debate on universal access to health care

[julesa]

Otherwise, our tax dollars will be used to give 'those people' boob-jobs, and our infant mortality rates might approach the rest of the developed world.

Huh, my sarcasmometer keeps making a funny noise... :wink:

I was listening to the radio this morning, and a news report came over stating that the state employees health insurance was to signficantly adjust co-pays and monthly premiums for smokers and folks with higher BMIs.

I'm bothered by the use of BMI, a simple weight to height ratio, which doesn't account for the fact that many exceptionally healthy, highly athletic people have a lot more muscle mass than less healthy people, and muscle weighs more than fat. Even if I got down to 10% body fat, which is low for a guy, I would still be considered overweight on the BMI scale. As it is, I'm almost considered obese at 210 lbs, 5'10" even though I eat reasonable portions, exercise regularly, and play on a soccer team.

 

[Matt Gruber]

it said another post was, made, and deleted my post

 

[bobmcree]

thanks to everyone for their comments. please keep it up. the forces that do not want the uninsured americans to have access to health care are gearing up the misinformation campaign. the truth is that waiting months for an elective procedure in canada is a hell of a lot better than having no access at all in america.

when my back pain finally became too much for me to work, i was able to continue my health insurance, for $1200 a month, for 18 months. It then went up to $1800 a month, and since my disability is $1900 and i had exhausted my savings, i was left with nothing. Even after the social security system agreed that i was 100% disabled for life, they made me wait 2 YEARS to become eligible for medicare. This is insane. Most people have to fight for a year or two to be accepted for SSD, and exhaust their savings in the process. Making people who have been adjudicated to be disabled go for years without health care is just stupid. Once I became eligible for medicare and had access to care again, i was able to go forward with treatment that could have let me go back to work years ago. The cost to the system of me not working was a lot higher than the cost of providing me with treatment years ago might have been.

universal access to health care is something we CAN afford. i would MUCH rather have that than pictures from deep space. If we can afford to provide Israel with billions in aid every year, and we can afford a trillion dollars for George Bush's illegal war, then we can damned well afford for every citizen to go to the doctor when they are sick. NOT providing access to basic health care for every american is what is too expensive; it is destroying our health care system and soon there will be no emergency room at all when one of us is hurt in an accident, because they all went broke treating the uninsured. the people trying to tell us differently are lying, and of course, they all have good insurance themselves.

 

[swbluto]

Indeed, those who don't have an individual problem with something will often be the type that claim that there isn't a problem. And, indeed, for them there isn't. But what happens when in the future there becomes one, for them? Does something not being individually sensed indicate non-existence? Could it just be as well a too narrow of perception that missed something?

And, indeed, having lack of healthcare for a significant portion of the population is against society's cumulative well-being. I was looking at "Universal healthcare" on Wikipedia, and apparently United States is the only developed country without some form of universal health-care. Reading a little bit more into the finer details, it indicated that....

Federal law ensures public access to emergency services regardless of ability to pay.

That sounds dandy, except... for what about those cases when an emergency could've been prevented or a problem staved off before it grew into an emergency? Is it not Ben Franklin who said an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? Why wouldn't a rational society invest an ounce only to cost it a pound later on?

Whoops, I assumed the U.S. was rational. I guess this indicates our society is more willing to save an ounce if only it means at the future cost of a pound. I guess the saying "A penny wise and a pound foolish" doesn't sound too inappropriate.

 

[deronmoped]

Some people have low metabolism. Some cannot control their weight. Punish them for being who they are? Deny them care?

The only thing they can not control is their over eating.

Face it, people have no discipline, they eat when they are "not" hungry, they keep eating even though their body tells them that they are full and they do not burn (exercise) the calories that they consume.

Answer me this, if you consume 1,500 calories and during the day you burn 1,500 calories through your daily activities, how does the low metabolism argument work?

How did this stupid excuse make it anywhere?

Deron.

 

[deronmoped]

Oh, I'm fat because I have low metabolism. :lol:

Then eat less you idiot.

Deron.

 

[Anonymous]

.

 

[set]

Regardless of metabolism, some everyday chemicals people ingest affect the thyroid and causes unnecessary weight gain. The simplified excuse for this problem is "glandular".

Stress is also a big health problem as it can be the root cause of many conditions, severe or mild. Stress can increase weight, cause anxiety, even dandruff. Reducing stress may sound easy, but it's a very, very common problem. Physical and mental stress can cause more strain on your body. Physical stress such as parasites in the intestines and mental stress such as a family member dying can trigger imbalance in cortisol level and your adrenal glands work harder to compensate. When stress becomes too high, you die.

