Controller recommendation

[Nojjan]

From what I understand from Justin's multi motor video it is best to use torque based motor controllers when setting up a multi-motor configuration. I am designing/constructing a delta trike with two hub motors one in each rear wheel and I am looking for advice on which controller to buy.

Design spec:
- delta trike
- two rear wheel hub motors (QS205 4kW V4)
- tot vehicle mass incl. driver, 300kg
- min 24S18P li-ion pack
- min 100kph nominal top speed
- est. motor effective power draw at 100 kph is 2 x 3.5kW
- est. req. cont. delivery per controller: 4.4kW
- lively acceleration would also be nice . . .
. . . so which torque based motor controller should I consider?

I apologize if similar topics have been covered before, I have searched but not found clear ones, thanks in advance // N

 

[ZeroEm]

Need two controllers, they don't need to be torque controlled. Speed is ok, just need to share the throttle. One big battery would work best or two if wanted. It's all about getting one throttle to drive two controllers. Does not need to be perfect, will not pull or push.

 

[A-DamW]

Find something in the VESC ecosystem, you can hook the controllers up over CANbus, traction control, single/dual throttle for breaking/regen/reverse, FOC, the list goes on and on.

PowerVelocity
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=99621
http://powervelocity.com/home/60-24f-nextgen-pv-controller.html

HESC/3shul
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=110371
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=115368&start=50#p1742331
https://3shulmotors.com/shop/

 

[Chalo]

Design spec:
- delta trike
[...]
- min 100kph nominal top speed

Is this going to be a low slung trike with the rider tucked down inside the wheelbase, or are you only looking for a quick way to grind flat spots on your helmet?

Either way, it seems like a bad to very-bad idea. Delta trikes want you to hurt, and the only way to curtail their ability to make you hurt is to keep speeds low. Their steering is highly sensitive to bumps and slopes, and centripetal forces from turning usually also cause unwanted steering inputs. Sooner or later, most delta trikes find a situation where they stoke a progressively tighter turn until they chuck you off and flip over.

 

[amberwolf]

This thread may be useful
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=93007

 

[Nojjan]

Design spec:
- delta trike
[...]
- min 100kph nominal top speed

Is this going to be a low slung trike with the rider tucked down inside the wheelbase, or are you only looking for a quick way to grind flat spots on your helmet?

Either way, it seems like a bad to very-bad idea. Delta trikes want you to hurt, and the only way to curtail their ability to make you hurt is to keep speeds low. Their steering is highly sensitive to bumps and slopes, and centripetal forces from turning usually also cause unwanted steering inputs. Sooner or later, most delta trikes find a situation where they stoke a progressively tighter turn until they chuck you off and flip over.

It is actually a tilting design (compare with GM LeanMachine but simplified). I have tested a single motor FWD version already and dynamics are really impressive but traction is limited therefore shift to rear wheel drive. Now I'm looking for sample suggestions on cost effective torque based motor controllers or dual-drive motor controller. Kelly had one a while back but it seems not available any more (and its a little bigger than I need). https://kellycontroller.com/shop/khs-d/ Suggestions of controllers are appreciated.

 

[Nojjan]

Find something in the VESC ecosystem, you can hook the controllers up over CANbus, traction control, single/dual throttle for breaking/regen/reverse, FOC, the list goes on and on.

PowerVelocity
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=99621
http://powervelocity.com/home/60-24f-nextgen-pv-controller.html

HESC/3shul
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=110371
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=115368&start=50#p1742331
https://3shulmotors.com/shop/

Thanks for the advice A-DamW, good info. I have been curious of the VESC system but the only "solid for sale" versions are limited to 100V max, i.e. 22S li-ion, like Trampa and Flipsky (I'm looking for 24S). The ones you link to may not be fully in production so I feel a little hesitant. I have tried to make contact with 3Shul but no response which is always worrying when needing to invest a (for me) significant sum.

Any more suggestions of high voltage VESC versions?

 

[amberwolf]

Do you mind building your own?

There are a few VESC-based projects, such as those by Mxlemming, that can be DIYd (in which case you can also fix it if necessary), here on the forum.

There is also the Lebowski brain, which can be used to drive many kinds of powerstages, including those from existing controllers by bypassing their own brain; there are a number of projects using this method (including one I haven't finished yet using Honda IMA inverter powerstages, which has already been tested by others which is why I used them).

