismount to be legaly using a crosswalk. So had you been hit, maybe both of ya get ticketed.

I kinda hate cars that stop for me. In a 4 lane road, stand there till both oncoming lanes have stopped. I'd rather they just went, and I''ll decide when its safe for me , thank you. Riding out in the road like a car can be safer, unless those f--kers are texting and never see you.

The flashy light crossings may be different, since it's designed for bike path crossings?

I have a lot of problems with my bike path where it crosses large intersections. People ignore the crosswalks walk signal completely for bikes or pedestrians, and right cross you. I pull out just enough to say hey I'm here, but only get my front wheel scraped, and point a finger( not the middle) at the driver about to turn. Coming the other way, for some reason the lights protect you from a left cross. Not the only light in town that is stupid.

 

[jag]

Overall, in Edmonton drivers are more polite and law abiding than any other urban area I've lived in. So for the most part following traffic rules is all it takes. But there are a few exceptions:

Even here there is a small percentage of complete maniacs. Have to keep an eye out for them. Here, while on one hand a bike is more vulnerable, we are also more attuned to the surroundings so a trained biker can pick up the tell tales of a maniac coming before a typical car driver. However, on a calm weekend morning, like yesterday's close brush with a car, it is easy to forget.

There are also a few situations where the best behaviour, rules or both are unclear: The yellow blinking light path crossings. Pedestrians clearly have right of way here, but I haven't found anything for bikes. In practice cars stop for both, so it is not a big deal. Just hope I'm not going to get ticketed for biking across.

Left turns while in traffic. I'm allowed to move into the left lane when making a turn. Few drivers expect this. For me it is a judgement call each time. Light or slow traffic I can often do it safely. In heavy traffic I just have to pull over to the right and use a light regulated crossing instead.

Stop signs in residential areas. Here drivers are justifiably cautious; there's a percentage of cyclists who run them. I try to make a point out of stopping and waiting until it is my turn. Might take a few seconds longer.

I try to avoid any aggravated gesturing or yelling. I think it has little effect anyway. Aggressive people may just become more aggressive, and for sensible people it is not necessary.

On the balance of things, in Edmonton cycling is fairly safe. I've had one bike and one car accident, but I probably bike ten to twenty times more trips than I drive. Some small steps could make cycling even safer, like improving some dangerous crossing, bike accessibility to suburban areas and in general making sure the city has bikes on their mind whenever they are planning. For bikers and cars maybe ad campaigns exemplifying right and wrong behaviour migth help a bit. We are saturated with DWI campaigns, but I don't see any effort to educate the public about the little mistakes that also cause accidents. 100 more DWI ads is unlikely to make fewer drunks take the car, but maybe 10 ads on more mundane, but common mistakes will correct some sensible drivers and bikers who are simply not aware that they are doing something wrong or dangerous.

 

[dogman dan]

Totally agree with everything you say. I want to signal those right crossers that my crosswalk signal says walk now, but not make em want to get out of the car and kick my ass. So gestures need to communicate, but politely.

Stopping at stop signs, I do it too, and people can't belive it.

Left turns on busy streets are a dilemma for sure. I try to do them anywhere but the intersection, and only get out there if I have the space. I'll turn left into a parking lot, then complete the manuver behind a store if possible. Then you still have to turn left, but hopefully in a place that is less high traffic. A right turn to a less crowded street followed by a u turn, then crossing the busy road going straight is another option. That one can be worth it in a car too, using 4 right turns circling a block to get to the left. I call it an LA left turn. If possible at all, find a completely different, more residential, or lower traffic route.

On the blinky crossing, never assume anybody is going to stop, EVER. I don't know about the ticket, here you have to crunch metal or pop a few rounds to get a cops attention.

 

[max]

I to stop at lights and use crosing's.But I still use my own laws.
At the crossing even if the first 2 cars have stopt i will asume there is a truck heading our way with a driver that is on the floor convalsing all over the throtle.
I have seen far to meany times a big truck hit a small car around here.The car just becomes part of the front of the truck and the truck will hardly slow down. So i always check the eyes off all the peaple in the car in front.i will look back as far as i can see up the street.eye contact is a must. I do jump off and push if the trafic looks bad( crossing's)
Mostly you will find me crossing the road telling peaple no with my head.I find if i dont look at them and make eye contact and sit there waving my head saying no (some times i sit up and fold arms)thay move on fast.
Like i said there is only 1 law out there. Asume there is a car coming at you always lol.
Dont forget peaces of plane are falling all the time.lol dont look up.
Ps i have had the police tell me to cycle on the road then when i said err have you seen the trafic m8.Thay then said it was ok to ride the pavement.
So even the police folow my laws.Do what you need to stay live and asume thay havent seen you always.

 

[rhitee05]

I was run off the road once a few years back at my old job. This was in one of the Boston suburbs, so drivers tend to be really aggressive. The road I was riding on was legally two lanes, but wide enough for 4 cars (just not quite wide enough to be legally striped as 4 lanes), with no sidewalks. Cars very commonly drove it as a 4-lane road. I was being a good little biker, staying close to the edge and out of the way when a particularly idiotic driver decided to pass double-wide right next to me. Fortunately I wasn't hit, but the close brush sent me off the edge of the road and over the handlebars onto an approaching driveway with some bruises and a sprained wrist for my trouble.

