Dillenger electric screwed me over, don't buy from them.

[blackjackel]

Australian consumer law states the product must be. "Fit for intended use" ... And if it's not , then the customer is entitled to either a replacement, or refund.
But, get real, it's a cheap Chinese made bike rack, not an expensive hand made suit, !....what do you expect ?
A little thought and reading would have forewarned you this would not last, so part of the fault is yours for even buying it.!
Eventually you will have to get over this, for your sake, do it sooner rather than later

I'm sectioning off this post and future posts that it's easier for others to read and respond to.

1- Australian consumer law does not apply, consumer law of the country where the Sale occurred is what applies.

2- I realize it's a cheap chinese made bike rack, I would have expected this kind of treatment had I bought it from a Chinese vendor; However, this is somewhat well-known western company whom I paid much more than I would have paid a Chinese vendor, therefore I expected for the warranty that I paid for to apply.

3- I did not ever expect to get a cheap Chinese part as part of this rack, their wording made me believe that their product is the best on the market.

4- Where is it stated anywhere that their bike rack is a cheap Chinese part? Where could I have obtained this information which would have prevented me from making the purchase?

5- I am over this, I am not making any demands or anything. What I'm doing now is for the knowledge of the consumer (to put up my experience so others can make their mind about Dillinger), my entertainment, amusement as well as for the entertainment and amusement of others, my learning needs in regarding to hosting and making a website, learning about the Law and how it applies, learning about people's psychology and how they respond to things like this...etc. It's simply a means for me to spend my free time.

 

[blackjackel]

Blackjackel, I understand your anger. You need to move on. Think of it as a learning experience. (Geez that's what my teachers used to tell me) I've spent a ton of money on learning experience. Eventually you'll have the ebike you want. You'll will have learned how to put together every nut and bolt of the bike.

Thanks for those words man, but I'm actually having fun doing all of this I have already moved on, a lot of people assume my blood is boiling over all of this but it's not I'm actually quite happy with my ebike now that I've fixed the rack myself... it's many times more sturdy than it was before

What I'm doing now is for the knowledge of the consumer (to put up my experience so others can make their mind about Dillinger), my entertainment, amusement as well as for the entertainment and amusement of others, my learning needs in regarding to hosting and making a website, learning about the Law and how it applies, learning about people's psychology and how they respond to things like this...etc.

It's simply a means for me to spend my free time Even if dillenger decides to take me to court (which I cannot fathom what grounds they have to do so), that would be a learning experience too, I've never been to court with a corporation that wasn't inside the United States... so I get to learn what that's like... I get to hire my own lawyer and fight for what I believe to be right, I get to countersue, these are all learning experiences for me.

Blackjackel, it sounds like you had a really bad experience with this company. You have definitely kicked up a lot of dust over this.

Let's try to get back to the original goal of providing electric power to your bike so that you can enjoy riding. I can't imagine that you would enjoy your bike with Dillenger's parts on it.

Please consider taking off all of their parts and returning them back to their American warehouse for a refund. You have to pay the shipping and that was never in the plan, I know, but after getting the refund and getting a fresh start you can ride your bike and fully enjoy the experience.

Imagine taking the refund and building another motor/controller/battery system that doesn't have the emotional baggage that you have with Dillenger.

My first commuter bike was not a success. I lost a fair amount of time and money on it. I sold it and I am trying again. It is pretty frustrating, but I am keeping the faith and staying positive.

I actually am enjoying the e-bike I don't know why everyone thinks I have emotional baggage over this anymore... When I was livid was when they offered to sell me the part for $50 and when they ignored me for two weeks but the anger quickly went away when I decided to put up my website I love my ebike now that I've repaired the rack itself

I actually don't have a problem with their motor or their controller... the issue I had was with the rack, and now that I've repaired that myself I don't have an issue with it. It runs fast, it lasts for around 15 miles (their claim was 37miles or something, but I recognize that this is probably under ideal conditions like not ever breaking)... so I don't really have a complaint about the ebike, my only complaint was with their promises and their customer service, but now that I've washed my hands of them I really have nothing to complain about for myself My goals are to get them to make their own decision to not screw over their customers in the future either by refusing warranty or by sending them cheap Chinese crap with bad weld design.

Thanks for staying positive and not attacking me like some other posters on here!

 

[slacker]

If you thought it wasn't made in china just from what you read on their website you sir are a moron as almost everything these day's come's from china. You have reaffirmed why i believe in abortion as you are a poster child for why some people should not have kid's as if you were my child i would have kicked your ass a long time ago for being so stupid over something so trivial. A bike rack and 50$ is a complete waste of most peoples time and we are smart enough to do our own research without you warning us of your drama queen antics. say goodnight nancy.

 

[blackjackel]

If you thought it wasn't made in china just from what you read on their website you sir are a moron as almost everything these day's come's from china. You have reaffirmed why i believe in abortion as you are a poster child for why some people should not have kid's as if you were my child i would have kicked your ass a long time ago for being so stupid over something so trivial. A bike rack and 50$ is a complete waste of most peoples time and we are smart enough to do our own research without you warning us of your drama queen antics. say goodnight nancy.

I never claimed that I thought the part wasn't coming from China. I know damn well most everything comes from China.

