Darth Yoda
1 mW
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2013
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- 10
I thought people could share their say about these for us first-time builders. What the pros and cons with the different ones? Price, speed, acceleration, longitude, durability, bugs?
Considering GNG & Cyclone mid-kits, what are the consensus?
- Thread starter Darth Yoda
- Start date
Cyclone has a loud planetary geared reduction. It is a well-known and proven product, but the size of the motor limits the max power if you want to hot-rod the kit. The Kv is changed for each of the 24V/36V and 48V versions so that the reduction and the mechanical end of the drive is the same for all three versions. If you buy a Cyclone kit, at a minimum get the kit that has an external controller. The internal heat-protection circuit shuts down the power if the bike is under load on a long and steep uphill fairly rapidly if the controller and motor are both inside the same housing.
The GNG is just as noisy if you have a chain primary, but with a belt primary it is much quieter. The stock GNG belt is the power limit, so the chain primary can take more power. The only truly good part on the GNG kit is the motor. It can take 2,200W all day long @72V X 30A. The stock 22A controller, stock jackshaft, stock throttle are just adequate. The BB-crankset, 12T freewheel, and the mounting brackets are weak. The first post in the long GNG thread has links in it to find the "stock kit upgrades" thread.
With the GNG, you have the option of later buying upgraded parts from ES member LightningRods, if you want a powerful and quiet belted primary.
The GNG is just as noisy if you have a chain primary, but with a belt primary it is much quieter. The stock GNG belt is the power limit, so the chain primary can take more power. The only truly good part on the GNG kit is the motor. It can take 2,200W all day long @72V X 30A. The stock 22A controller, stock jackshaft, stock throttle are just adequate. The BB-crankset, 12T freewheel, and the mounting brackets are weak. The first post in the long GNG thread has links in it to find the "stock kit upgrades" thread.
With the GNG, you have the option of later buying upgraded parts from ES member LightningRods, if you want a powerful and quiet belted primary.
boostjuice
10 kW
spinningmagnets said:
My direct experience and observations of others findings indicates this is false. All are ~150Kv AFAIK.
Perhaps I have been misled, does the 48V kit run at a higher RPM? That would suggest that the planetary gears might be even louder on the 48V kit.
Thanks for posting first-hand information, which kits did you have?
Thanks for posting first-hand information, which kits did you have?
If you go with cyclone you definitely want the motor designed to use an external controller. Stay away from the ones with the internal controllers built inside the motor casing. I can't comment on their giant oversize motors that don't use the gear reduction head but for the motors with the gear reduction head (the traditional cyclone motor unit) pick your voltage and your mounting style and then go with the external controller motor head for that category. If you either want or need lower power (usually for legality reasons) then just go with the Kelly controller option instead of the stock Cyclone controller because it is programmable and you can turn it down to whatever you want or need, even all the way down to the Aussie 200-watt limit which I think is as low as it goes for legal restrictions.
boostjuice
10 kW
spinningmagnets said:
Well, it's apparent enough by the advertised power rating rising with system voltage. If Kv options existed to keep loaded RPM the same between 24V>48V, the power rating would be expected to be listed the same for the range of voltages. As it stands though, the power capability is simply afforded though spinning it faster with similar cap on current. The problem has always been that this added power is unusable in synergy with pedaling effort..... without involved modification.
Many have complained about the inadequate gearing reduction afforded by the standard kit (9.33:1 * 14T>44~48T). Realistic assistance cadence works well @24V, is uncomfortable @36V and impossible @48V. There is no way to cheaply/cleanly remedy the need for added gearing reduction, so Cyclone's advice is to simply not pedal in sync with 48V systems, rather see the pedals as a bail-out/legality measure only.
EGO kits (who utilise the same 'Headline electric' manufactured motor @48V) seem to blatantly ignore this assist cadence issue as well. An EGO kit owner has commented on this before.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=41547&hilit=EGO+cadence#p697639
Thanks!
I had to adjust the gearing slightly on my cyclone kit (24v) to get the "feel" I wanted for pedal assist by putting a slightly larger chain ring on my crank. Can't remember exactly what size would have to go out to the shop and check but it wasn't a big difference. But that is at the original stock 24v rating. Running it on hotter voltage, yah that would be a pedal start and then just run the motor only once you have accelerated up to speed. A lot of people do that deliberately though and just use the pedals to assist from a dead stop and use the motor for everything else. Not my cup of tea, I like to pedal almost the whole time adding my power to the motors power and have me gearing set-up for that.