Excess weight is the most common physical stress that plagues Americans. With excess weight, it causes more stress on our bones and joints and makes our heart work harder than it normal has too. We tend to treat symptoms when we think of health care. We do not look at the underlying cause. Usually, the underlying cause of our health problems are environmental and dietary. Sometimes, rarely, it's genetics.

If we are a product of our environment and the air is unfit to breath, then let's clean up the air and see how well we feel. If our health problems are caused by diet then let's change the way we eat and see how healthy we become. If there are fast food stops on every corner, then it's no wonder that Americans are getting sick and begging for better/free health care. Can we afford universal free health care? Yes. Can we prevent most health problems? Yes. If we had to choose between the two: Let someone take care of you or take care of yourself; Which one would you choose? What would help us and our society in the long run: Treating health problems now or preventing them in the future? I think the answer is clear.

 

[bobmcree]

the idea that there is access to emergency care independent of ability to pay in the U.S. is a joke. If somebody with no assets has their leg mangled in an accident they will likely have it amputated, while somebody with means can afford to find an orthopedic surgeon outside the emergency room who will repair the damaged limb, and they will have access to the physical therapy necessary to regain use. The person with no money will get a free crutch. Somebody who has just enough income to pay their bills and rent but not enough to pay $1000 a month for insurance will be driven into bankruptcy when the ambulance bill and hospitalization costs of about $25k are turned over to collection agencies. They will then be forced to declare bankruptcy, lose their credit rating, and be forced out of the middle class forever. This is exactly what the oligarchy wants; to be rid of the troublesome middle class for good, and have just rich and poor. Poor people are easier to control.

Not even everyone with insurance has good access to care. I worked at one time for a small medical instrumentation company, and they provided insurance through Prudential. I had a bicycle accident while i was so foolish as not to be wearing a helmet, and sustained a severe head injury. The ambulance came, took me to the hospital in Grass Valley, California. Over then next 5 days my condition continued to deteriorate, while the young doctor my insurance company provided could not help me, and could not get any neurologist or neurosurgeon in the county to see me at all, because they would not accept my insurance. I came very close to death, and would have died had it not been for friends who arranged for me to be transferred to Sacramento General, over an hour away, where there was a neuro specialist who would accept my insurance. As soon as the neurosurgeon saw me he put me on a morphine drip and other medications, and i spent a week on the edge of death before turning around, all because my insurance was not good enough for the docs in Grass Valley.

 

[set]

Bobmcree,

I can feel your pain. Not to your extent but i sympathize. When I was in High School, I suffered a severe head injury while skateboarding. The accident split my head opened and pulled my scalp back. My friend who was with me recalled seeing white (my skull), and then a huge gush of blood poured over my face and down my leg. I staggered to a pay phone and called 911. Some guys came out of a bowling alley and just looked at me dazzled. When the ambulance came, I was rushed to the state hospital. There, I hear the EMT's joking at my expense while i was rushed saying that, "...His helmet fell off and he split his head opened.." How professional. I got to the hospital and waited 4 hours soaking in blood to the point where it dried up. There were people ahem... in "front" of me confused as to why I was not treated before them. I even heard a young woman say, "what about him, shouldn't he get help first?" All the while, i was tired, thirsty, dizzy and in pain. When I finally got care, I received 17 staples to the head after countless interior stitches. Laying on the uncomfortable stretcher and not being able to move my neck, I was angry. Yes I had an accident and it was my fault, but the care I got was horrendous. I was thinking, "I used to give blood. I used to donate to the so and so foundation. Breast cancer, Parkinson's, etc. What the hell for? To be mistreated like this?" I was angry at our health care system. After that incident, I never gave a penny to any health care "cause". I stopped donating blood. I lost faith in our health care.

 

[bobmcree]

i have not given up on our system. i know the only way change will happen is if it starts with me, since the universe i inhabit is created at least in some small part from inside my brain. along with thousands of others, in their communities, i will be hosting a local group of organizers on june 6 to talk about how we can bring about the changes needed to provide health care to every american. i urge others who are not ready to give up on the hope of equality in delivery of health care to join with their local groups and fight the special interests who want to maintain the status quo. change will not happen without work. they have money, we have time. we will win. join the fight. You need nothing more than a willingness to work for change. Everything else will be provided to help anyone with a willingness to work for change to become a community organizer. Obama started as one. To listen to the president's message go to http://my.barackobama.com/page/m2/55c13fe2/6c698d80/2afce863/11884ed1/4279793650/VEsE/

 

[deronmoped]

I'm not fat myself at 160 pounds but I can tell you that many people have food and eating disorders.
Slim people usually have high metabolism, and most don't have to worry about weight.
Your lack of understanding on this very revealing, and use of the term idiot is low class.

