Cyclone 1000W 48V setup on a 20" Dahon Mariner

I look forward to some eagle-tree data and some video
I really want to hear what it sounds like under load and see the current spikes

Can you "bang" the gears yet?

After you make the runs will you post up the raw datalog files?
can you set up the sample rate to the max so we can find the current spikes?

I dont remember how fast it will go but I want to compare the current spikes with a setup like this to a hub motor.

I was never able to datalog my X5 setup since that Eagle tree only goes up to what, 70V?
I have already blown up 2 Watts up's by spacing out. I try to be careful with my eagle tree u

-methods
 
I've also blown lots of WattsUp units, and went through several ET units. They did a special one for me that is good to about 80V, but I still couldn't use it with a 24s/72V a123-based setup because fresh off the charger the pack is at about 88V. Anyway, it should work fine for this setup. The fastest storage rate is about 10 Hz, and it does seem to catch the big peaks.

As I said in your other thread, my intent is to first do some instrumented tests with the current setup, then put the 36T chainring back on in place of the 24T "granny" gear and try it again. If I can, I'll mount my video camera and try to overlay the ET realtime data ontop of the video, like I've done before.

Anyway, after these tests, the Cyclone setup comes out and will be replaced by the Astroflight 3210/eDrive assembly. :)

(Miles/ypedal/Fechter: Can one of you please move this thread into the Non-Hub section?)

-- Gary
 
You are an inspiration Gary!

I would be proud to be riding any of your work.
 
So I back calculated your gear ratios to come up with the motor RPM.

At
18mph
24mph
32mph

I calculate ~ 2845RPM at the motor.

Will I be safe if I use that RPM to now calculate out my own gear ratios using 24" tires and different gear sets?
(i.e. is that a reasonable peak RPM shifting speed?)

You said at one point that the bike will reach near 40mph which by my calculations would be ~3565 RPM
That is quite a bit higher than the RPM used for the other shift points.
Did you change out the gears between these two data points?

For my calculations i used the

Motor 6 to crank 44
Crank 24 to hub 23
Nexus 0.75, 1.0, 1.33
Tire 20"

Also, I noticed that your motor is all black like the 36V version.


24V/36V
650w.jpg


Garry motor:
eMariner-19.jpg

48V
1000w.jpg



-methods
 
Lol.....
Here are my hypothetical speeds with a 24" tire running the motor at 2845 RPM

31.14920128
35.59908717
41.53226837
47.46544957
55.37635783
62.29840256
71.19817435
83.06453674
90.61585826

that would be using the 6 tooth on the motor, 44 tooth on the crank, 36 tooth on the crank back to an 11-32 9 speed cluster

If I swap out the the same 24 tooth that you used in the front I get a more reasonable:

20.76613419
23.73272478
27.68817891
31.64363304
36.91757188
41.53226837
47.46544957
55.37635783
60.41057218

Which I can totally believe :wink:
Knock it by 20% and I will see a top speed of 48mph with reasonable but not amazing torque since my similar gearing in first is with a 24" tire instead of a 20"

If this is the case then sign me up because this is only using 1/2 the pack that my 5305 was (12S vs 24S)


Thanks for doing the research for me Garry :idea:

-methods


EDIT: I just found a 22 tooth chainring in my box

19.035623
21.75499772
25.38083067
29.00666362
33.84110756
38.07124601
43.50999544
50.76166134
55.37635783
 
You are pretty close. I've actually calibrated my spreadsheet for this setup. At 50V, the rpm is 2975, which translates to 18.85 mph in 1st, 25.82 mph in 2nd and 35.11 mph in 3rd. I haven't got the bike up to the max speed, as anything over 30 gets a bit hairy on a 20" folder, but the 1st two numbers are pretty close. If you use this with a 12s LiPo setup, the speeds will be a bit less, but only 1-2mph. Also, the ratios for the Nexus 3 are slightly different: 0.73:1, 1:1 and 1.36:1.

