debate on universal access to health care
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Matt Gruber
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huh?Miles said:
say scientists find a way to stop the aging clock, but it costs $1 million per year. Those that can't afford it will complain about being given a death sentence.
What plan could afford to keep everybody healthy forever at $1m each/year?
So darwin kicks in, successful people that can afford it, say alive and everybody else dies. How horrible!
Well, I don't think anyone knows what will happen in 100 years. We can make some good guesses but that's about it. If your prediction does come true who's to say it will be expensive (or even desirable)? Right now we have basic "life extension" and it's as simple as eating right and getting exercise. That's pretty cheap.
In general I'd like to point out that "someone else" already helps pay for our health care. I pay a premium every month but the largest part of my insurance is payed by my employer, not me. Also, that money (mine and my company's) goes to the insurer, part of which goes to cover the costs of someone else's claim. I'm certain that I and my company combined have payed far more to the insurance companies than I have ever received back over the years.
So let us compare apples with apples. Right now almost none of us can afford to pay for our medical expenses over a lifetime out of pocket. We need to rely on the contributions of others in our insurance plan to be able to pay for a serious illness - IF we are deemed to be covered by our plan. But there are drawbacks to our current method. When I switch jobs I get new insurance and a whole new list of "preexisting" problems that won't be covered. These problem may have occured when I was under my last insurance plan and been covered by that insurer but now that I have a new insurer they may not be covered. THIS SUCKS. Then, I may not have the same quality of coverage - maybe no chiropractor or naturopath or maybe a different doctor all together. THIS SUCKS. My new job may not even offer insurance at all! Chances are if my company can't (or won't) pay for insurance then they sure as hell won't be paying me enough to go and get it on my own. I would suggest that the only people who don't have help paying for insurance are the uninsured.
Long term thinking is smart. But, I say that we need to be more focused on the problems of this moment.
In general I'd like to point out that "someone else" already helps pay for our health care. I pay a premium every month but the largest part of my insurance is payed by my employer, not me. Also, that money (mine and my company's) goes to the insurer, part of which goes to cover the costs of someone else's claim. I'm certain that I and my company combined have payed far more to the insurance companies than I have ever received back over the years.
So let us compare apples with apples. Right now almost none of us can afford to pay for our medical expenses over a lifetime out of pocket. We need to rely on the contributions of others in our insurance plan to be able to pay for a serious illness - IF we are deemed to be covered by our plan. But there are drawbacks to our current method. When I switch jobs I get new insurance and a whole new list of "preexisting" problems that won't be covered. These problem may have occured when I was under my last insurance plan and been covered by that insurer but now that I have a new insurer they may not be covered. THIS SUCKS. Then, I may not have the same quality of coverage - maybe no chiropractor or naturopath or maybe a different doctor all together. THIS SUCKS. My new job may not even offer insurance at all! Chances are if my company can't (or won't) pay for insurance then they sure as hell won't be paying me enough to go and get it on my own. I would suggest that the only people who don't have help paying for insurance are the uninsured.
Long term thinking is smart. But, I say that we need to be more focused on the problems of this moment.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
quote mclovin "right now almost none of us can afford to pay for our medical expenses over a lifetime out of pocket" .
Well, there is the crux of the problem. Pooling money only works short term, as time goes by, all the pools have to go bust, based on your own admission. NONE OF US CAN AFFORD TO PAY....
Healthcare pools are just another giant ponzi scheme.
Well, there is the crux of the problem. Pooling money only works short term, as time goes by, all the pools have to go bust, based on your own admission. NONE OF US CAN AFFORD TO PAY....
Healthcare pools are just another giant ponzi scheme.
John in CR
100 TW
Matt Gruber said:
Finally, on the 28th page we get to the root of the problem, which is health care costs. They must be brought under control or no system can work in the long term, other than the best care going to those rich enough to afford it. That certainly isn't what is being discussed, because it would require fundamental changes.
John
"Needs" includes affordability which is best done by free markets.gogo said:
A big problem with the discussion is that we get distortions like this:
julesa said:
Good grief, we have never had laissez-faire capitalism. We are a mixed economy and our government is in the pockets of special interests.