Notice that every time I used the word China or Chinese I put the word "cheap" in front of it. its not WHERE the parts come from that bothered me, it's the QUALITY of the parts that was the issue.

Some really nice and high quality things are made in China like iPhones...

I don't believe any of this is a waste of my time as long as I enjoy doing it. You are welcome to believe it's a waste of your time had you done it but for you to tell me that my opinion is wrong about what I choose to do with my own time is just silly.

 

[tomjasz]

Oi!

 

[Sunder]

1- Australian consumer law does not apply, consumer law of the country where the Sale occurred is what applies.

I'll humor you for a second. Let's say you get a consumer tribunal ruling that says you are owed a repair, because you've rejected their refund.

Exactly how are you going to enforce that ruling? Is Team American: World Police going to invade Australia?

Maybe they'll arrest the employees of the related American warehousing company. Wait. What? No, the order is against the Australian company.

Yeah - exactly. Any ruling in your favour is unenforceable, which is why pretty much every jurisdiction in the world says that consumer laws are applicable from the vendor's country. It's the only practical way.

Case in point:

If you buy online from an overseas trader, Australian Consumer Law may not apply and may only offer you limited protection. This could make it difficult for you to benefit from a warranty or to get a refund, replacement or repair if the goods you receive are defective.
Before purchasing from overseas you should also satisfy yourself that repair facilities and spare parts are reasonably available in Australia.

If you looked hard enough in your state, I'm sure they'll say pretty much exactly the same thing.

I don't know much about US laws. But I am familiar enough with Western legal systems to know that you have some misconceptions about how the legal system works and these could get you into serious, serious trouble - up to jail time. As someone has on their signature here "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". You seem to know enough that you might get yourself into a whole lot of trouble.

 

[slacker]

it's the QUALITY of the parts that was the issue. they came from china which has child labor what did you expect ? I am sorry but as i have worked in educating young children for the last 30 years you really do not have a clue and dillenger should be paying you to advertise their product. You need to look in the mirror and wash the whiny bitch off your face. good day and i hope you find your way in oz,dorothy.

 

[Dillenger_Australia]

We apologize to blackjackel for the poor service received regarding the replacement of the rear rack in the 1,000W 10Ah kit. The situation should have been dealt with in a more efficient manner.

We concede that the rear rack which is an adaptation of a common bicycle rear rack sold under many different brand names is potentially insufficient in some scenarios or applications.

Shortly we will begin drafting a replacement 'heavy duty' rear rack which will be available in 2015 as an optional upgrade. We have a few ideas for something that will be made by Dillenger (not an existing product sold overseas) and we will be asking for comments on a prototype when it is complete.

The new heavy duty rear rack will be made available free of charge to anyone who has purchased this kit and has experienced the same failure as mentioned in this thread, (for kits purchased prior to the online availability of the new heavy duty rack).

 

[spinningmagnets]

Thank you for publicly recognizing that an accessory that you sold might not be adequately strong enough for some applications. Also, thanks for being diplomatic in your reply, and for publicly stating you will make a stronger accessory available to previous customers. I think that doing so, is all that any customer can reasonably ask...

 

[blackjackel]

1- Australian consumer law does not apply, consumer law of the country where the Sale occurred is what applies.

I'll humor you for a second. Let's say you get a consumer tribunal ruling that says you are owed a repair, because you've rejected their refund.

Exactly how are you going to enforce that ruling? Is Team American: World Police going to invade Australia?

Maybe they'll arrest the employees of the related American warehousing company. Wait. What? No, the order is against the Australian company.

Yeah - exactly. Any ruling in your favour is unenforceable, which is why pretty much every jurisdiction in the world says that consumer laws are applicable from the vendor's country. It's the only practical way.

Case in point:

If you buy online from an overseas trader, Australian Consumer Law may not apply and may only offer you limited protection. This could make it difficult for you to benefit from a warranty or to get a refund, replacement or repair if the goods you receive are defective.
Before purchasing from overseas you should also satisfy yourself that repair facilities and spare parts are reasonably available in Australia.

If you looked hard enough in your state, I'm sure they'll say pretty much exactly the same thing.

I don't know much about US laws. But I am familiar enough with Western legal systems to know that you have some misconceptions about how the legal system works and these could get you into serious, serious trouble - up to jail time. As someone has on their signature here "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". You seem to know enough that you might get yourself into a whole lot of trouble.

I'll humor you for a second too: I'm not quite sure that you've read the posts I've been putting up, as I said, I am not making any demands of Dillenger, I'm no longer requesting a refund... I abandoned the struggle for a refund before I even created my website or posted on the forum so even if Dillenger has the capability to force a refund, I doubt they have the capability to do so even if it's not asked of them. They can't just force a refund outright if the consumer does not want one.... unless that's literally what the law says in Australia, which would be quite a ridiculous law.

I'm not afraid of the legal system for three reasons:

1- I've been to court exactly twice over incidents that were very similar to this one, one of the incidents being with a company far larger than this one. I do admit that this time it involves international law, which I am not nearly as familiar with as I am with US law and particularly California state law... but I do know enough to know that I did not do anything illegal and that I have enough financial resources to hire a good enough lawyer to not only reaffirm that fact but also countersue. The past two times I had my lawyer fees paid and was compensated for my time, effort, and grief. I have the experience, knowledge, and perpetration to do this. last time I didn't have any of those things and I still succeeded. If I wasn't so confident I wouldn't be updating this post so much because as you said, everything I say here is admissible in court. I just have to make sure I don't ever break the law and I'm set.

