Cost Comparison: Electric Bike Kit Build vs Turnkey EBikes

Ok Great! 10T it is. I ran some simulations at ebikes.ca and it looks like I will be able to climb a 20% grade only if I upgrade to a 30A controller. Its only 16 bucks more so it makes sense. For the simulations I used Clyte HS3540, but not sure of how similar this is to the MAC 10T
 
I upgraded to 9 FET / 30A controller.
All I can say is, it climbs like a goat.
6 FET controller would probably be ok really, but for a couple extra bucks... why not?

Paul at EM3ev was extremely helpful. If you have any questions re config, I'd suggest just asking him.
I had a few questions, and I feel that he steered me straight.

Build it before it gets dark! Or if you can't, build it this winter and look forward to first days of Spring.
 
Would I be able to use 3 Turnigy 5000mAh 4S batteries in series?

HobbyKing has a good deal on them and I have used them before in a RC Quadcopter with good results.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__15521__Turnigy_5000mAh_4S1P_14_8v_20C_hardcase_pack.html

Which charger would work best for this setup? Do I need a BMS, and if so can you recommend one?

Thanks
 

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Nothing wrong with your bike. Just hang the batteries over the top tube (see my avatar). I've got 10ah of 88.8v there. And it handles just about as good as when I had the same batteries in the triangle of another bike. If I were you, I'd get this kit and save some money. I've got over 10,000 miles on mine now which is the same motor.
http://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/26-Inch-Rear-PRO-901-Conversion-Kit.html
Battery wise, I us nothing but rc lipo from HK. I just didn't like lifepo4 when I researched it 3 years ago. And I haven't changed my mind. The newer NMC suff is still too weak for me too. Besides, it's easy to mount lipo anywhere you want. I've got 6 bricks on each side of the top tube sitting in a homemade U shaped winged mount made from an old aluminum sign. Easy on, easy off.
Those are the batteries I use. Hard to beat the cost, and you don't have to worry about C rates with lipo. It packs a punch. Using 4s packs does present a charging problem, but easy enough to get around if you make adapter cables to turn the 3 4s balance plugs into 2 6s plugs. That's what I did. Then you can use a 12s charger to charge the whole pack at once easily. This is the charger I'd buy today.
http://www.hobbypartz.com/75p-1220-charger.html?gclid=CNa3z9_N57ICFayPPAod10MAPw
 
You can use that bike. But it will handle like dogshit when actually loaded up with 50 pounds of groceries. The cheap bike frames get soft as noodles when you really load them up.

But I'd rather ride that bike than any of those pre built bikes you showed earlier. To really pack freight, a longtail cargo bike is the thing you need. You might find yourself building one out of scrap bikes someday.

Here's my grocery getter, more money in the saddle bags than the bike itself. Tires and tubes cost twice what the whole bike cost. It's stiff and sturdy, made from cheap but strong steel bike frames. At least a thou in battery and motor, likely more like $1500 including the cycleanalyst.Bouncing Betty 5-2013.jpg

I agree, if you go with the RC batteries, build something that will carry the batteries up front. Here is a pic of one of my past bikes, built strictly for dirt riding. I never pedaled on it, so the awkward boxes did not matter. You can carry 44v 10 ah up front easy and still have knee clearance to pedal. This box carried twice that much, and though I could pedal, it was awkward. You can carry some battery in a front bag or box on the handlebars as well.2812 9c dirtbike, w 40 amp 72v controller..JPG

This is the only rack you want for this bike. The axiom brand pannier rack, in the seatpost version. It is very strong. But to really handle 50 pounds, it needs bracing back to the frame. Otherwise, you just snap your seatpost. I've bent and broken several. This is what the brace looks like, just something metal attached to the frame, at the bottom of the seatpost. Drilling the frame for the bolt will be fine. Often the bolt goes through the seatpost too.
Axxiom pannier rack and supports.jpg
 
On to the motor, nothing whatsoever wrong with your choice of the 10t mac. The 12t will be very slow, but would be best for a bike intended solely for the trails near Banff. Those trails could melt any hubmotor btw. Try to find grades under 15%. Banff is serious shit. But there must be some nice trails you can still ride without melting motors.