As I've said in one of the other threads, if I was to do this again, I would have left the original 36t drive chainring alone, and started with that. With the current setup, 1st gear is almost unusable. Most of the time, I just start in 2nd and then quickly shift to 3rd. The only time I've needed to use 1st was starting from a dead stop at the bottom of a steep hill.

One other change I think is really needed is to switch to a smaller pitch motor-to-crank chain. the 6t motor pinion is way too small. The chain has a hard time getting around such a small sprocket, and because of this, it makes an ungodly racket.

-- Gary
 
That is good to know.
I will be running a 24" rear wheel so I wont have quite the torque that you do.
I will try it stock per your suggestion.

So your 3 speed Nexus is the coaster brake right?
How do you feel about that?
Does it work out?

If I go with a Nexus I will be forced to use a coaster brake for the rear and that just makes my teeth hurt.

I have a different plan:

I am going to try a 9 speed cluster
I will trim the chain so that it is "tight" on the highest gear (since the front will be fixed at 36)
I am going to run a couple of those downhill mountain bike rubber wheel gadgets to keep the chain under control
I have a trigger shifter for banging through the gears.

We will see if I eat chain :roll:

So is that the 36V motor or the 48V motor?

-Patrick

Edit: I agree about the 6 tooth. Perhaps I will swap out the large gear for a 52 or more from a road bike so I can add a tooth or two

EDIT2: Oh, you are talking about using a non-standard chain. . . Something finer. That is a good idea :idea:
 
IMO- Gary's hub hasn't busted in part because it's a 3spd. Having 3 speeds means each set of gears can actaully be pretty large and strong. Getting a bunch of gears in there means each gear gets a lot smaller and more wimpy.

Sounds like the 3spd with coaster brake would be a hot ticket. Answers a lot of problems in a very simple and elegant solution. I will set my own bike up with one when I'm ready to change my setup around.
 
Turns out that they actually make a Nexus 3 with a disk option.

All of these hubs also take a disk. (but there are more...)

Shimano Nexus INTER-3________________186% gear range, first is useless, so its a 2 speed
Shimano ALFINE______________________Not suitable (cost)
Sturmey Archer 8 Speed XRK8___________305% gear range and $150, most say unreliable
Rohloff Speedhub_____________________Not suitable (extreme gear range of 526%)
SRAM i-MOTION 9_____________________Not suitable (cost)
SRAM i-Motion 3______________________186%, $130, found this late in the game

So the only real problem with the Nexus 3 is the overall gear ratio of only 186%.
Many complain that 1st gear is useless
There is talk that the newer disk version of the Nexus 3 has a different gear range.
I am investigating that but I dont think it has hit the states yet.

I am just starting to research the Strumey Archer 8 speed XRK8
Cost about the same as the Nexus 3 speed w/disk but has a much larger gear range.
Question is will it hold up. I have read more negative reviews of this hub than any other.

I am finding that many hubs have a disk option but they are not widely available / known
Many are in Europe but not here.

-methods
 
Patrick, mine is definitely a 48V model. The controller has a 55A limit so with a 16s a123 pack I get 2650W peaks.

Frankly, I'm not sure whether or not my Nexus 3-speed hub has the coaster brake option, or not. I didn't use it if it does have that feature. My 20" Mariner has regular V-brakes.

Eventually, I will find out if the Nexus-8 will handle the power, because my wife's Townie has one on it and I plan to eventually do a 3210/eDrive setup for this bike.

One thing is for sure, you won't need more than 2-3 gears with any motor setup, unless maybe you are trying to use TRex or foamy motor to drive the bike. :D Most any motor setup has an order of magnitude wider power/torque range than your legs. You only need lots of gears if you plan on pedaling a lot. Under motor power, however, you will be banging though gears so fast, I'm not sure even a good index system will be able to keep up. That's one big advantage of the multi-speed hubs, you can jump from 1st to 5th with no problem. You can even do that while stopped. With a derailleur-based system, you can only shift while the bike is moving. I can't tell you how many times I've had to do panic stops when some A-hole cuts me off, making a turn in front of me. With the hub, no problem, just shift down to whatever I need. You, however, will be trying to start out in 9th gear. :)

If it were me, I'd go with the Afine and the disk brake option. This would give you better gearing options. The 8-speed hubs have a much higher reduction for 1st gear (0.527 vs. 0.73...), and a greater "overdive" ratio for the highest gear. This will let you keep the pedal drive ratios pretty much the same, whlle still giving you enough reduction for the motor.