2- If Dillenger decides to get litigious they will be harming themselves far far far more than my website could ever harm them. I had an ex girlfriend who lived in Australia and I once visited Melbourne for 10 weeks, I've visited Austrialia a few times in my life. I've made a lot of friends there and I've made them aware of my situation. If dillenger gets litigious it won't just be the US media that hears about this (which admittedly might not be very interested), but the situation will be released to Australian media as well... that's aside from the stories that will be released on the web... Dillenger does not want a google search of their name to reveal several articles about how they sued a consumer for fighting against their warranty claims, that would kill their business much faster than a single website would.

3- It would probably be prohibitively expensive, proportionally, for them to get litigious. It would cost them on the order of 10x more to bring the case against me than it would cost me to defend it.

 

[blackjackel]

We apologize to blackjackel for the poor service received regarding the replacement of the rear rack in the 1,000W 10Ah kit. The situation should have been dealt with in a more efficient manner.

We concede that the rear rack which is an adaptation of a common bicycle rear rack sold under many different brand names is potentially insufficient in some scenarios or applications.

Shortly we will begin drafting a replacement 'heavy duty' rear rack which will be available in 2015 as an optional upgrade. We have a few ideas for something that will be made by Dillenger (not an existing product sold overseas) and we will be asking for comments on a prototype when it is complete.

The new heavy duty rear rack will be made available free of charge to anyone who has purchased this kit and has experienced the same failure as mentioned in this thread, (for kits purchased prior to the online availability of the new heavy duty rack).

I'm not quite sure if your answer is sufficient as it leaves out a lot of crucial details. I have a few questions:

1- What about for customers who's racks fail past their warranty? Will you still replace it with the heavy-duty version for them for free as well? Or will it only be replaced for customers under the warranty?

I wouldn't purchase the optional upgrade if I had no prior knowledge of this issue because I would have believed the standard rack to be sufficient for use on city roads like I've been using it. I believe that even if you warn consumers that the rack provided with your kit may break under certain situations, people like me might assume that their application would be good enough for the standard rack.... People will assume "certain situations" to be things like off roading, not paved city roads.

2-What about for those (in the future) who don't purchase the upgrade kit but experience a failure of the rack? Will they be told that they should have purchased the optional rack and that because they didn't you can't help them? Will you still send them a (standard) replacement rear rack under warranty? What about if it breaks a 2nd time, will you tell them what you told me and offer to sell them another piece for $50?

3- What about your customers that are caught in the middle? Those people who's racks are currently broken and can't repair it themselves like I did, and are waiting for the heavy duty version? Will you send them replacements until your heavy duty racks are shipping? I believe you can temporarily reinforce your current racks with epoxy from the factory similarly to what I did until you get the situation sorted out.

4- Will you advertise this change in policy at all? Will you only tell it to those that had their racks broken? If you'll only tell it for those that had their racks broken, how will we know that you're keeping to your word? If you are going to advertise this change in policy, how will you do it?

I feel the way you phrased your answer, it is sufficient for your past customers as it allows anyone who had experienced a failure to (hopefully) receive a replacement that won't soon break on them, but is insufficient for future customers as I believe it is only a matter of time before the rack (as it is in it's current state) will fail for your customers... unless they aren't using your product very often or are using it under optimal situations like freshly paved roads without bumps or cracks. It also does not address those caught in the middle and those who'se warranty has expired.

The current rack may be sufficient for some of your customers who have purchased different kits with possibly smaller and much lighter batteries but it is most definitely NOT sufficient for your 10ah battery kit. Maybe this is why you believe it to be sufficient for some of your customers? Because it works for other kits and does not fail as often (smaller lighter batteries). As you said yourselves, the rack is an adaptation of a regular bicycle rack, which is not designed to hold a 10pound load. I don't believe that kit should be provided at all to any customer that purchases a battery the same size as the one I purchased (10ah kit). Of course, you are entitled to sell whatever product you wish, even if it were inferior, but doing so would be a disservice to your customer. As I said, I ride my bike around the streets of Los Angeles, I don't do anything crazy with it, I've never crashed it, and the rack has failed twice for me in under 2 months... I can't fathom how you'd sell that same rack to your other customers and offer them an option to upgrade prior to purchase.

 

[Hayds13]

Hi Endless-Spherers! My first post

I bought the same 1000w kit as blackjackel from Dillenger last year. It seemed like a good kit for me because I didn’t know much about assembling an eBike – and the kit contained everything I should need.

When the kits arrived, I installed it and was riding the same afternoon. Big grin!

The pannier rack was very high on my mountain bike and made it top heavy. It rattled heaps when going over bumps. Loud enough to scare pedestrians. haha. This rattle was caused by the small gap between the battery and the sliding plate. Rather then persist with the Dillenger pannier rack, I bought a new one from Giant and mounted the battery and plate. Cables ties and bungee cords helped with the rattle, but not an ideal solution.