Now for the GNG kits. The only one I have experience with is the older model of their belt drive reduction unit that I picked up the main unit via. private sale for cheap where the original owner had burned out several belts and broke the freewheeling crank that came with the unit and was in general not happy with it. So I got it for a good price minus the broken crank parts and without a belt. Got myself a new belt and I've already got plenty of freewheeling crank odds and ends around so got that rigged up. On 48v it ran a little too fast for my taste such that when I was pedaling full out cranked all the way up on my pedal cadence the motor was running in its peak power output point of its curve. A lot of people might like that gearing set-up but I personally prefer instead to gear the motor and the pedals together so that the motor is in its peak power point of its curve at lower pedal cadence of about 60-RPM or so in the "stand up and pump" range and that puts the motors peak or near peak efficiency at lower power output when I'm cranked up on my pedaling. This gives a much better feel for me so that when I "spool up" on my pedal cadence some of the load from the motor is transferred to me as the motors power output is reduced with increased motor RPMs which has the effect that with my pedal input I'm pushing the motor into its peak efficiency zone so I get considerable return on my investment when I'm pedaling strong and "spooled up" on my cadence and at the same time when I really need the power the most when I'm not pedaling as fast due to being tired out and/or I'm standing up on the pedals and pumping (which happens at lower cadence rate) I get maximum power out of the motor.
Anyway to get that kind of gearing set-up on the GNG kit I pulled the original controller and wired up a 36v controller I had lying around and hooked up a 36v pack and now it is just right like I like it and the lower power output seems to be making the belts last a lot longer (plus some tips on that from on this forum as well) and it also seems to be a little quieter.
Long story short, when it comes to getting a good match in gearing between cyclone or GNG with the cyclone which I'm running on the original 24v it was just a simple chain-wheel change and for the GNG I had to drop the voltage down from 48v to 36v because I couldn't get enough gear down by changing sprocket/chain-ring sizes.
Now for the GNG kits. The only one I have experience with is the older model of their belt drive reduction unit that I picked up the main unit via. private sale for cheap where the original owner had burned out several belts and broke the freewheeling crank that came with the unit and was in general not happy with it. So I got it for a good price minus the broken crank parts and without a belt. Got myself a new belt and I've already got plenty of freewheeling crank odds and ends around so got that rigged up. On 48v it ran a little too fast for my taste such that when I was pedaling full out cranked all the way up on my pedal cadence the motor was running in its peak power output point of its curve. A lot of people might like that gearing set-up but I personally prefer instead to gear the motor and the pedals together so that the motor is in its peak power point of its curve at lower pedal cadence of about 60-RPM or so in the "stand up and pump" range and that puts the motors peak or near peak efficiency at lower power output when I'm cranked up on my pedaling. This gives a much better feel for me so that when I "spool up" on my pedal cadence some of the load from the motor is transferred to me as the motors power output is reduced with increased motor RPMs which has the effect that with my pedal input I'm pushing the motor into its peak efficiency zone so I get considerable return on my investment when I'm pedaling strong and "spooled up" on my cadence and at the same time when I really need the power the most when I'm not pedaling as fast due to being tired out and/or I'm standing up on the pedals and pumping (which happens at lower cadence rate) I get maximum power out of the motor.
Anyway to get that kind of gearing set-up on the GNG kit I pulled the original controller and wired up a 36v controller I had lying around and hooked up a 36v pack and now it is just right like I like it and the lower power output seems to be making the belts last a lot longer (plus some tips on that from on this forum as well) and it also seems to be a little quieter.
Long story short, when it comes to getting a good match in gearing between cyclone or GNG with the cyclone which I'm running on the original 24v it was just a simple chain-wheel change and for the GNG I had to drop the voltage down from 48v to 36v because I couldn't get enough gear down by changing sprocket/chain-ring sizes.
Quite frankly I don't know why they don't sell a version of the GNG kit stock from their web site with a 36v controller. Seems they would want to offer as many options as possible to sell to as wide of a customer base as possible and they already stock a 36v brushless controller for one of their other kits so its one of those why not questions that make me scratch my head.
A lot of my ride buddies run low-wattage (internal controller) Cyclones on recumbent bikes & trikes.
However, they often find they're killing batteries because they run high currents when they throttle up a hill with the motor revving too slow (high amps @ low revs).
Many of them don't use Cycle Analysts (to limit current), where I do (to force myself to pedal).
So when I decided to fit a Cyclone on my Trisled trike with 20" wheels and a Rohloff, I bought the 480-720W (24V-36V) external controller motor.
Bought a Lyen 9-3077FET MkII controller with 3-speed switch, cruise control, custom connector to allow swapping from 24/36/48V if I wanted to. Not tried anything but 24V yet.
Front chain ring is 52t, motor freewheel/fixie sprockets are both 18t (custom FW adapter designed by me), to Rohloff IGH with 13t sprocket.