No, idiot is a good term for people that can not figure out that they are fat because they eat more calories then they burn in a day.

I mean how simple can it be, calorie intake has to equal calories burned or you will gain weight.

This will work every time for a person that wants to lose weight. Consume less calories then you burn and you will lose weight.

Or are you now going to tell me that I can gain weight by consuming less calories then I burn?

Deron.

 

[bobmcree]

This will work every time for a person that wants to lose weight. Consume less calories then you burn and you will lose weight.

Or are you now going to tell me that I can gain weight by consuming less calories then I burn?

Deron.

ask any woman and they will tell you that yes they can. it is called water weight. seriously though, there are people with metabolic problems who will gain weight even when they are feeling like they are starving all the time. it is easy for those of us without the problem to say it does not exist, but when it comes to resisting the temptations of the flesh, let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.

i have often wondered, as i am sure many have, how someone gets to the point where they weigh 400 pounds. Isn't there a point where they look in the mirror and decide enough is enough? The answer is the same as the answer to the question "why do teenage girls sometimes slash their arms with razor blades?" The fact is that it happens, it is mental illness, and it is treatable. It is not treatable by reading self help books; it requires the intervention of a professional. If people had access to affordable medical care i am sure that some of those people would have received the mental health services they needed to help them to face the reasons why they overeat. I personally have known women who were abused as children and purposely became too fat for any man to want out of a desire to avoid the trauma of childhood repeating. Should we deny them health care?

The bottom line is only a trained pro can determine why a person is morbidly obese and help them to recover. I believe society is better off if we help these people to overcome their psychological problems than we are when we have to cut a hole in the wall of their apartment building to take them to a hospital in a moving van. None of ushas the right to judge another. We must approach the issue with pragmatism. It is much cheaper for us to provide them with medically supervised weight loss than it is to deal with them in crisis. The only way this will happen is when we all have affordable access to health care.

 

[deronmoped]

I just though of another reason why not to have universal health care.

Not having to pay for something out of your pocket encourages waste.

Lets use dental care as a example. Say you get all your dental done for you by the government. Are you now going to be more diligent about taking care of your teeth with free dental work? Or, if you had to pay out of your pocket would you take better care of your teeth. Having to pay for something is a big motivator for people in finding ways not to have to dig deep into their wallets. Most people would learn real quick about taking care of their teeth after shelling out thousands of dollars for unnecessary dental care.

I actually used this philosophy when it came to my knees.

I used to play soccer three times a week, but that all ended when I started to have problems with my one knee. I figured that if I wanted to avoid having my knees replaced when I get older, I better take care of them now. Now if I knew I would be getting free knee replacement when I got older, I may have said to hell with it, I'm going to enjoy playing soccer now and just get the knee surgery. Why not, it would be freeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Deron.

 

[julesa]

Oh, I'm fat because I have low metabolism. :lol:

Then eat less you idiot.

You are the very model of compassion, and obviously know everything there is to know about the human metabolism.

I just though of another reason why not to have universal health care.

Not having to pay for something out of your pocket encourages waste.

That's a very impressive piece of reasoning, I can see why it took you this long to get so far. Now, for the cupie doll, all you have to do is explain how someone who owns a comprehensive health insurance plan, who pays the same amount every month whether they go to the doctor or not, gets discouraged from wasteful behavior.

 

[deronmoped]

This will work every time for a person that wants to lose weight. Consume less calories then you burn and you will lose weight.

Or are you now going to tell me that I can gain weight by consuming less calories then I burn?

Deron.

ask any woman and they will tell you that yes they can. it is called water weight. seriously though, there are people with metabolic problems who will gain weight even when they are feeling like they are starving all the time. it is easy for those of us without the problem to say it does not exist, but when it comes to resisting the temptations of the flesh, let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.

i have often wondered, as i am sure many have, how someone gets to the point where they weigh 400 pounds. Isn't there a point where they look in the mirror and decide enough is enough? The answer is the same as the answer to the question "why do teenage girls sometimes slash their arms with razor blades?" The fact is that it happens, it is mental illness, and it is treatable. It is not treatable by reading self help books; it requires the intervention of a professional. If people had access to affordable medical care i am sure that some of those people would have received the mental health services they needed to help them to face the reasons why they overeat. I personally have known women who were abused as children and purposely became too fat for any man to want out of a desire to avoid the trauma of childhood repeating. Should we deny them health care?