That lasted about two weeks before the Giant rack broke at the welds. Totally my fault. I bought the rack and made the attachment points. But overall, I think the battery is very heavy to be attached to the center plate of most “standard” pannier racks. My solution has been to custom mount the battery in the frame triangle.

Looking at my still new pannier rack from Dillenger, I think it would not last much longer then the one I bought from Giant. So yes, I would tend to agree that is rack is the weakest link in the kit.

Overall I’m very happy with the Dillenger kit and I would buy from them again.

 

[Sunder]

I'll humor you for a second too:

I don't think that means what you think it means.

They can't just force a refund outright if the consumer does not want one.... unless that's literally what the law says in Australia, which would be quite a ridiculous law.

They can, and it's quite a reasonable law - the US has one similar. Basically they offer a refund, if you formally refuse then your warranty is void.

It's reasonable, because it prevents unreasonable customers from holding reasonable vendors to ransom. One example cited on the NSW Consumer Affairs website, was a vendor sold a blender to a cafe believing it to be industrial quality. But it kept breaking every 2 weeks. After a number of replacements, the vendor is permitted to refund the cafe rather than continue to keep replacing it, as the item is clearly not fit for the advertised purpose. If the cafe refuses the refund, they are voluntarily waiving their rights.

Anyway - it seems we are starting to cover old ground again, so I'm probably not going to contribute much more to this thread, except to say this. I really hope you keep on making a big deal about this issue, because as you can see above, you're attracting people to register to stand by Dillenger. You couldn't pay for a better endorsement to get people to buy your products.

 

[Dillenger_Australia]

I'm not quite sure if your answer is sufficient as it leaves out a lot of crucial details. I have a few questions:

1- What about for customers who's racks fail past their warranty? Will you still replace it with the heavy-duty version for them for free as well? Or will it only be replaced for customers under the warranty?

Yes, replacement for anyone regardless of warranty dates.

I wouldn't purchase the optional upgrade if I had no prior knowledge of this issue because I would have believed the standard rack to be sufficient for use on city roads like I've been using it. I believe that even if you warn consumers that the rack provided with your kit may break under certain situations, people like me might assume that their application would be good enough for the standard rack.... People will assume "certain situations" to be things like off roading, not paved city roads.

There are over 400 of these kits in service right now. There have been 3 known failures of this rear rack and all 3 have been mentioned in this thread. The chap in the UK never contacted us about the rack failure.

With this number of kits in service and only 3 known failures for was is a 'off-the-shelf' off-road kit I'm not looking at announcing a recall right now. I'm looking at providing an option.

2-What about for those (in the future) who don't purchase the upgrade kit but experience a failure of the rack? Will they be told that they should have purchased the optional rack and that because they didn't you can't help them? Will you still send them a (standard) replacement rear rack under warranty? What about if it breaks a 2nd time, will you tell them what you told me and offer to sell them another piece for $50?

This will depend on how the new rack is received by the market. If it is successful and we can produce it for only a small increase in overall costs then we may decide to offer the 1,000W rear rack kits only with this option. If someone breaks a part and we believe it to be a manufacturing fault or there is even a remote possibility that it is a part failure, we would give anyone the benefit of the doubt.

If someone consecutively breaks the same component over and over that is known to have an extremely low failure rate then we have to ask ourselves, why is this happening, and how can it be solved without sending someone a replacement part once a month for eternity.

That's where this is right now. We've offered you a refund, we've offered you a replacement heavy duty rack when available.

3- What about your customers that are caught in the middle? Those people who's racks are currently broken and can't repair it themselves like I did, and are waiting for the heavy duty version? Will you send them replacements until your heavy duty racks are shipping? I believe you can temporarily reinforce your current racks with epoxy from the factory similarly to what I did until you get the situation sorted out.

3- What about your customers that are caught in the middle?

I'm talking to 1 of only 2 cases we've been made aware of right now. If anyone else has experienced this issue then the same offer extends to them. Right now, and in the future.

4- Will you advertise this change in policy at all? Will you only tell it to those that had their racks broken? If you'll only tell it for those that had their racks broken, how will we know that you're keeping to your word? If you are going to advertise this change in policy, how will you do it?

There is no change in policy. The warranty is the same and if someone has a problem we take it case by case. We're not hiding behind consumer guarantees in order to do the bare minimum, we're more interested in fixing people problems so that they're out and riding asap and not down for too long, within reason.

Will you only tell it to those that had their racks broken?

With respect, there is a 'runaway' misconception that this is a common problem. Again, if anyone has had a failure of the rack then the same offer is open to them.

I feel the way you phrased your answer, it is sufficient for your past customers as it allows anyone who had experienced a failure to (hopefully) receive a replacement that won't soon break on them, but is insufficient for future customers as I believe it is only a matter of time before the rack (as it is in it's current state) will fail for your customers... unless they aren't using your product very often or are using it under optimal situations like freshly paved roads without bumps or cracks. It also does not address those caught in the middle and those who'se warranty has expired.