Lesson learned: be aware of your situation and don't be afraid to do what's necessary to keep safe. I talked to some of the more seasoned bikers at work, and they all agreed that the best thing to do on this road was ride 3-4 feet from the edge to force cars single-file. Urban bicyclists do a lot of seemingly crazy and sometimes blatantly illegal things, but a lot of them do make them safer. It's generally better to be assertive about your rights on the road when possible, or avoid the situation entirely when you can't. At least in the US, cops rarely bother policing bikers or bike-car interactions, so you're best off doing the safe thing even if it isn't strictly legal.

 

[chet]

This is the grave of Dan O Shay
He died maintaining his right of way
His right was clear, his will was strong
But he is just as dead as if he had been wrong.

 

[jag]

I was run off the road once a few years back at my old job. This was in one of the Boston suburbs, so drivers tend to be really aggressive. The road I was riding on was legally two lanes, but wide enough for 4 cars (just not quite wide enough to be legally striped as 4 lanes), with no sidewalks. Cars very commonly drove it as a 4-lane road. I was being a good little biker, staying close to the edge and out of the way when a particularly idiotic driver decided to pass double-wide right next to me. Fortunately I wasn't hit, but the close brush sent me off the edge of the road and over the handlebars onto an approaching driveway with some bruises and a sprained wrist for my trouble.

Sorry to hear. Did anyone stop and check if you were ok? Or was it just "bicyclist laying beside the road. not my problem"?

Lesson learned: be aware of your situation and don't be afraid to do what's necessary to keep safe. I talked to some of the more seasoned bikers at work, and they all agreed that the best thing to do on this road was ride 3-4 feet from the edge to force cars single-file.
It's generally better to be assertive about your rights on the road when possible, or avoid the situation entirely when you can't.

Being predictable always and assertive when necessary will help educate some motorists. But it is good to have an exit strategy when the car/truck behind comes within striking distance.

To get out of Edmonton to the south, the designated bike route is on residential streets, and often pretty quiet. However at peak traffic when the adjacent 8-lane slows down, some cars will try to speed through this neighbourhood street. The street has the usual speed restricting features including plant boxes, curb arrangements that narrow the lanes every now and then. These help keep the street quieter and safer for the residents, but are an obstacle for bicyclists. At the roadway narrowings I will either have to hog the lane or stop and wait. Hogging is ok with most drivers here, but only for brief moments.

In Sweden I saw these road narrowings designed to force cars to the left, but let bicyclists pass on the right. That would be a better idea, though cars might find it convenient to park and block the bike passthough.

Urban bicyclists do a lot of seemingly crazy and sometimes blatantly illegal things, but a lot of them do make them safer.
At least in the US, cops rarely bother policing bikers or bike-car interactions, so you're best off doing the safe thing even if it isn't strictly legal.

Sometimes rules for bikes are out of sync with reality, like requiring bikers to dismount at crossings. Sometimes traffic situations are unnecessarily dangerous due to poor planning. Best would be to fix this. Local bike groups are already telling politicians in most cities, but with only 1-2% of trips on bike and 99% by car in major Canadian cities it will take time.

 

[rhitee05]

Sorry to hear. Did anyone stop and check if you were ok? Or was it just "bicyclist laying beside the road. not my problem"?

Never saw so much as the tail lights of the idiot who buzzed me. A driver coming out the driveway did ask if I was okay, which I was if a little stunned. Fortunately also only a few hundred yards from work.

Being predictable always and assertive when necessary will help educate some motorists. But it is good to have an exit strategy when the car/truck behind comes within striking distance.

100% agreed. One of the benefits of not riding right on the edge of the road is you have a little more room for avoidance if necessary. If you're already on the edge, you don't have anywhere to go but off-road.

Sometimes rules for bikes are out of sync with reality, like requiring bikers to dismount at crossings. Sometimes traffic situations are unnecessarily dangerous due to poor planning. Best would be to fix this. Local bike groups are already telling politicians in most cities, but with only 1-2% of trips on bike and 99% by car in major Canadian cities it will take time.

Also agreed. Civic action is slow, but definitely worth pursuing. There was a large and active group of cyclists where I worked at this time, and they persistently lobbied the local government about the conditions on this road. They compiled information about how many cyclists actually used the road, number of incidents, etc and just didn't take no for an answer. Eventually, they got the city to commission a traffic study which resulted in the road being re-striped as a genuine two-lane road with bike lanes on each side. I expect this sort of thing will become easier as cities realize it's a cheap buy-in to the green movement.

 

[MattDog]

I'm now practicing riding where the cars aren't...the worst run-in I've had in the last 1K miles is a guy who pulled out and saw me at the last second...I yelled a few words and then he honked at me and gave actually had the nerve to give chase.

I rolled about 10 yards, stopped, and lifted the bike onto the sidewalk....waited for him to pass & then followed him up the street quietly.

He then continued to drive like a total jackass all the way up the street and around the corner.

There's an entitlement culture to cars and their drivers.