debate on universal access to health care

julesa said:
jerryt said:
Unfortunately, the solution's suggested by this "debate" thread are moot and are akin to dowsing a fire with gasoline. The more these parasites get, the more they want. They are insatiable. It will not solve the problem.

And to think of the government controlling your health care.
Imagine a trip to the Department of Motor Vehicles -- but to secure lifesaving treatment for yourself, a spouse or child, rather than simply to obtain a driver's license. What a nightmare." --columnist Carol Platt Liebau
"Governments can't even count votes accurately -- or deliver the mail efficiently. Yet now, somehow, government will run auto companies and guarantee us health care better than private firms? And the public seems eager for that!" --"20/20" co-anchor John Stossel
A real solution will involve regulating (shudder) the amount of monies these zombies can suck out of us while we are sick rather than having the government suck it out of us with increased taxes for their "altruistic" regulation. We also have to preclude lawyers from this feeding frenzy. (rant over)

I think the USPS is pretty good, actually.

I've said over and over, we do NOT need to increase taxes. The US government is already spending more tax money per capita on health care than most other industrialized democracies total health care spending per capita. Everybody seems to assume that "private markets" are somehow magically more efficient than any government program could possibly be. Yet our private markets in the health care industry are incredibly inefficient compared with every other health care system in the WORLD. Are you guys all just going to continue ignoring that fact?

Private markets don't work efficiently in areas where there is an information imbalance between buyer and seller.


Well, we really do not have a private market system.

It's basically a socialistic system. To be a private system, it would be between you and your doctor. The way it is run now, it is between you and your insurance company or between you and medicare... Everyone throws their money into a pot (insurance, medicare...) and takes from that pot. The disconnect between you and your doctor is what causes a lot problems we have with the system.

The day you turn your money over to someone else is the day you lose control over your health care.

Deron.
 
deron
so when did we lose control?
was that when medicare started?
or was it based on the fact that injured are often unable to make decisions?
.
as far as our "private markets" being efficient, actually in terms of creating jobs and generating sales, they are the best worldwide. Best meaning highest sales.(this measure has nothing to do with saving lives, but it sure does stimulate the economy; want a deep recession? cut health care)

it's 16% of GDP!
imagine if congress mandated a 50% cut in healthcare expenses LOL aspirin would then be the #1 drug!
 
Matt Gruber said:
deron
so when did we lose control?
was that when medicare started?
or was it based on the fact that injured are often unable to make decisions?

the president's townhall meeting yesterday made me feel like i have not felt since i heard JFK tell us "we are going to the moon, not because it is easy..." How long has it been since we have had a true leader who can speak from the heart without a teleprompter like Obama did yesterday? Can fixing the healthcare system be that much harder than getting men to the moon and back?

Medicare and Social Security are the fairly recent legacy of Franklin Roosevelt (5th cousin of Teddy) and begun with the Economic Security Act only 75 years ago. Most of us cannot remember back to the system that let our old people starve in the gutter if they had no family to care for them. Hopefully 75 years from now people will not remember when affordable healthcare was a choice unavailable to many of our citizens. Please notice i am not saying "free healthcare", and neither is the president. What we are saying is people should not be driven into bankruptcy by illness in the richest country in the world.
 
Matt Gruber said:
as far as our "private markets" being efficient, actually in terms of creating jobs and generating sales, they are the best worldwide. Best meaning highest sales.(this measure has nothing to do with saving lives, but it sure does stimulate the economy; want a deep recession? cut health care)

it's 16% of GDP!
imagine if congress mandated a 50% cut in healthcare expenses LOL aspirin would then be the #1 drug!

It's no good if you're making up your own definitions of terms. :roll:
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=definition+of+market+efficiency&l=1
 
It's kinda looking like many folks in Mass. are not all that happy with their new healthcare plan.


http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/states_general/massachusetts/massachusetts_26_consider_state_s_health_care_reform_a_success
 
TPA said:
It's kinda looking like many folks in Mass. are not all that happy with their new healthcare plan.


http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/states_general/massachusetts/massachusetts_26_consider_state_s_health_care_reform_a_success

It's kinda looking like MORE folks all over the US are not all that happy with their existing plans, either. Your post is typical of the "no" position taken by the republican party, which completely ignores the facts that clearly show that doing nothing is not an option.

Special interests are mobilizing all over the country to fight on behalf of the big money interests of the drug companies and HMO's and health insurance companies, and they will spend hundreds of millions to fight anything resembling a public option. We must mobilize as well to fight them. The way to fight misinformation is with information. I urge everyone to learn the truth and act on their conscience. But first take the time to learn the truth and do not just listen to the big money TV commercials.
 
julesa said:
Matt Gruber said:
as far as our "private markets" being efficient, actually in terms of creating jobs and generating sales, they are the best worldwide. Best meaning highest sales.(this measure has nothing to do with saving lives, but it sure does stimulate the economy; want a deep recession? cut health care)

it's 16% of GDP!
imagine if congress mandated a 50% cut in healthcare expenses LOL aspirin would then be the #1 drug!