The current rack may be sufficient for some of your customers who have purchased different kits with possibly smaller and much lighter batteries but it is most definitely NOT sufficient for your 10ah battery kit. Maybe this is why you believe it to be sufficient for some of your customers? Because it works for other kits and does not fail as often (smaller lighter batteries). As you said yourselves, the rack is an adaptation of a regular bicycle rack, which is not designed to hold a 10pound load. I don't believe that kit should be provided at all to any customer that purchases a battery the same size as the one I purchased (10ah kit). Of course, you are entitled to sell whatever product you wish, even if it were inferior, but doing so would be a disservice to your customer. As I said, I ride my bike around the streets of Los Angeles, I don't do anything crazy with it, I've never crashed it, and the rack has failed twice for me in under 2 months... I can't fathom how you'd sell that same rack to your other customers and offer them an option to upgrade prior to purchase.

As you said yourselves, the rack is an adaptation of a regular bicycle rack, which is not designed to hold a 10pound load. I don't believe that kit should be provided at all to any customer that purchases a battery the same size as the one I purchased (10ah kit)

This rack is only for the 10Ah battery, there are no other smaller batteries it is offered with. If you checkout this photo of the exact rack, it says "20lbs / 9kg weight limit". The 10Ah battery weighs around 5kg.

http://dillenger.com.au/es/imgs/esracklabel.jpg

Regarding all the discussion of litigation, we have never even remotely insinuated that we intend to go after anyone for brand dilution, slander or trademark infringement. It's not in our interest and we're not interested in proverbial knife fights.

Regarding the comments on the use of our trademarks in the URL of the site setup to slander us, the idea of a trademark, and how a 'basic mark' works is not subjective or in dispute. It just is what it is. The word/text 'DILLENGER' is our trademark.

I've recognized that the rear rack supplied could be improved and I'm taking steps to investigate a better option that will also benefit our other kits (48V 20Ah+).

I've recognized that you were treated unfairly and you should have been offered a refund earlier in the picture.

I've apologized for the poor service you have experiences and offered you either a full refund or the upgrade to our heavy duty rear rack when available.

Any further complaints and slander from this point are for your amusement only.

 

[Ohbse]

Bravo Dillenger. A fantastic response. While I personally won't be purchasing any off the shelf kits, I get asked about them on an almost daily basis. I hadn't previously had a good answer for an affordable solution with service you can stand by, but now I do. No doubt you will get several more customers sent your way just from myself based on your conduct in this ridiculous thread and I suspect many more from the wider readership.

What a GC.

 

[tomjasz]

Point, set, match. Thank you Dillinger!

 

[Punx0r]

To balance out my previous criticism I think the solution now offered by Dillenger is reasonable and equitable.

 

[blackjackel]

I'm not quite sure if your answer is sufficient as it leaves out a lot of crucial details. I have a few questions:

1- What about for customers who's racks fail past their warranty? Will you still replace it with the heavy-duty version for them for free as well? Or will it only be replaced for customers under the warranty?

Yes, replacement for anyone regardless of warranty dates.

this is optimal, thank you.

I wouldn't purchase the optional upgrade if I had no prior knowledge of this issue because I would have believed the standard rack to be sufficient for use on city roads like I've been using it. I believe that even if you warn consumers that the rack provided with your kit may break under certain situations, people like me might assume that their application would be good enough for the standard rack.... People will assume "certain situations" to be things like off roading, not paved city roads.

There are over 400 of these kits in service right now. There have been 3 known failures of this rear rack and all 3 have been mentioned in this thread. The chap in the UK never contacted us about the rack failure.

With this number of kits in service and only 3 known failures for was is a 'off-the-shelf' off-road kit I'm not looking at announcing a recall right now. I'm looking at providing an option.

You said it yourself, the chap in the UK did not contact you about the rack failure, and I suspect many more haven't contacted you for the rack failure for several reasons:

1- If the failure happened outside of the warranty, none of your customers would think to contact you (I myself wouldn't contact you about a failure outside of warranty). This is very important though as I'm sure you want your kits to last 3 years at the very least... if not 5 years... and a kit breaking just over 1 year is a relevant problem.

2- Some may figure it's a cheap part and not worth contacting you over, instead opting to purchase a replacement somewhere else (as the UK chap chose to do).

3- Some customers may not use the kit as often as others do, opting to leave the kit/bike in the garage and only using it occasionally, like once a month for example. My kit broke the second time over a period of 17 days, when I was using it nearly every day, I rode it for 200 miles.... Lets assume I used it 15 times before I broke for 200 miles, that means if I only rode my bike once a month or 16 or less miles per month I wouldn't have experienced the failure till after the warranty expired. See #1

4- Some customers may have opted to use their own equipment (like the UK chap), therefore never experiencing the breakage of your rack.

5- I admit, this is my weakest point but some people may live in areas (like scandanavian countries) where roads are specifically tailored to bicycles, meaning they are kept freshly paved, flat, without any bumps or cracks, so that the vibration does not cause their rack to break as fast as it would someone living in an area of less than optimal roads.