But no problems for the 10t or the slower version dd motors for that town ride. You'll find 50 pounds of groceries only happens when all you buy is beer. Most of the time you will carry more like 20 pounds I bet.
 
Wes - your build is great, both economical and cool design. I would love a hi-res pic if you have one.

Dogman - thanks for the pics, I am looking for an older steel frame bike for my build. Steel ftw on price, strength and durability. I tend to drink lots of beverages - of the milk, juice and iced tea variety - so the liquid weight really adds up quick.

I am looking at connecting 4 Turnigy 5000mAh 4S in series for my bike build. Will this setup be able to handle the 59.2V? The controller is only rated for 52V so I think an upgrade will be needed - unless I use 3 in series at 44.4V.

I could also use 2 in series @ 28.8V for my Currie Izip and ditch the SLA's I have. Do I need a BMS for this? Are there any cheaper charging solutions Wes?

Also used this very simple online circuit simulator during my Electrical Eng studies, thought you might enjoy/find useful
http://phet.colorado.edu/en/simulation/circuit-construction-kit-ac
 
Most 36/48V controllers are limited by 63V caps. I wouldn't try 16s on them. But 72V controllers can handle 100V can be had for under $50 If you really want more speed.
I've never used a bms, just a balance charger to charge. I do have one of these to monitor voltage. And I've set the controller LVC to shut it down when battery gets to 10% soc.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterproof-Digital-Voltmeter-DC-15V-To-120V-Red-Led-Voltage-Digital-Panel-Meter-/170846310527
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Ok, EM3ev offers a 36V-75V controller upgrade, so I will go with that one. Then I will be able to use 5 of the Turnigy 5000mAh 4S packs for a total of 20S or 74V total. My only thing left to do is figure out a convenient charging method. I don't want to have to monitor the batteries while charging - I will put them in a fireproof bag and leave them charge overnight. I want to wire it so that it is one simple connect the 20S battery pack to the charger. Any advice on how to accomplish this?
 

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5000 mAh battery will only give you about 10 miles of range taking it easy on a flat route. Might want to consider paralleling for 10,000 mAh. Another thought, if you are using mainly for hauling groceries and don't want to build an ugly box over the frame, consider getting a BOB trailer and towing the battery in that. You could then add a much bigger 20Ah battery, have extra room in the trailer for groceries, keep the panniers open for additional groceries, and, lastly, be able to disconnect the trailer and just ride it like a regular bike since the geared motor you are choosing can freewheel and is relatively lightweight.

PS: I assume you are aware of the fire hazards and extra charging precautions required for LiPo batteries. If you want simple plug and play and up to 40 miles range, I'd suggest a 48v 20Ah Ping battery or something along that line.
 
Yes, fireproof battery case.
It looks like Wes has 6 packs in series (24S @ 88.8V) and he has his range listed at about 20 miles. So with a 20S setup I think I could pull off more than 15 miles. The charger Wes recommended is great, but a bit pricey. Would 5 of these work? http://www.ebay.ca/itm/DC16-8V-1A-Charger-4S-14-8V-LiIon-LiPo-Battery-Pack-US1-/220715406640?pt=Battery_Chargers&hash=item3363a9d530

I would connect the 5 chargers to a powerbar and assemble the 5 connections into a D-Sub DB-25 connectors for quick connection
 
bowriver said:
Ok, EM3ev offers a 36V-75V controller upgrade, so I will go with that one. Then I will be able to use 5 of the Turnigy 5000mAh 4S packs for a total of 20S or 74V total. My only thing left to do is figure out a convenient charging method. I don't want to have to monitor the batteries while charging - I will put them in a fireproof bag and leave them charge overnight. I want to wire it so that it is one simple connect the 20S battery pack to the charger. Any advice on how to accomplish this?
I went to 24s for a reason. I could make adapter balance cables to turn 3 4s plugs into 2 6s plugs, then split the pack in the middle and charge the whole pack as a12s pack. Going to 20 you could do the same thing if you used 5s packs, but you can't do it using 4s packs as there's no way to break the pack into 2 10s packs. You could wire in a bms, but that presents other problems. If you want 20s, use 4 5s packs. There's so many options you just have to pick one and go with it.
 