It's no good if you're making up your own definitions of terms. :roll:
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=definition+of+market+efficiency&l=1

healthcare is a HUGE part of the economy! Look what happened when spirling house prices crashed. Find a way to cut healthcare and look out below. U have to have a sense of humor. Houses always go up right?
The NEXT GREAT BUBBLE : HEALTHCARE
What will it hit before it crashes? 40% of GDP? 60% 80%
 
Matt Gruber said:
healthcare is a HUGE part of the economy! Look what happened when spirling house prices crashed. Find to way to cut healthcare and look out below. U have to have a sense of humor. Houses always go up right?
The NEXT GREAT BUBBLE : HEALTHCARE
What will it hit before it crashes? 40% of GDP? 60% 80%



Health care will hit 100% of GDP, with everyone either sick or under treatment, including all the health care workers.
 
GTA1 said:
Health care will hit 100% of GDP, with everyone either sick or under treatment, including all the health care workers.

that's a pretty outrageous unqualified statement without any supporting data, isn't it? I believe it is statistically impossible for health care to become 100% of GDP but i do agree that costs are spiraling out of control.

most of us are too young to remember the sacrifices made by thousands of americans who were forced to give up their ranches in the 1930s so that the TVA could build a dam to bring irrigation and electricity to a huge number of their fellow citizens, and as it turned out to supply the power to Oak Ridge that made it possible to bring an end to WW2 with the nuclear bombs built there. those people had very little, but they gave so that their country could grow. They did NOT give up their ranches so a bunch of insurance companies could suck up hundreds of billions in profits while their neighbors died of preventable illnesses.
 
Dear Bob,

My first read of this thread. I have only skim-read the secondary and so forth, responses.

You are, imo, a hero of the top order. You cannot know how much I admire your gumption and character and know-what-why-for-ism.

You are, to me, a public hero of the top echelon.

I will reply to this thread again, later, when I am less tired out.

WE ARE THE CONQUERORS, WE ARE.....

Your admirer, not a "Queen" singer,

Reid
--------------

PS: NO REPLY. No "thanks for that, Reid, you silly-talking faggot". I like pats, but...that is NOT why I post odes in prose.
I post in public to tell the truth, only. NO REPLY WANTED.
r.

Nick says it best. And he was as straight as an arrow, then, and now:
[youtube]sic_2r7-bHI[/youtube]
 
fukfukfuckfuk!

WE NEED some sort of universal health care, sure.

WE ALSO NEED to aid and succor the old, the very young, the sick and the athlete.

WE NEED to prove every goddamn day, that the CO2 we exhale, makes life greener.

END RANT that was no rant at all, but mere Common Sense.


Thread Killer Reid.


====

self correction. I have almost surely applied to this thread before, just forgotten; it's like, sixteen pages long,
bejebus! (as Homer says).

But I replied to this thread, two above, because B McC moved me to tears...again...

I cry a great deal; often over important matters. I =feel= everything that everybody offers.
Yet if "you" inflame me, I'll knock you on your ass, gentle reader. I am no pansy, weepy, girly boy.

It's a wonder that I have lived this long, happy, and not self-snuffed to get away from reality.
I'm just fine. No worries.

Refuse to be actually unhappy, ever.
 
GTA1 said:
Matt Gruber said:
healthcare is a HUGE part of the economy! Look what happened when spirling house prices crashed. Find a way to cut healthcare and look out below. U have to have a sense of humor. Houses always go up right?
The NEXT GREAT BUBBLE : HEALTHCARE
What will it hit before it crashes? 40% of GDP? 60% 80%



Health care will hit 100% of GDP, with everyone either sick or under treatment, including all the health care workers.
Bob
where is your sense of humor? You(we) have to laugh when somebody else is (usually) paying the bill.
Tax exempt income!
Tax free benefits!
Numerous new treatments/pills!
Everybody wants to live forever!
THE MOTHER OF ALL BUBBLES now in progress
 
This is Bob's thread, and I should not be opining so much.

Health care in the USA, in particular, has gone so high-tech and "protect the doctor from lawsuit",
that even routine "it's probably just a minor infection", scenarios, turn into tens of thousands of dollars of cost to the system,
or to the self-payer.

They run tests to rule out the rare duck that quacks. They do surgeries for ailments that are essentially incurable.

No more letting people die of natural causes. Many deaths are actually hastened by doctors who just need to, for money,
or for their alleged Hipocratic oath, to JUST DO SOMETHING. Hence we have kidney transplants put into people with mulitple-other death-dealing problems. Heart transplants for the elderly? All this costs huge sums of money.