So far you have me, the UK chap, and I believe you said 3, so you must know of one other person who'se rack broke. The friend of mine that helped me put your kit together also told me about a problem with a rack that he bought from you (admittedly it wasn't for this same kit, it was for a completely different kit with a completely different battery)... but he told me that he bought his own replacement instead of contacting you, if you like I can give you his phone number or ask him to contact you directly if you'd like to hear it from him.... he still rides one of your kits (which is different still from the one where the rack broke) today and I don't believe he's experienced a rack failure on his current kit (it's the "Water bottle" mount type). So you have (presumably) two failures that were reported, and 2 unreported failures ... for the reasons listed above, I believe the problem to be much worse than you deem it.

I doubt that the only failures that have ever happened were all mentioned in this thread. The likelihood of that is really low.

2-What about for those (in the future) who don't purchase the upgrade kit but experience a failure of the rack? Will they be told that they should have purchased the optional rack and that because they didn't you can't help them? Will you still send them a (standard) replacement rear rack under warranty? What about if it breaks a 2nd time, will you tell them what you told me and offer to sell them another piece for $50?

This will depend on how the new rack is received by the market. If it is successful and we can produce it for only a small increase in overall costs then we may decide to offer the 1,000W rear rack kits only with this option. If someone breaks a part and we believe it to be a manufacturing fault or there is even a remote possibility that it is a part failure, we would give anyone the benefit of the doubt.

If someone consecutively breaks the same component over and over that is known to have an extremely low failure rate then we have to ask ourselves, why is this happening, and how can it be solved without sending someone a replacement part once a month for eternity.

That's where this is right now. We've offered you a refund, we've offered you a replacement heavy duty rack when available.

This is a reasonable action to take, I agree, however for the reasons provided before I believe the problem may be larger than you think.

When the issue happened to me the first time, you agreed to modify the rack to fix a problem with it (the battery rattle), which is what caused the rack to fail in under 2 days. You sent me a modified version with felt pads that covered the space in between the rack and the battery... It worked! I was able to use the kit for 17 days before it failed again; However, the second time it broke you refused to take into consideration that it may have been a deficiency in design or manufacture, you didn't give me the benefit of the doubt even though I provided you with proof of proper kit installation along with detailed images as to where the rack faied, how it failed, and even why I suspected that it failed, along with possible quick fix solutions ( extend 1 weld and add two more welds, which is what I did to repair my rack). You admitted that the rack was simply a regular bike rack modified to fit your 10lb battery, meaning that it wasn't designed for this purpose in the first place.

I don't expect you to continue sending out replacement parts for eternity, I expect you to use the information I provided you that I mentioned in the previous paragraph to make changes and solve the issue. You did it the first time (felt pads under battery, and it helped) but refused to revisit the issue a 2nd time.

I believe your offer of a replacement heavy duty rack is more than acceptable, and in fact I believe you will benefit from this in the long-term as a company. Every time your rack breaks (even if the customer does not tell you), it tarnishes your name in that customer's eyes and they are less likely to recommend your kit to others. I recommended you guys like crazy to all of my friends like crazy until your rack broke the 2nd time.

3- What about your customers that are caught in the middle? Those people who's racks are currently broken and can't repair it themselves like I did, and are waiting for the heavy duty version? Will you send them replacements until your heavy duty racks are shipping? I believe you can temporarily reinforce your current racks with epoxy from the factory similarly to what I did until you get the situation sorted out.

I'm talking to 1 of only 2 cases we've been made aware of right now. If anyone else has experienced this issue then the same offer extends to them. Right now, and in the future.

Great, an optimal decision. Again, thank you.

4- Will you advertise this change in policy at all? Will you only tell it to those that had their racks broken? If you'll only tell it for those that had their racks broken, how will we know that you're keeping to your word? If you are going to advertise this change in policy, how will you do it?

There is no change in policy. The warranty is the same and if someone has a problem we take it case by case. We're not hiding behind consumer guarantees in order to do the bare minimum, we're more interested in fixing people problems so that they're out and riding asap and not down for too long, within reason.

But clearly there has been a change... before you were not offering the heavy duty rack option to those that had their racks break, and now you are. You are saying that you will only tell those that report their racks breaking about this option? For the 5 reasons I mentioned before, there may be many people out there not reporting the problem with their racks. I'm not suggesting that you email everyone that has ever purchased the rack to offer a heavy duty replacement, as I'm sure there will be people out there who will try to take advantage of this situation to get a free rack... I must admit I'm not sure what would be the best way to attempt to get feedback from the customers that may not be contacting you regarding their issues. I would say that you should reach out to those customers to ask if they've had issues with their racks via email or something but perhaps this is excessive, I'm not sure.

Will you only tell it to those that had their racks broken?

With respect, there is a 'runaway' misconception that this is a common problem. Again, if anyone has had a failure of the rack then the same offer is open to them.

See the 5 aforementioned reasons. I believe the misconception is that it's not a problem.

But I will go out of my way to help you guys, I will modify my front page with a link that would allow anyone that has had any rack issues to contact me, and I will forward their correspondence to you... maybe if enough people that haven't reported before report, the situation might change.

I do concede that I may be completely and utterly wrong about this, but based on the design and manufacture of the rack and the comments mentioned on the pictures on my website, along with my personal experience with the rack, I can't fathom how it's not a huge problem for others.