If the government hadn't seized control of welfare and charity (in name) and then taxed us and squandered our money, we'd be taking care of each other just fine. I just came from a family gathering where I found out that a hard working and frugal relative had just gifted the local university with several millions of dollars. Americans don't need guns held to their heads to be conscientious.
chet
100 W
How do we know that the cost of premium care will will forever go higher. Like the car industry over the last 100 years. More production (more people insured) made automobiles affordable to the working class heroes, lower insurance costs will have average Joe assured of health care.
Matt Gruber said:
BaddaBING! We have agreement on a point of an issue - sorta. I could see how my comment, out of context, makes it look like I'm hanging myself (but I'm not, really). My point was that it is under the current system that very few can afford to pay out of pocket etc etc. It is our CURRENT system that, to me, looks like it has many draw-backs and no real longterm propects. But hey, I certainly don't have all the answers - maybe I'm wrong. Show me how an evolved version of our current system will deal with spiraling costs and you may just "convert" me. But that will be tough.
But until then I'll feel a public option is a strong reformist tool that will help drive costs down but ONLY if government is serious about dealing with big pharma and the like - admittedly I do wonder if that can/will happen. I can't possibly see a completely free market being able to drive down costs on its own for a myriad of reasons. Even if the current revisionist plan fails in congress COSTS STILL NEED TO BE ADDRESSED. Decreased costs will likely equate to more access for a greater period of time. IMO fundemental change is needed and it is likely to take a great deal of effort to do that - on both sides of the aisle.
As far as Ponzi schemes...ehhh. Sorta, I guess. Aren't Ponzi schems based upon a fraud?
deronmoped
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Well guess what folks, for the foreseeable future, no matter what is done, health care cost will always continue to rise.
That is the problem with coming up with more cures, drugs, procedures...
My Dad had a new heart valve put in, that was not available not to many years ago, same thing with his new knee. More people are beating cancer. I had a friend that had cancer and is now living because of a new procedure.
Would we have all these new drugs and life enhancing procedures if we were cheap misers, had some government agency, where it's primary goal was to control cost.
Who among us would risk investing our money in a industry that could not make us a profit off of some new breakthrough drug. Where is the incentive go to school for ten years only to have the government tell you what they can make as a doctor. Who wants to risk building a hospital when your profit is decided by some government bureaucrat.
Of course it was a lot cheaper, when they couldn't do anything for you.
Deron.
That is the problem with coming up with more cures, drugs, procedures...
My Dad had a new heart valve put in, that was not available not to many years ago, same thing with his new knee. More people are beating cancer. I had a friend that had cancer and is now living because of a new procedure.
Would we have all these new drugs and life enhancing procedures if we were cheap misers, had some government agency, where it's primary goal was to control cost.
Who among us would risk investing our money in a industry that could not make us a profit off of some new breakthrough drug. Where is the incentive go to school for ten years only to have the government tell you what they can make as a doctor. Who wants to risk building a hospital when your profit is decided by some government bureaucrat.
Of course it was a lot cheaper, when they couldn't do anything for you.
Deron.
deronmoped
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gogo said:
Totally right.
Everything has the hell regulated out of it.
Look at health insurance, you can not buy it across state lines.
"A policy that costs $3,589 a year in heavily regulated New York would cost less than half that much--just $1,538--in less-regulated California, according to a September 2002 report by ehealthinsurance, an online health insurance brokerage".
http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/17150/Bill_Would_Allow_Consumers_to_Purchase_Health_Insurance_Across_State_Lines.html
The government wants their hands in everything because they get a cut. Is it not sad that you send a dollar to Washington and when that dollar is sent back to the state you live in they robbed ninety cents out of it.
Deron.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
Ponzi scheme is often, but not always:
when YOU pay in and SOMEBODY ELSE gets paid.
To protect yourself, save money in the BANK, where you can get it when u need it.
I pay $122/mo-blue cross, about the lowest price i can find. I consider this payment a form of CHARITY. A SICK person is getting help. NOT ME. Maybe it will be there for me someday, maybe not. It is a gamble, imo.
when YOU pay in and SOMEBODY ELSE gets paid.
To protect yourself, save money in the BANK, where you can get it when u need it.