bowriver said:
Yes, fireproof battery case.
It looks like Wes has 6 packs in series (24S @ 88.8V) and he has his range listed at about 20 miles. So with a 20S setup I think I could pull off more than 15 miles. The charger Wes recommended is great, but a bit pricey. Would 5 of these work? http://www.ebay.ca/itm/DC16-8V-1A-Charger-4S-14-8V-LiIon-LiPo-Battery-Pack-US1-/220715406640?pt=Battery_Chargers&hash=item3363a9d530

I would connect the 5 chargers to a powerbar and assemble the 5 connections into a D-Sub DB-25 connectors for quick connection


He has six in series on each side for 12 total. They are paralleled for 10Ah capacity. Correct me if I am wrong, Wes?

Lipo charging ==> Fireproof battery case, off the bike, outdoors, preferably in an underground bunker (if indoors, never leave unattended, not even for a second).

Why would you need 5 chargers? That's a lot to futz around with...

LifePO4 with BMS charging ==> leave on bike in your garage, turn on charger, plug in a single plug, go to bed, wake up to charged and balanced pack.

For the setup you are describing, you don't really need unbridled power, so why would you want to hassle with LiPo?
 
Ok that makes sense. So I think the easier way is to go for 6 4S packs; and split the connections as you have done. Jim mentioned using a series/parallel combination circuit; at 24S this would make 44.4V @ 10Ah versus series circuit at 88.8V @ 5Ah. What is the difference in power, speed and range? What is better?
 
Thanks Jim, you have a good point. I could buy a 48V 10Ah LiFePO4 pack with charger and BMS for about $300.00 shipped. The Lipo route will ring in around $250 with a high end charger. So for only $50 bucks more I have LiFePO4 peace of mind for safety and alot less 'futzing' around.
 
88.8 volts will get your top speed up in the 60 to 70 kph range with awe-inspiring accelleration. That is crazy fast to be going on a bike frame, but lot's of folks here like to do it. Of course you don't have to use all that power if you don't want to. Range decreases significantly with speed, so there is that to consider. You do need to give extra attention to torque arms and making sure your frame and suspension system are up to the task.

44.4 v will get your top speed in the 35 to 45 kph range, which is respectable for a grocery getter. You should have no problem to get 35+ km of range. You also don't need to worry about top of the line suspension components, so overall cheaper to build.
 
bowriver said:
Thanks Jim, you have a good point. I could buy a 48V 10Ah LiFePO4 pack with charger and BMS for about $300.00 shipped. The Lipo route will ring in around $250 with a high end charger. So for only $50 bucks more I have LiFePO4 peace of mind for safety and alot less 'futzing' around.

Dont forget you also have to buy a power supply to power your lipo charger. Or did you consider that in the cost?

If you go with only a 10Ah Ping style pack, I would not get bigger than a 25-amp controller. But that should still get you a top speed of 40 kph or more. There are calculators on the ebikes.ca website that will give you an idea of top speed for different motor-controller-voltage combinations.

A 15 Ah pack would let you get away with the 30 amp controller and give a bit more range.
 
Can anyone comment on this BikeBerry kit? http://www.bikeberry.com/brushless-electric-bicycle-motor-48v-1000w-rear-wheel-6-gear-hub.html

It looks like the same yescomusa kit that Wes has. Total cost is $380 Shipped from USA. I am deciding between the Bikeberry and the EM3ev Mac 10t kit which rings in at $453.00 shipped from China. The Bikeberry kit is $70.00 less and faster shipping- I called them and they could not give me the amperage of the controller. The Mac kit has higher quality components, but slow expensive shipping and when I tried to contact them by email I have had no response for 2 days. Can anyone weigh in on this? Thanks
 
bowriver said:
I called them and they could not give me the amperage of the controller... Can anyone weigh in on this? Thanks

Yes. They can't give you the amperage of the controller because they don't have a clue.