I feel the way you phrased your answer, it is sufficient for your past customers as it allows anyone who had experienced a failure to (hopefully) receive a replacement that won't soon break on them, but is insufficient for future customers as I believe it is only a matter of time before the rack (as it is in it's current state) will fail for your customers... unless they aren't using your product very often or are using it under optimal situations like freshly paved roads without bumps or cracks. It also does not address those caught in the middle and those who'se warranty has expired.

The current rack may be sufficient for some of your customers who have purchased different kits with possibly smaller and much lighter batteries but it is most definitely NOT sufficient for your 10ah battery kit. Maybe this is why you believe it to be sufficient for some of your customers? Because it works for other kits and does not fail as often (smaller lighter batteries). As you said yourselves, the rack is an adaptation of a regular bicycle rack, which is not designed to hold a 10pound load. I don't believe that kit should be provided at all to any customer that purchases a battery the same size as the one I purchased (10ah kit). Of course, you are entitled to sell whatever product you wish, even if it were inferior, but doing so would be a disservice to your customer. As I said, I ride my bike around the streets of Los Angeles, I don't do anything crazy with it, I've never crashed it, and the rack has failed twice for me in under 2 months... I can't fathom how you'd sell that same rack to your other customers and offer them an option to upgrade prior to purchase.

As you said yourselves, the rack is an adaptation of a regular bicycle rack, which is not designed to hold a 10pound load. I don't believe that kit should be provided at all to any customer that purchases a battery the same size as the one I purchased (10ah kit)

This rack is only for the 10Ah battery, there are no other smaller batteries it is offered with. If you checkout this photo of the exact rack, it says "20lbs / 9kg weight limit". The 10Ah battery weighs around 5kg.

I see, so then the possibility I provided isn't a consideration.

I believe the photo you provided proves little to nothing. The part in question is Chinese-manufactured and maybe even a Chinese design? Many products manufactured and/or designed in china have grossly overestimated specifications. A user on this forum by the name of thebeastie who replied earlier has an example of this in his forum signature, the link is: http://youtu.be/eOshOXcSkDA it shows a seller selling a Chinese-made battery rated at 2400mah with an actual capacity of 66mah. This is an extreme case, but it's not uncommon for Chinese manufacturers to overstate their specifications.

I'll humor you for a second and pretend that the battery is rated for 9kg. You yourself admitted that the part was originally a standard bicycle rack and that it was re purposed or re-engineered to be used to hold your battery. So I pose the question, what was the 9kg rating for? 9kg of what? Is it a backpack on the back of the rack? Is it a box? Probably.... but I doubt the rating applies to something that is bolted solidly to the rack with no leeway or movement... a backpack and a box and anything else that rack is designed to hold bounces around and absorbs the vibrations and impacts of the road.... Your battery is bolted to the rack, which transfers all of the 5kg weight of the battery to the rack itself.... CONSTANTLY. Every single bump or vibration sends 5kg worth of energy into those tiny little welds on the bottom of the rack... they are bound to fail.

The proof of this is in the 1st rack you sent, it broke in 2 days! That's because it didn't have the felt pads that the 2nd rack had... the battery was CONSTANTLY vibrating on the rack, and I felt it myself the whole time... that cause the rack to fail in 2 days! When you sent me the rack replacements with the felt pads on them, the vibration from the battery was considerably cut down and I was not able to hear it anymore... but there was still vibration there, evidenced by the rack taking 17 days to break this time, instead of 2.

For these two reasons, the rating on the rack itself is not very applicable to this situation.

 

[blackjackel]

Regarding all the discussion of litigation, we have never even remotely insinuated that we intend to go after anyone for brand dilution, slander or trademark infringement. It's not in our interest and we're not interested in proverbial knife fights.

Regarding the comments on the use of our trademarks in the URL of the site setup to slander us, the idea of a trademark, and how a 'basic mark' works is not subjective or in dispute. It just is what it is. The word/text 'DILLENGER' is our trademark.

I've recognized that the rear rack supplied could be improved and I'm taking steps to investigate a better option that will also benefit our other kits (48V 20Ah+).

I've recognized that you were treated unfairly and you should have been offered a refund earlier in the picture.

I've apologized for the poor service you have experiences and offered you either a full refund or the upgrade to our heavy duty rear rack when available.

Any further complaints and slander from this point are for your amusement only.

slan·der 1. the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation.

You are implying that I've made false statements on my website. I invite you to point out a single lie or factual inaccuracy, on any of the pages contained within my site. I stated the truth, in its entirety, and nothing more.

I'm not interested in "proverbial knife fights" either. I never suggested that you were coming after me legally in any way. I was simply defending/explaining myself and pointing out the possibilities to those who were telling me that I should stand down because I am about to face a legal threat. That being said, I like being prepared, I will take what you said with a grain of salt and set up safeguards against any surprise litigation on your part, it won't take much effort on my part to do so.

You are correct, anything is open to dispute in a court of law; However, your trademark is held within Australia and is not registered internationally as far as I know... therefore it does not apply to my country which I reside and where the domain was established.... Also, as you said, trademarks infringement is open to dispute, and my argument is that my website does not violate your trademark.

I've recognized that you believe the rear rack can be improved, but fear the situation to be worse than you believe. I believe that utilizing the same rear rack in the future is a mistake, for the many reasons I've listed across the many sectioned-off responses that I gave you in my previous post.