I used spreadsheet and Sheldon Brown's drive-train analyser (http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/ - plug in chain-ring size, and Cyclone sprocket size as "rear sprocket", and you can work out what RPM you get at the Cyclone for a given chain-ring at a given cadence. Match your personal "starting power" cadence with the RPM at the start of a Cyclone motor of a given winding/voltage (they differ, buy mine is 2450RPM@24V).
I ended up with 52t chainring, 18t Cyclone freewheel/fixie sprockets, 13t Rohloff sprocket, to match motor's power @24V with the way I pedal, on trike with 20" (406) wheels.
Spreadsheet I developed has almost every combination of chainring sizes, motor freewheel/fixie sprocket combinations, to work out what speed I'd get at cadence from 60 - 80RPM (my personal "power band").
Conclusion: Cyclones are ok, noisy, but if you get the gearing right, quite powerful and economical.
If you get the gearing wrong or run them bad (ie: no CA current limiting), they overheat, kill batteries, or spin too fast to pedal at the same time.
However, they often find they're killing batteries because they run high currents when they throttle up a hill with the motor revving too slow (high amps @ low revs).
Many of them don't use Cycle Analysts (to limit current), where I do (to force myself to pedal).
So when I decided to fit a Cyclone on my Trisled trike with 20" wheels and a Rohloff, I bought the 480-720W (24V-36V) external controller motor.
Bought a Lyen 9-3077FET MkII controller with 3-speed switch, cruise control, custom connector to allow swapping from 24/36/48V if I wanted to. Not tried anything but 24V yet.
Front chain ring is 52t, motor freewheel/fixie sprockets are both 18t (custom FW adapter designed by me), to Rohloff IGH with 13t sprocket.
I used spreadsheet and Sheldon Brown's drive-train analyser (http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/ - plug in chain-ring size, and Cyclone sprocket size as "rear sprocket", and you can work out what RPM you get at the Cyclone for a given chain-ring at a given cadence. Match your personal "starting power" cadence with the RPM at the start of a Cyclone motor of a given winding/voltage (they differ, buy mine is 2450RPM@24V).
I ended up with 52t chainring, 18t Cyclone freewheel/fixie sprockets, 13t Rohloff sprocket, to match motor's power @24V with the way I pedal, on trike with 20" (406) wheels.
Spreadsheet I developed has almost every combination of chainring sizes, motor freewheel/fixie sprocket combinations, to work out what speed I'd get at cadence from 60 - 80RPM (my personal "power band").
Conclusion: Cyclones are ok, noisy, but if you get the gearing right, quite powerful and economical.
If you get the gearing wrong or run them bad (ie: no CA current limiting), they overheat, kill batteries, or spin too fast to pedal at the same time.
Oh, forgot to mention, 'cos I run a Rohloff, all calculations are done for Rohloff in 11th gear (of 14).
This is the direct 1:1 gear, the most efficient.
So if you get your math right, you're pedalling @60-80RPM, with the motor on or available in it's powerband, with the Rohloff in 11th gear, doing about 27km/hour. Gear up to go faster, or down if you get a hill or headwind.
Batteries last and motor doesn't get hot.
Not ES-multi-kW-fast, but does what I want it to do.
This is the direct 1:1 gear, the most efficient.
So if you get your math right, you're pedalling @60-80RPM, with the motor on or available in it's powerband, with the Rohloff in 11th gear, doing about 27km/hour. Gear up to go faster, or down if you get a hill or headwind.
Batteries last and motor doesn't get hot.
Not ES-multi-kW-fast, but does what I want it to do.
solarg
Have you or any of your other recumbent cyclone rides done any of the AFT EMAX upgrades , ceramic bearings and grease to oil conversion, to quieten and increase the efficiency of the gearbox even further? i think they are also in melbourne somewhere, near you ?
here is the build thread i found it showing how efficient it is on a bike:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=48110
Have you or any of your other recumbent cyclone rides done any of the AFT EMAX upgrades , ceramic bearings and grease to oil conversion, to quieten and increase the efficiency of the gearbox even further? i think they are also in melbourne somewhere, near you ?
here is the build thread i found it showing how efficient it is on a bike:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=48110
Yes, one of our friends with 1200W/36V Cyclone/Kelly on Trisled trike has had AFT upgrade for oil-lubricated gearbox (with external oil reservoir). Didn't get ceramic bearing upgrade, though.
She does lots of km, often towing trailer.
I, and another in our group, have taken our gearboxes apart, polished both flat faces of each planetary gear (to remove burrs), and added custom slurry of Molly-disulphide grease mixed with Gear Oil.