My take: Go the way of all flesh, don't strain the system. Don't put big bucks into the pockets of billion-dollar fraudulent "health care" systems.

Eat and exercise in moderation. Die when your jig is up. We are all slated to die, anyway.

The worst sort of example: lobectomy for lung cancer victims. The five year survival rate for such cancers,
pancreatic, and liver cancer too, is very low, even today. My father died an agonizing death eight months after lung cancer surgery;
his was a hopeless case.

Eddie James, sixty five, lung cancer. He "followed the doctor's recommendation and did the surgical thing.
Four days post op, his remaining lung, for some reason, collapsed, and Eddie died, suffocation, whilst pressing the call button on a cord,
calling for a nurse who came too late: his last gasp was silent and he had a literal "death grip" on that button. Google "death grip rigor mortis" (it's quite rare). What a horrible way to die!
And it was the SURGEONS' fault!

As I wrote elsewhere on one of these panels, "Surgeons surge". Ask a surgeon for advice, and you get, "Well, let's operate and then do chemo and radiation therapy." In lung cancer, the most common, lethal cancer, people mostly all die. I know of only one person who lived many years after such a cancer operation; his lung cancer was of a species not particularly lethal: "oat cell carcinoma", and it was caught =early=

My dad was not so lucky. He could have lived two years or so had he NOT gone for the surgery, from which he never recovered.
He was dead in eight months, eight months of pure, daily agony. I put his body in the casket with my bare hands! I am torn up over this sort of thing all the time.

POINT: when we are confronted with our mortality, just deal with it. A heart disease patient can often live for decades without "bypass surgery"; just chill and take meds.

But, as Thurber so famously said in a book preface, blackly, "The claw of the sea-puss gets us all in the end".

And surgeons surge, and health care costs rocket ever higher, not for the benefit of the ill,
but to MAKE MONEY for the medicos and for the systems they are part of;
can hardly blame the doctor who takes home, after taxes, 500 grand per year.
Five thousand dollars per hour 'wages', and sometimes, all for naught.
Remember Eddie James, a man who did not know enough to get a second, third and fourth opinion.
He went with the flow, right down to the morgue, to be incinerated. He, like my dad, could have lived for a year or three
had he NOT had surgery for his lung cancer.
He was a good guy. DEAD because of $$$$$ vainglorious, false-idol physicians.

Yet, some doctors are miracle workers. It's just...that the system is so overwrought, and now, a mess, totally unfixable.

My opining,
r.
 
....universal access....

I qualify for free-for-life VA Hospital health care, cradle to grave, because I am a Viet-era veteran of the USNR.

Uh, no. I have not enrolled. I would become a "member" of a "health team" of doctors, assembly line style, caring for derelict human
heroes of wars past and present.

Google "Miami VA Hospital Infection" and see just one reason why I won't want to go there unless I break a leg in two, or something similarly fixable.

IF I get terminal heart disease (very likely, given my health/family history, I elect to live it, or die with it.
IF my SLE worsens, and it must, I will self-euthanize if life becomes too bleak.

I won't cost The Sucky System useless dollars. I just won't.
I've had a good, long run, considering I should have died several times, at least (auto accidents, close calls, HIV risk, but no HIV in me)
I elect to go quietly into that long, silent night, preferably in my sleep. A heart failure would be great. Kidney failure? I won't go for a transplant or dialysis; I'll euthanize (it's not suicide, any more than when we put down a beloved pet).

I will not go in for "life prolonging" treatment, other than for simple, low cost (generic meds) such as anti-hypertensive drugs that I take to keep my BP from blowing out my heart or cerebral arteries.

I am not worried, afraid of anything, but for a long, drawn-out "Free Ride" to the hospice. The gov't would pay for all that.
I won't do it, period. Universal common sense, is what I term this philosophy.
 
Reid
Dr. says my 87yr old mom has cancer, wants to operate. says "discuss this with your family".
So we discuss, and decide to have a look at the biopsy results, maybe get 2nd opinion.
So Mom asks for lab report.
NOT SENT!
3x a day for 2 weeks they call and pressure her to operate so she could "live to 95".
Each time she says WHERE ARE MY LAB TESTS? SEND THEM.
So they NEVER sent them and stopped calling!
Mom is not in any pain from this "cancer"
I think it is cancer of the health care system!
what do you think?
 
Reid Welch said:
This is Bob's thread, and I should not be opining so much.

that is absolutely untrue, reid; whether you agree with me or not the only way we can go forward is by discussing the issues. i appreciate that you agree with me on the basic issues, but you would be just as welcome to join the discourse if you did not agree with me. That's why i called the thread a debate.

to clarify my position right now; i agree with the president that we cannot pass single-payer. i also agree with the insurance companies that a government plan is a threat to them. tough sh...t for them. Tell them to find a better business model that involves keeping their customers healthy instead of limiting care if they get sick.