The bottom line is only a trained pro can determine why a person is morbidly obese and help them to recover. I believe society is better off if we help these people to overcome their psychological problems than we are when we have to cut a hole in the wall of their apartment building to take them to a hospital in a moving van. None of ushas the right to judge another. We must approach the issue with pragmatism. It is much cheaper for us to provide them with medically supervised weight loss than it is to deal with them in crisis. The only way this will happen is when we all have affordable access to health care.

I do not buy this, woe is me.

Tough, some people get dealt a worse hand then others. Some people overcome it, others do not. Guess what, this is called life. Take a look at John McCain, any idea what he went through and eventually overcome. There are millions upon millions of people that have it tough in life, yet they move on and make something of themselves. Us Americans have no idea what it is like to struggle like most people in this world. Oh I'm soooo fat, I can't reach the remote. This has turned into a blame it on someone/something else society. It's not my problem I have to a eat crap all day long, that's how I bury my problems. I'm a drunk because my father beat me. I shoot up because my mother was a whore. I abuse prescription drugs because my daddy abused me. I beat my wife because my that's what my dad did to my mother.

And guess what, most people have problems and struggles day in and day out, yet, they do not overeat, abuse alcohol, beat their kids, shoot up...

People make choices, they have free will, it's as simple as that. You either put down that fork after you are full, or you finish the whole dam cake, which will it be, obese or not?

Deron.

 

[bobmcree]

i would love it if we could base our system on whether people deserve health care or not. we can't. we live in the real world, where this is just not possible. we have to work within the confines of this reality. it is cheaper to give fat people access to health care than it is to have them show up in the ER with a heart attack and treat them there. and we WILL treat them there, until your idea of a fascist state that denies care to people judged by someone else to be behaving badly comes to pass. Hopefully we can develop some sort of sliding scale where people pay a fair price and people who ignore their doctors recommendation to lose weight have to pay more, or people who choose to smoke pay more than non smokers. Until we make cigarettes illegal it is a tough task. Pragmatism is the name of the game, and it is the only game in town.

 

[deronmoped]

Oh, I'm fat because I have low metabolism. :lol:

Then eat less you idiot.

You are the very model of compassion, and obviously know everything there is to know about the human metabolism.

I just though of another reason why not to have universal health care.

Not having to pay for something out of your pocket encourages waste.

That's a very impressive piece of reasoning, I can see why it took you this long to get so far. Now, for the cupie doll, all you have to do is explain how someone who owns a comprehensive health insurance plan, who pays the same amount every month whether they go to the doctor or not, gets discouraged from wasteful behavior.

Guess what, try using that health care plan. You will soon find you will have plenty of reasons not to.

It's like auto insurance, you do not dare use it, they will up the rates. Have a small fender bender, you are better off paying for it out of your pocket. Get into a expensive accident and you could find yourself with higher rates.

Same thing goes for health insurance. Never try to get health insurance with a preexisting condition, you better be dam healthy, or good luck finding coverage you can afford. Try using your health insurance and your rates are bound to go up. You a smoker, forget it, take up smoking and they will drop you. I wonder what it cost for coverage if you are obese? What about coverage for risk takers, or people that work in high injury rate industries, how much extra does that cost? What about how you are covered, did you buy 100% coverage for megabucks, or did you get the lesser more affordable coverage that has conditions? Limits on drugs, hospital stays, certain operations...

Deron.

 

[bobmcree]

I just though of another reason why not to have universal health care.
Not having to pay for something out of your pocket encourages waste.

Pragmatism is the philosophy of considering practical consequences and real effects to be vital components of meaning and truth. In other words; the system we have is not working. We cannot change human behavior overnight. It is cheaper and better for society if people have access to affordable health care, whether some people believe they deserve it or not. Having someone go bankrupt because they broke a leg doing something stupid benefits nobody. If you mean that universal access to care would mean that somebody could choose to go to the hospital for their broken leg instead of just staying off it and hoping for the best, then becoming a drag on society for the rest of their life, then i believe you are making a self-defeating argument.