I've recognized that you believe that I was treated unfairly and that I should have been offered a refund earlier in the picture. Thank you, i do appreciate that.

I've recognized your apology for the poor service that I have experienced as well as the refund offer (even if it was belated) and the upgrade to your heavy duty rear rack when available. The second option is the one I choose to take.

Any further complaints and slander from this point are for your amusement only.

This was an unnecessary statement for a few reasons:

- I have listed all my complaints before, leaving me incapable of complaining further unless other problems arise.

- I have never slandered you as I have only listed factual statements and logical conclusions on my website. If you find a lie, please point it out to me, privately if you wish.

- It is obvious that if I were to complain any further that the complaints would be for my own amusements, there is no need to state the obvious.


I will keep my promise of keeping the website as an informative tool by doing the following:

I will soon modify my webpage to include your responses as well as the conclusion that has been made. The first page will no longer contain my initial complaint about you, however I will link and explain the full situation from start to finish. I will keep my speech,as before, and to the best of my ability, neutral. Consumers may at this point deem you to be a reputable company that deserves their business.

I will include a link for anyone to contact me if they have experienced a failure of their rack and did not bother to contact you. I will forward you all correspondence in this regard, maybe I'll include a tally of the total known rack failures to inform others of how serious the issue is either way... I will state the truth. You mentioned "over 400", so I will assume between 400 and 500, so I'll set the total kits sold at 450, and as of right now the failure rate for that specific rack is 4, so 4/450 is %1 (i will round up or down).

I will stop informing consumers of my website on multiple electric-bike related forums across the web in the way that I have been doing for the past few days, as I no longer believe it an urgent issue for your consumers to know how you operate your business. I will continue to reach out to people to see if anyone has had rack failures.

Essentially the website will be re-purposed to find the extent of this problem.

 

[blackjackel]

It would be awesome if you can answer any of the following questions (explanation below, in short Dillinger has not received many complaints for their rack failures despite them being extremely inadequate in my experience (2 failures) ):

What kit do you have? The 1000w or the 1500w and with the 10ah or 20ah battery?

Have you experienced a failure with the rack provided to you? Did you buy and use a different rack instead? Did you contact dillenger about the rack failure?

How far have you ridden it, according to your odometer?

How often do you use it? Every other day, once a week, Once a month?

Where do you live? Do you have good roads where you live or do you have roads with cracks and bumps?


Hi guys, I'm the owner of a dillenger 1000w 10ah kit. My Dillenger rack 2 days after install then 17 days after install after I received an "upgraded" version with battery spacers from Dillenger. After the 2nd time it broke, I was told I was not going to be sent another under warranty... I detailed the whole ordeal on a website I created at http://www.dillengerelectric.com

Dillenger has since agreed to send anyone that has had a rack failure a new heavy-duty version that they will develop in the (hopefully) near future; However, they decided to make the heavy duty rack an optional upgrade for future kit buyers, their reasoning is that there have been very few reported cases of the racks breaking. Dillenger gives me the impression that I'm the only one that has experienced the rack failure, when in fact, two other people responded to the thread... one with a rack failure (That he didn't report to dilleneger) and the other saying that he bought another rack and used that, and had he used dillenger's rack it probably would have failed. This coupled with the fact that my rack broke twice in rapid succession leads me to believe that either 1- Dillenger is Lying about their rack failure report numbers or 2- The failures of the rack are wildly under-reported. I'm giving Dillenger the benifit of the doubt and choose to believe #2 to be true, Here are the possible reasons why one may not report a rack failure to Dillenger:

1- If the failure happened outside of the warranty, none of their customers would think to contact them (I myself wouldn't contact them about a failure outside of warranty).

2- Some may figure it's a cheap part and not worth contacting Dillenger over, opting to purchase a replacement somewhere else (this was the case with the first known rack failure that wasn't reported to Dillenger)

3- Some customers may not use the kit as often as others do, opting to leave the kit/bike in the garage and only using it occasionally, like once a month for example. My kit broke the second time over a period of 17 days, when I was using it nearly every day, I rode it for 200 miles.... Lets assume I used it 15 times before I broke for 200 miles, that means if I only rode my bike once a month or 16 or less miles per month I wouldn't have experienced the failure till after the warranty expired. See reason #1

4- Some customers may have opted to use their own equipment before they even try out Dillenger's rack, therefore never experiencing the breakage of the rack provided by Dillenger. This is the case with the other known rack failure that wasn't reported to Dillenger, this individual said that the replacement part they bought broke and that if they were to have used Dillenger's rack it would have likely broke as well.

5- I admit, this is my weakest point but some people may live in areas (like scandanavian countries) where roads are specifically tailored to bicycles, meaning they are kept freshly paved, flat, without any bumps or cracks, so that the vibration does not cause their rack to break as fast as it would someone living in an area of less than optimal roads.

6- Reasons #2 and #4 were only found out after those two people reported their broken racks on the support thread that I posted on the endless-sphere forums. There may be MANY more reasons why people don't report their broken racks that I cannot think of until they are given to me.


TLDR: If you've had a failure of the rack on the dillenger 1000w/1500w 10ah/20ah kits, please let us know. If you've ridden your kit for long periods of time without rack failure also let us know! Thank you!