This seems to make motor a bit quieter, and 'cos the slurry is a bit liquid, it "pours" - so it settles at bottom of gearbox when resting/idle. This helps keep gears lubricated.
Standard Cyclone gearbox grease is quite stiff/waxy, and the spinning of the gears flings it away from the teeth and you end up with not much lubricant on the gears, but all over the walls of the gearbox (useless).
My solution is a virtually free compromise, rather than taking the thing to AFT to have them charge me money for their oil-lubrication upgrade.
Also note, new Cyclones seem to be noisier than older ones. Yet to confirm whether that's because the older ones have "worn in" with thousands of km of use or due to changes (cheapening) in manufacturing process.
She does lots of km, often towing trailer.
I, and another in our group, have taken our gearboxes apart, polished both flat faces of each planetary gear (to remove burrs), and added custom slurry of Molly-disulphide grease mixed with Gear Oil.
This seems to make motor a bit quieter, and 'cos the slurry is a bit liquid, it "pours" - so it settles at bottom of gearbox when resting/idle. This helps keep gears lubricated.
Standard Cyclone gearbox grease is quite stiff/waxy, and the spinning of the gears flings it away from the teeth and you end up with not much lubricant on the gears, but all over the walls of the gearbox (useless).
My solution is a virtually free compromise, rather than taking the thing to AFT to have them charge me money for their oil-lubrication upgrade.
Also note, new Cyclones seem to be noisier than older ones. Yet to confirm whether that's because the older ones have "worn in" with thousands of km of use or due to changes (cheapening) in manufacturing process.
turbo1889, Rohloff is expensive because it's very well engineered.
They specify it can cope with tandem (ie: 2 people) installation, if geared properly (the manual goes into lots of detail on how to get it right and wrong).
I limit my current to 7A@24V in CA (170W), and due to limitations of CA's current-limiting algorithm can get peaks of current of nearly double my setting, ie: 13A (320W).
Note: these are battery/CA measured amps/watts, not motor-output values. Estimate motor-output is 50-70% of battery watts for this type of installation.
With me pedalling as well, I'm well within the capability of the Rohloff. Done >1000km so far, no problems.
Now, I could run 20A and pedal as well, but I don't need to for my use - I'm going for hours of relaxing pedal-assisted riding for pleasure, not commuting in stop-start peak-hour traffic.
So I don't need or want high power or high speed.
They specify it can cope with tandem (ie: 2 people) installation, if geared properly (the manual goes into lots of detail on how to get it right and wrong).
I limit my current to 7A@24V in CA (170W), and due to limitations of CA's current-limiting algorithm can get peaks of current of nearly double my setting, ie: 13A (320W).
Note: these are battery/CA measured amps/watts, not motor-output values. Estimate motor-output is 50-70% of battery watts for this type of installation.
With me pedalling as well, I'm well within the capability of the Rohloff. Done >1000km so far, no problems.
Now, I could run 20A and pedal as well, but I don't need to for my use - I'm going for hours of relaxing pedal-assisted riding for pleasure, not commuting in stop-start peak-hour traffic.
So I don't need or want high power or high speed.
boostjuice
10 kW
3rdElement (A high end German ebike company) spec several 1.2kw mid-drive models with Rohloff hubs...
http://www.3-element.com/en/bikes/overview/
http://www.3-element.com/en/bikes/overview/
Solarg
Ok that's good to know, that's no surprise that a brand new gearbox would be noisier until it beds in the gears. If you look on a car differential if you have ever changed gears on one, you will notice that they are initially noisy even though they are helical gears. And then after some time that the gears are run in and mated to each other and the noise goes down. Some places even go so far as to use lapping in paste to quickly wear in the gears, like you have done with the sand paper.
So in your experience with the oil its also makeing it quieter then grease, is matching what many others have said.
So i think for these 2 reasons above it could explain why some people say the cyclone gearboxes are noisy and others say they aren't ? Maybe they only heard a new NOT "RUN IN" gearbox ? Or possibly a very old one with the grease not lubricating well as its stuck mostly on the sides?
Ok that's good to know, that's no surprise that a brand new gearbox would be noisier until it beds in the gears. If you look on a car differential if you have ever changed gears on one, you will notice that they are initially noisy even though they are helical gears. And then after some time that the gears are run in and mated to each other and the noise goes down. Some places even go so far as to use lapping in paste to quickly wear in the gears, like you have done with the sand paper.
So in your experience with the oil its also makeing it quieter then grease, is matching what many others have said.
So i think for these 2 reasons above it could explain why some people say the cyclone gearboxes are noisy and others say they aren't ? Maybe they only heard a new NOT "RUN IN" gearbox ? Or possibly a very old one with the grease not lubricating well as its stuck mostly on the sides?
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