I pay $122/mo-blue cross, about the lowest price i can find. I consider this payment a form of CHARITY. A SICK person is getting help. NOT ME. Maybe it will be there for me someday, maybe not. It is a gamble, imo.
denronmoped said,
I guess that's a hypothetical question because as I look around I see that medical reasearch is conducted by quite a few Sate run universities not to mention in countries that have socialized medicine. I don't know of ANY business (or organization) that can survive with out controlling its costs.
Let me turn that conundrum around. How can we get proper medical care when the sole goal of a doctor/hospital is to get more repeat business at a lower incurred cost in order to maximize profits? How many more tests will be ordered, how many more procedures will be tried (needed or not), how many more people will be stuffed into hospital room, how many more people will be turned away because the risk of non-payment is too high, how many more un-needed prescriptions will be filled?
denronmoped said,
I think it's called compassion. But if that doesn't convince you then look at the military or in international aide groups. There, doctors go into some of the WORST places in the world under extreme conditions for comparativly little pay. It has been my experience with doctors that they are not in it to get rich - to get VERY comfortable, sure. And that's fine with me.
If you want a for-profit-doctor you are welcome to him/her. No one wants to take that away from you.
But lets be clear here, I'm talking about competition driving down costs, not outright price controlls (in all cases). IMO all industries run better when there is a robust cempetitive environment. I'm sure we can agree on that point. Maybe we differ on how to acheive this.
Matt Gruber wrote
Allow me to point out to you that your deposits are FDIC insured. That's why you can confidently save your money there. Also, the fractional banking system is the BIGGEST Ponzi scheme there is. When you deposit your money it is gone, baby, gone. Where do you think much of the money for loans comes from? It comes from deposits (in part). And the only reason you KNOW that you are able to withdraw it is precisley because the fedral government regulates the banks and insures your deposit.
But I do think that we aught to look at medical savings accounts. I don't agree with my liberal friends who seem to be against them for a reason I don't understand.
I guess that's a hypothetical question because as I look around I see that medical reasearch is conducted by quite a few Sate run universities not to mention in countries that have socialized medicine. I don't know of ANY business (or organization) that can survive with out controlling its costs.
Let me turn that conundrum around. How can we get proper medical care when the sole goal of a doctor/hospital is to get more repeat business at a lower incurred cost in order to maximize profits? How many more tests will be ordered, how many more procedures will be tried (needed or not), how many more people will be stuffed into hospital room, how many more people will be turned away because the risk of non-payment is too high, how many more un-needed prescriptions will be filled?
denronmoped said,
I think it's called compassion. But if that doesn't convince you then look at the military or in international aide groups. There, doctors go into some of the WORST places in the world under extreme conditions for comparativly little pay. It has been my experience with doctors that they are not in it to get rich - to get VERY comfortable, sure. And that's fine with me.
If you want a for-profit-doctor you are welcome to him/her. No one wants to take that away from you.
But lets be clear here, I'm talking about competition driving down costs, not outright price controlls (in all cases). IMO all industries run better when there is a robust cempetitive environment. I'm sure we can agree on that point. Maybe we differ on how to acheive this.
Matt Gruber wrote
Allow me to point out to you that your deposits are FDIC insured. That's why you can confidently save your money there. Also, the fractional banking system is the BIGGEST Ponzi scheme there is. When you deposit your money it is gone, baby, gone. Where do you think much of the money for loans comes from? It comes from deposits (in part). And the only reason you KNOW that you are able to withdraw it is precisley because the fedral government regulates the banks and insures your deposit.
But I do think that we aught to look at medical savings accounts. I don't agree with my liberal friends who seem to be against them for a reason I don't understand.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
if u don't trust the banking system, your solution is to give $$$ to an insurance company?
Well, good luck.
Others buy gold, silver, real estate, Muni-bonds, TIPS, I bonds, etc.
You give it to an ins. co? Surely U jest.
Since no one has ever lost a penny of insured deposts, and the fed can monitize debt(print money) i have complete confidence in insured deposits.
Well, good luck.
Others buy gold, silver, real estate, Muni-bonds, TIPS, I bonds, etc.
You give it to an ins. co? Surely U jest.