You kind of do get what you pay for. There are a couple of very reputable vendors who will give you the straight scoop. They may take a day or two to respond, but they are solid. Two that come to mind are EM3ev.com, and bikes.ca. I have gear from both. In each case, they cost a couple bucks more. In each case, it was worth it.

I'm always looking for a bargain, but after 60 years I'm starting to understand that... low price usually isn't a bargain.

Buy from one of the vendors who know their stuff and have good rep. Costs a couple bucks more, but man is it worth it.
 
bowriver said:
Can anyone comment on this BikeBerry kit? http://www.bikeberry.com/brushless-electric-bicycle-motor-48v-1000w-rear-wheel-6-gear-hub.html

It looks like the same yescomusa kit that Wes has. Total cost is $380 Shipped from USA. I am deciding between the Bikeberry and the EM3ev Mac 10t kit which rings in at $453.00 shipped from China. The Bikeberry kit is $70.00 less and faster shipping- I called them and they could not give me the amperage of the controller. The Mac kit has higher quality components, but slow expensive shipping and when I tried to contact them by email I have had no response for 2 days. Can anyone weigh in on this? Thanks
Yep, it's the same kit as I bought from yescomusa. It's a 30A 15fet controller with 63V caps. The shipped price is $100 more than the yescomusa price, but yescomusa only ships to the US. Here's some info on the kits.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49638
 
Thanks Wes, I read the yescomusa forum and it looks like there is good value in the kit. There are 2 things that are swaying my decision; no half twist throttle, and it seems I would have to spread my dropout as the yescom kit does not fit a 135mm dropout.
 
Throttle is easy enough to replace. You can fit it in 135mm or a lot less, but you'd have to cut the left spacer down a few mm. Otherwise, you will need to either spread the dropouts or change to a smaller freewheel. This may be a problem you run into with other kits too but I don't know.
 
That kit will get a lot hotter climbing really steep hills loaded down with cargo. It's a moderately fast winding. But it will do ok on hills up to 10%,or shorter hills.

It'll melt down trying to ride a trail in Banff.

Decide what's important to you. Fast and fun, or slower and able to climb longer steeper hills.

Price the dd kit from em3ev. It may be cheap enough, and it's a better kit.
 
Without actually comparing the 2 kits I wouldn't rush to judgement. I know I've got over 10,000 miles on my yescomusa 48V 1000W motor using a 72V controller and up to 100.8V and it's still going strong pushing my 270 lbs. The em3ev kit is only a 500W rated motor, and just recently read here where someone burned on up. I'd take any comparison with a grain of salt unless the person actually had both. The em3ev kit may have better spokes, and connection may be easier, but saying a 500W rated motor is better than a 1000W rated motor needs to be proven. And I think that's going to be hard to do.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55168
 
Just trying to say, you want to climb the steep hills, you want the slow wind. That recent thread of the burned motor was using a 2807 wind, and something weird happened there anyway. I've roasted motors a lot more than that one did with no stoppage. Your motor has an even faster wind, and would need 3000w to not perform sluggish on hills. If the cheap kit is identical, it's far from ideal for a hilly place. Perfect for Texas though.

I'm recommending the 2809 motor. And running it on about 1500-2000w.

FWIW, I'm quite sure the cheap kit will handle 99% of the hills he has in town. And I'm equally sure the trails in Banff would melt nearly any dd motor setup, in 26" wheel. Similar riding has melted the slow motors I have. 20% grades are rough on 26" wheel hubbies.

He's not going to haul cargo, and ride trails real well on the same bike. He'll go melt some motors and learn the limits like I did.

Really Wes, stop trying to be an expert on mountain riding. What he really needs is a good non hub setup where he lives. But the really good ones are freaking pricy. So I keep recommending the compromise that works for me, a slow dd motor.

If the yes kits and others that are similar came in slower windings, I'd recommend them to the guys with lots of hills to climb, and no money. I do recommend the yes kits for those who's needs match that winding. Its perfect for those with a long flat ride where 30 mph is the goal. But come climb a real mountain side by side with me, and I'll be the one with a cooler motor at the top.
 
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