I am not a newcomer to the healthcare system. I was on a team that built some of the first generation of MRI machines. I watched as GE crushed the competition by giving away mri machines, and then as doctors started to use unnecessary contrast agents to get better machine throughput. I agree that the profit motive is an important part of our system, but we have all seen the results of unrestrained capitalism and our grandchildren will be paying off the cutthroat investors who profited from it.

We do not let anyone profit by inserting a layer of bureaucracy between defense contractors and the army. Why should we allow insurance companies to profit by doing the same between us and our health care providers? The health insurers are scared to death of competition from a public plan while they pay people to convince us that the government cannot run an efficient program. Why are they so afraid of the competition if the government is so incompetent?

The United States has grown and flourished through the sacrifices of many of our citizens who gave up some of what they had so others in the future might have liberty. How can any of us tell our fellow citizens that providing them with health care they can afford is too costly for us; especially when we are faced with the irrefutable statistics that show we are paying twice what other industrialized countries are paying and we are getting less?

As for Matt's mom, it is of course ridiculous that they cannot get the test results. Hopefully the current campaign to digitize health records will create a situation where Matt could have said, 'i know you can get the results on your palmtop and i am not leaving your office until you do'. The answer might be that the healthcare system guidelines established by congress say we cannot spend that much money on someone over 85. At least then we would know where we stand and have the opportunity to work to change the limits.
 
Matt Gruber said:
Reid
Dr. says my 87yr old mom has cancer, wants to operate. says "discuss this with your family".
So we discuss, and decide to have a look at the biopsy results, maybe get 2nd opinion.
So Mom asks for lab report.
NOT SENT!
3x a day for 2 weeks they call and pressure her to operate so she could "live to 95".
Each time she says WHERE ARE MY LAB TESTS? SEND THEM.
So they NEVER sent them and stopped calling!
Mom is not in any pain from this "cancer"
I think it is cancer of the health care system!
what do you think?
I am not qualified, nor would it be ethical for me to opine,
DON'T PUT HER INTO THAT HORROR MILL.


More later, in this form. I need to think.
But, she is your mother. You are torn to bits.
And she? Is she at peace with coming mortality?
If so, what is to worry about?

The decision to do heroic med procedures is very tough, and sometimes,
absolutely fatal: they die sooner than if they'd been left alone and held and fed and loved.

I can and will cite a couple of actual case histories of people lost from my life before it was their "time".

Father.
Bernice Caster.
Ray Busse
more...

KILLED by angels who are kindly, mostly, but not angels: they are merely imperfect people, these medicos!

_____________________

Medicos--to the finish

surgeons surge.
dentists dent.
chiropractors quack.
morticians say "ack!"

 
the battle is heating up, and the insurance and drug company special interests are flooding the airwaves with negative propaganda spending 1.4 million a day. They do not want to provide care to every citizen: they would prefer that poor people just go away and die. Even the AMA is in favor of a public option and providing health care to everyone.

Chuck Grassley, the republican senator supposedly working on health care reform, was asked recently why every citizen should not have access to the same health insurance plan as the senator, which is the federal employee health plan the ama wants to be the fallback plan for everyone. His response was "go work for the federal government." Not an adequate solution, in my humble opinion. I think he is a member of the same party that screams for less government, so it seems a bit strange to suggest we all go to work for them if we want health insurance.

We will never try to keep people from spending their own money on whatever level of care they want. Rich people will continue to get better care than poor people, no matter what we do. Everyone should have access to a level of care that is at least as good as the care in the rest of the industrialized world, since we are already paying twice as much as they are, and we are not getting it. As for me, no heart transplants, no liver transplants; give them to someone more deserving.
 
Will the President, Vice President, Senators, Congressmen... be on the same health care plan?

I wonder how many of them send their kids to government schools?

Deron.
 
My neighbor comes back from the hospital in a wheelchair!
Problem:
He can't fit it into the bathroom or maneuver it even if he broke down the door jam.
Bathroom is too small!
He lives alone.
Quiz:
What is the systems' solution and cost?
What is the lowest cost, & faster solution?
 
I just can not believe, that anyone believes, that the gov't should provide health care for all.

How is that possible? Does the gov't do anything well?

How and/or Why is it the gov't responsibility to provide health care?
 
Does the gov't do anything well?

For 44 cents, the government will take a piece of paper and deliver it anywhere in the lower 48 plus Alaska & Hawaii.

Anyone who has complained about the service in the post-office has never been to UPS.

It is telling that folks in Canada, the UK, Australia, France, Sweden, Japan, Spain, Italy... etc. etc. etc. aren't clamoring to de-nationalize their health care industry. Sure, there are some astro-turfed entities that would, but the citizenry isn't.

It's almost as if they are getting more for their money taking the insurance industry out of the equation.
 
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