Since no one has ever lost a penny of insured deposts, and the fed can monitize debt(print money) i have complete confidence in insured deposits.
deronmoped
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mclovin said:
Let me answer the first part, every hear of the US government? Control cost we, we print the money! Anyways you really do not address what I was getting at, being cheap, trying to control cost. You point out that research is going on in state run universities, that is us through our government spending money on research, get it, spending money, not being cheap. The whole premise of this health care proposal is to cut back, somehow save money, cut our 16% back to match other countries 11% spending, somehow insure forty million more people while cutting back, saving us money.
Now how in heavens name are we going to insure forty million more people, cut our rate of spending by like a third and give every person out there what they want? We are trying to follow other countries models are we not, they can cover everyone and do everything everyone wants while spending way less then us. Something has to give, the government can not just create wealth through more printing and spending.
It just does not add up. Take health care spending, cut it by one third, insure forty million more and then have enough left over to cover new drugs, new procedures, new cures... that get invented year in and year out.
Deron.
deronmoped
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deronmoped said:
The answer to your second question is quite easy.
You or anyone else for that matter can get proper care thought their own self-interest. No government agency or bureaucrat could give a rats ass about you or how healthy you are going to live. Face it, no one cares about you except immediate family and friends, let alone some paper pusher. Go out and shop for the best insurance, that lets you shop for the best doctor before it gets decided for you by the government. I have experienced the nightmare of government provided dental care and it's some fresh student out of dental college, your Postal Dental insurance plan in action. After getting butchered, I immediately went back with my regular private dentist, which I have been with for forty years.
Believe me when I tell you, when it comes to your health care, you want to be proactive and take control over your health care. People make decisions all day long that effect every aspect of their lives, time they get involved in finding a good doctor, hospital, clinic, insurance company... Peoples health care is more important then TV time. Everyone should take a hour or two a week out of TV time and put it towards getting involved with their health care.
That's a scary thought, people actually doing something that involves more then just bending their arm at the elbow to get that next potato chip into their mouth.
Deron.
deronmoped
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mclovin said:
Dam, what world were you raised in?
How much work do you volunteer. How far does your compassion go, get real, it's as expensive as hell to become a doctor and to stay educated at the top of your expertise. Go to school for ten years and then spend your life working in some third world country, how do you pay back all the education cost, earn a living, have a family...
Just like a liberal, wants to tell other people how they should live their lives. "Oh, he's a doctor, he's compassionate, he's not in it for the money".
Deron.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
change the patent rules! I'll throw out a half baked idea:
NO PATENT for any new drug/process unless it LOWERS cost.
Patent expires if a LOWER cost drug comes out.
.
No more 17 year patents! More like 3 years. to get generics out faster
. i know the idea needs work, but there also must be many other ways to reward cost control.
NO PATENT for any new drug/process unless it LOWERS cost.
Patent expires if a LOWER cost drug comes out.
.
No more 17 year patents! More like 3 years. to get generics out faster
. i know the idea needs work, but there also must be many other ways to reward cost control.
deronmoped
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So the "land of the free" is now becoming the "land of the slaves to government"!
The 0 said it today in his speech, you will be forced to buy what we are selling. Do not care to have health insurance? Guess what, you will be fined and thrown in jail if you do not pay the piper.
There is no choice involved, the Health Care Nazi's are going to break your door down and drag you away. "Not paid your health care taxes lately, you need to spend some time in the cooler to get your thinking right".
There is a bunch of screwed up people out there that are in favor of forcing their communist ideas on others.
Deron.
The 0 said it today in his speech, you will be forced to buy what we are selling. Do not care to have health insurance? Guess what, you will be fined and thrown in jail if you do not pay the piper.
There is no choice involved, the Health Care Nazi's are going to break your door down and drag you away. "Not paid your health care taxes lately, you need to spend some time in the cooler to get your thinking right".
There is a bunch of screwed up people out there that are in favor of forcing their communist ideas on others.
Deron.
Communist? I'm not sure, but he's somewhere on the lower left quandrant.
View attachment political_circle_small.jpg
View attachment political_circle_small.jpg
Moral Health Care vs. “Universal Health Careâ€Â
^Lots of hard facts in this article about how government involvement drives cost up and why removing it is the solution.
^Lots of hard facts in this article about how government involvement drives cost up and why removing it is the solution.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
can't wait to see how the homeless & unemployed & underemployed will pay the penalty for not having the mandated insurance.