As for the braking issue, you need most of the stopping power in the front wheel, so a good disk setup there is going to do the brunt of the work anyway. you might be fine for a drum brake in the rear. BTW, I don't think it is a coaster brake, in the sense that you back pedal to engage the brake. I think it has a cable with a normal brake lever. I might be thinking of the Nexus 8, I don't know.

Finally, the Cyclone crankset doesn't have a standard mounting pattern for the chainrings. Each are basically custom cut solid steel disks with a whole in the middle of the 44T sprocket that they install a frewheel into. The 36T bolts to the 44T using 5 bolts and a bunch of washers, but the BCD is not any normal/standard size. I took the 24T "granny gear" and drilled 5 new holes. Anyway, changing out the 44T would be too hard, I think.

-- Gary
 
That is some good info.
I definitely agree that we wont need more than 2 gears.
I would argue though that those two gears should have a far distance between them to have a wide operating range.
Hence your suggestion of the Alfine. . .

If we stuck with the 6:44, 36:23, then ran the Alfine on a 24" wheel we come up with this speed range:

23
28
32
37
43
53
61
70

The Afine with the trigger shifter may just be the ticket. . . Though an expensive one.

Garry, will you please buy all of them, try them out vigorously in a 72 hour ebike marathon and let me know which was best :mrgreen:

-methods
 
1st gear doesn't have to be useless on the 3spd. You set it up to have as much or as little torque as you require. For off road technical stuff, I find myself all the time in 1st gear just to give me a fine precision to creep with that is un-lugable. This is on a 212lbs dirtbike with 73bhp. 2nd and 3rd gear have the power to blow the tire traction or launch into a wheelie at any instant, yet I'm still rolling in first for the improved control the very short gear provides. You might find that true for technical off road stuff with your electric bike too, though I don't know for sure. On the street I normally just start in 2nd with that bike, and I'm sure you could start in 2nd just fine on the street for your bike too. But when you need that creeping up the side of a cliff on a twist mountain road control, having the granny first will be nice.
 
agreed, dont forget you'll want that granny gear if your electrics crap out too.


D
 
liveforphysics said:
1st gear doesn't have to be useless on the 3spd. You set it up to have as much or as little torque as you require. For off road technical stuff, I find myself all the time in 1st gear just to give me a fine precision to creep with that is un-lugable. This is on a 212lbs dirtbike with 73bhp. 2nd and 3rd gear have the power to blow the tire traction or launch into a wheelie at any instant, yet I'm still rolling in first for the improved control the very short gear provides. You might find that true for technical off road stuff with your electric bike too, though I don't know for sure. On the street I normally just start in 2nd with that bike, and I'm sure you could start in 2nd just fine on the street for your bike too. But when you need that creeping up the side of a cliff on a twist mountain road control, having the granny first will be nice.
Click to expand...

Not having a clutch changes things a bit.. but as long as the motor is not bogged down to a stall extreemely low gears on electric are not as essential as gas imo..
 
If you have big fat tires on that 24" rim, the diameter might be closer to 25", so the numbers go up slightly: 24, 29, 34, 39, 45, 56, 64 and 73. I'm also not sure about using an index-type shifter. It is likely you will start in like 3rd and then want to go to 6 or 7th most of the time. With the normal twist shifter, this is easy to do quickly.