It's like auto insurance, you do not dare use it, they will up the rates. Have a small fender bender, you are better off paying for it out of your pocket. Get into a expensive accident and you could find yourself with higher rates.

you cannot compare a raise in auto insurance rates with losing everything one has because of medical bills. well, maybe YOU can but most of us do not feel it is even close.

i do not support the idea that somebody with a minor injury should be permitted to go to the ER and have immediate free treatment, and neither does President Obama. Our plan is to let people who like the insurance they have keep it, and provide government-paid health insurance with premiums on a sliding scale according to income to everyone else. My personal hope is that the latter will eventually become so good and such a good deal that people will abandon their other insurance and opt in. Private health care insurance companies are rationing care now, so that argument is moot. The real issue is that the insurance companies are raking in hundreds of billions for which we get nothing but a lot of people working to deny us care when we need it. if we had a single payer plan we could use that money to provide care to everyone. I do not believe we can get to a single payer system directly from where we are, so i am supporting the president's plan. I will keep after him about single payer, and solicit others to do the same. In the meantime i will work for whatever improvements in access to affordable health care that we can achieve.

 

[Matt Gruber]

bob
what is your plan to fund the government?
national sales tax?
payroll tax?
income tax?
or what?

 

[julesa]

I didn't see Bob posting a strong position on tax reform. I believe the Administration's proposal is to offer government health insurance at basically the going rate for most Americans, with a sliding scale for those with lower incomes. Some of the extra cost incurred by covering those most in need will be balanced by increases in efficiency, purchasing power, and preventative care that helps avoid more expensive emergency care later. Most of that free emergency care is paid for by the hospitals today, who increase their prices for everyone else in order to pay for the free (and extra-expensive) "emergency" care.

Paying specialists in emergency and trauma care to take care of something that could have been handled by a GP before it became an emergency is a real waste of resources. Emergency room cases are going up, and fewer hospitals are offering 24 hour emergency services.

I don't hear Canadians complaining too much about their waiting lists for non-emergency care. After all, it's non-emergency care, it's being deprioritized.

ER wait time in the US has been increasing from 4-11% per year from 1997 to 2004. Blacks, Hispanics, women, and patients seen in urban ERs waited longer than other patients.
http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/abstract/hlthaff.27.2.w84v1

in 2004 25% of heart attack victims waited more than 50 minutes to see a doctor. Average wait was 20 minutes, a big increase from the 8 minute average for heart attack cases in 1997.
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2008/january/harvard_study_finds_.php

2006 average ER wait time in the US is 3 hours, 42 minutes:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15817906/

 

[Matt Gruber]

i pay $106/mo for blue cross. i'm 56 no claims past 20 yrs.
i switched from state farm ; it went from 1k/yr to 4k/yr in 3 yrs.
what would my obama rate be?

 

[julesa]

i pay $106/mo for blue cross. i'm 56 no claims past 20 yrs.
i switched from state farm ; it went from 1k/yr to 4k/yr in 3 yrs.
what would my obama rate be?

I dunno. That's a very low rate. Are you self-employed, or is your employer helping?
No claims at all? Do you get regular physicals?

 

[Matt Gruber]

i pay $106/mo for blue cross. i'm 56 no claims past 20 yrs.
i switched from state farm ; it went from 1k/yr to 4k/yr in 3 yrs.
what would my obama rate be?

I dunno. That's a very low rate. Are you self-employed, or is your employer helping?
No claims at all? Do you get regular physicals?

no regulars. when i was 50 i wanted to get a PSA test. Lab said they can't test me; must have Dr. as per FL law!
Local Dr. said i had to wait 3 mos and pay $250! NOW, THIS is PROOF there is CRAZY waste in the system.
No way i would pay $250 for a test.
Last year local hospital had a FREE screening. Got 4 tests free; psa was 2.9. Never saw anyone that said they were a DR.
.
no employers helping on rate. If u consider stock trading a job, i'm self emp.
.

 

[deronmoped]

"Canada's healthcare spending is expected to reach $171.9 billion, or $5,170 per person, in 2008".

Now that is some expensive health care coverage. You can get coverage for a family of four for like $8,000.00 a year under our current system.

"About 30% of Canadians' health care is paid for through the private sector. This mostly goes towards services not covered or only partially covered by Medicare, such as prescription drugs, dentistry and optometry. Some 65% of Canadians have some form of supplementary private health insurance; many of them receive it through their employers".

And you still have to go out and buy more coverage.

"Canada's shortage of medical practitioners causes problems.[35] With 2.1 doctors per thousand population in 2006, Canada is well below the OECD average of 3.1. Canada's 8.8 nurses per thousand was also below the OECD average of 9.7.[36] Suggested solutions include increasing the number of training spaces for doctors in Canada, as well as streamlining the licensing process for foreign doctors already in the country".

With all this extra money being spent on universal health care in Canada you think the people would have the best health coverage in the world.

Deron.