 

[Nojjan]

From what I understand from Justin's multi motor video it is best to use torque based motor controllers when setting up a multi-motor configuration. I am designing/constructing a delta trike with two hub motors one in each rear wheel and I am looking for advice on which controller to buy.

Design spec:
- delta trike
- two rear wheel hub motors (QS205 4kW V4)
- tot vehicle mass incl. driver, 300kg
- min 24S li-ion pack
- min 100kph nominal top speed
- est. motors effective power draw at 100 kph is 2 x 3.5kW
- est. req. cont. delivery per controller: 4.4kW
- lively acceleration would also be nice . . .
. . . so which torque based motor controller should I consider?

I apologize if similar topics have been covered before, I also posted this in the wrong section first.
Thanks in advance // N

 

[Nojjan]

Need two controllers, they don't need to be torque controlled. Speed is ok, just need to share the throttle. One big battery would work best or two if wanted. It's all about getting one throttle to drive two controllers. Does not need to be perfect, will not pull or push.

Well, it will function but far from ideal and I would prefer a better distributed system. See video from Justin and maybe it will clear things up. Note two motors with different winding to trigger the single side partial load absorption outcome.

https://youtu.be/Ub4EP2_mAds?t=3953

 

[Nojjan]

Do you mind building your own?

There are a few VESC-based projects, such as those by Mxlemming, that can be DIYd (in which case you can also fix it if necessary), here on the forum.

There is also the Lebowski brain, which can be used to drive many kinds of powerstages, including those from existing controllers by bypassing their own brain; there are a number of projects using this method (including one I haven't finished yet using Honda IMA inverter powerstages, which has already been tested by others which is why I used them).

I wish I had the skills and time. My experience is found the field of vehicle dynamics and mechanical design. I am using the e-mobility field as a nice complement but I have to stick to what others contribute, i.e. I would prefer buying a system

 

[ZeroEm]

by Nojjan » Dec 27 2022 4:23am

ZeroEm wrote: ↑Dec 22 2022 12:07pm
Need two controllers, they don't need to be torque controlled. Speed is ok, just need to share the throttle. One big battery would work best or two if wanted. It's all about getting one throttle to drive two controllers. Does not need to be perfect, will not pull or push.

Well, it will function but far from ideal and I would prefer a better distributed system. See video from Justin and maybe it will clear things up. Note two motors with different winding to trigger the single side partial load absorption outcome.

Not getting what you are telling me that I don't understand. Could you be more clear!
a. Don't need two controllers?
b. Type of throttle control?
c. One battery?
d. Pulling and pushing?

How will it function far from ideal, could you explain?
Have watched Justin video's, must be something i'm not getting. Please explain!
Who said anything about different winding's. Could you point this out to me.

 

[Nojjan]

by Nojjan » Dec 27 2022 4:23am

ZeroEm wrote: ↑Dec 22 2022 12:07pm
Need two controllers, they don't need to be torque controlled. Speed is ok, just need to share the throttle. One big battery would work best or two if wanted. It's all about getting one throttle to drive two controllers. Does not need to be perfect, will not pull or push.

Well, it will function but far from ideal and I would prefer a better distributed system. See video from Justin and maybe it will clear things up. Note two motors with different winding to trigger the single side partial load absorption outcome.

Not getting what you are telling me that I don't understand. Could you be more clear!
a. Don't need two controllers?
b. Type of throttle control?
c. One battery?
d. Pulling and pushing?

How will it function far from ideal, could you explain?
Have watched Justin video's, must be something i'm not getting. Please explain!
Who said anything about different winding's. Could you point this out to me.

Please, I did not intend to offend, poor choice of words on my behalf, I apologize. I'm not sure I am qualified to explain what Justin says but I'll give it a try. As I understand the video, no two machines are exactly the same (in theory it is possible create such a pair but not in reality) so as to force a realistic scenario he chooses two clearly different motors for case A and B but still adds them together as if they were on the same vehicle. When in voltage/rpm mode one of the motors will absorb all the load (even some extra drag from the other motor). This will be the case until that motor is at full load then the second kicks in. If one drives with full throttle all the time then this does not matter because both motors will then give all they can but my application does not allow that, I need to be able to go partial load/throttle. It is also likely that the main load carrying side will be the same every time and it will not only function less efficient as shown in the video, but will in the long run be over-utilized.

 

[ZeroEm]

Don't worry, i'm not offended. Have watched Justin's video and we are understanding it differently. Don't know any ebike controllers that run dual motors. amberwolf has the best take on it. He runs dual motors.