Even with the Cyclone stock setup, your regular pedal gearing is going to change, in the "granny" gear direction. With my wife's Townie the front chainring has 40t and there is 20t cog on the hub. What we are talking about here is a 36t/23t combo. If the 40t/20t set were used the speed range would go up to 31 mph in first, and 94 mph in 8th. That's not enough reduction in first for the sort of "blistering" acceleration I know he's looking for off the line. :roll: :mrgreen: I think with the 36t/23t combo, you will be pretty happy, and that is with a 55A controller limit. Yours might be higher, I don't know. They rated mine as 1000W but it peaks out at 2-1/2 times that. Yours is rated for 1500W, so who knows. Actually, what I think is they just now have two different current limits for the same basic controller. If you look at the specs, there's one part where it looks like there are three current limits listed, 29A, 59A and 75A. I'm thinking the 1000W model now has a 29A limit and the 1500W model has a 59A limit. For the 3000W model, I think they are using the Kelly controller, which can easily handle 75A. Anyway, if you need more low-end "grunt", you can change the 36T to a 28T and match the 1st gear top speed I have now. The numbers would be 18.6, 22.7, 26.4, 30.0, 35.3, 43.1, 54.0, 64.5 mph. Doing this, however, will make all the gears below the top 2-3 pretty useless for pedaling. We're talkin' great-great-great-granny gears. :mrgreen:

In looking at the Schulmpf (?) two-speed front crank system the other day, they talked about an accessory that would allow the use of MTB chainrings in place of the cogs that normally come on these hubs, the largest of which is 23t, I think. Basically, this adapter had the same 3-spline cutouts the cogs have, so it fits on the same way and is held with the same split ring, but it had a set of 104mm BCD holes. What I'd love to see is some sort of adapter that could let you attach two cogs, one "normal" small one that is driven by the crankset/pedals, and then this same sort of standard BCD adapter that could be used with standard chainrings. That way, you could drive the rear hub directly and get pretty much whatever ratio you needed, and leave the pedal ratios alone. You'd still need a freewheel in the crank, but you might be able to get away with one of the cheap ones, as you aren't driving power through it anymore. I'll have to think more on this. :)

-- Gary
 
Hi,

IMO- Gary's hub hasn't busted in part because it's a 3spd. Having 3 speeds means each set of gears can actaully be pretty large and strong. Getting a bunch of gears in there means each gear gets a lot smaller and more wimpy.
Click to expand...

Gary knows someone who builds bikes with Eteks. He said absolutely no problems with 3 speed Nexus and 7 speed Nexus Hubs. He thinks 8 Speed Nexus Hubs would be Ok too. Two caveats:
1. He uses V-belts which provide some slippage.
2. Chopper style bikes which are probably not as susceptible to breakage as Urban Assault/Dirt Bikes. There is a gearbox document that states only the Rohloff is strong enough for dirt bikes.

All of these hubs also take a disk. (but there are more...)

Shimano Nexus INTER-3________________186% gear range, first is useless, so its a 2 speed
Shimano ALFINE______________________Not suitable (cost)
Sturmey Archer 8 Speed XRK8___________305% gear range and $150, most say unreliable
Rohloff Speedhub_____________________Not suitable (extreme gear range of 526%)
Click to expand...

The Rohloff (expensive) and Nuvinci (heavy) are the strongest. A wide range is useful if you want pedal assist at all speeds.

FYI Nuvinci has announced a kit that will provide:
1. Automatic shifting with customized shift maps.
2. Shifting under power.

Should the name of this thread be changed to "Patrick's proposed Cyclone Build Thread" :)
 
MitchJi said:
Should the name of this thread be changed to "Patrick's proposed Cyclone Build Thread" :)
Click to expand...

Not until after Garry gets done testing all the hubs for me :wink:

I will go start a thread somewhere else titled "Patrick's burning issues"

-methods
 
methods said:
Not until after Garry gets done testing all the hubs for me :wink:

I will go start a thread somewhere else titled "Patrick's burning issues"

-methods
Click to expand...

A good course of antibiotics should help clear that up... :mrgreen:


BTW, Patrrick, there's only one "r" in my name. :wink:
 
doh!

Thanks Garry! :mrgreen:
 
GGoodrum said:
The controller can defintely handle up to 60V, at least. My 16s6p a123 pack is about 59V, right off the charger, and it quickly settles in at around 54-55V.

I ordered mine directly from Cyclone. Shipping is a bitch, but it is very fast. I got mine in three days.
Click to expand...

I hope its the same way [strike]9[/strike] [strike]years[/strike] 8 years later!
 
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