lantice13
100 W
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Do the new MAC motors really have 0.27mm laminations?
- Thread starter neptronix
- Start date
Interesting as I just received a new MAC 10T Cassette.
Replaced a 12T that I thought was a 10T; until I saw the 12T inked on the stator.
BTW, 56 hours from cellman to my doorstep in Tucson. It beat the cassette order from Jenson by one day!
With a 10 speed it shaved about 1.3 lbs, and this rim is about +75 grams over the old one. New housing design and lighter/cheaper cassette options.
Smaller axle has a little thinner wall thickness on the cable exit side where the anti-rotate lever (ARL) was mounted before. Relocated the ARL to the chain side.
Not quite the stump pulling power off the line. On the epoxy garage floor, the 12T would turn a wheel with a full throttle snap (30A peak). Something rarely done to preserve life, but it had that kind of power. Off the line the 10T is plenty strong but not so much you get the grimacing after thoughts of potential clutch and gear damage. The rotor slips are pronounced off the line in geared motors making it sound more like skipping teeth.
Still has plenty of power to climb hills slowly (or quickly). More speed which I don't really need. 12T was good for about 25MPH, the 10T is good to about 29 MPH.
As far as Lams go, I never bothered to ask, but would be interesting to know.
Also updated to a Phaserunner from the 12FET Infinity. After a bit of tuning, the MAC10T is virtually silent up to 100 watts. The audible noise level across the range is very quiet.
Replaced a 12T that I thought was a 10T; until I saw the 12T inked on the stator.
BTW, 56 hours from cellman to my doorstep in Tucson. It beat the cassette order from Jenson by one day!
With a 10 speed it shaved about 1.3 lbs, and this rim is about +75 grams over the old one. New housing design and lighter/cheaper cassette options.
Smaller axle has a little thinner wall thickness on the cable exit side where the anti-rotate lever (ARL) was mounted before. Relocated the ARL to the chain side.
Not quite the stump pulling power off the line. On the epoxy garage floor, the 12T would turn a wheel with a full throttle snap (30A peak). Something rarely done to preserve life, but it had that kind of power. Off the line the 10T is plenty strong but not so much you get the grimacing after thoughts of potential clutch and gear damage. The rotor slips are pronounced off the line in geared motors making it sound more like skipping teeth.
Still has plenty of power to climb hills slowly (or quickly). More speed which I don't really need. 12T was good for about 25MPH, the 10T is good to about 29 MPH.
As far as Lams go, I never bothered to ask, but would be interesting to know.
Also updated to a Phaserunner from the 12FET Infinity. After a bit of tuning, the MAC10T is virtually silent up to 100 watts. The audible noise level across the range is very quiet.
lantice13
100 W
Triketech said:
If you repack the planetary reduction with Mobile grease 28, it really deadens the gear noise.
According to Paul, they haven't trickled down to him just yet. But if you spend a special request out, he might be able to make it happen.
I'm strongly thinking about getting one in a 20 inch wheel and pairing it with a phaserunner, which is said to be able to handle 60,000 eRPM.. plus the high voltage needed to spin a 6T up to crazy RPMs. Normally you'd hit a wall with the eRPM on most controllers.. so you either have to go with a VESC or RC controller... or lower your eRPM. But the phaserunner solves that problem.
60,000rpm / 16 poles / the 5:1 reduction = wheel 750rpm loaded max. 669rpm in a 20 inch wheel = 40mph..
So at 40mph we'd have the stator screaming along at 3,345rpm. The 20 inch wheel scenario is where the 0.27mm laminations come into play.. the low eddy losses of the 0.27mm lams is gonna really benefit you then at those RC Motor-esque RPMs.
Sorry to rant on about this.. but i just think the real killer application of this motor involves either small wheels, rear chain drive with big reduction, or mid drive etc. If you have a 26 inch wheel bike and just want to run this motor as a hub, i'd almost forget bothering about whether you get a 0.35mm version or a 0.27mm version.
I'm strongly thinking about getting one in a 20 inch wheel and pairing it with a phaserunner, which is said to be able to handle 60,000 eRPM.. plus the high voltage needed to spin a 6T up to crazy RPMs. Normally you'd hit a wall with the eRPM on most controllers.. so you either have to go with a VESC or RC controller... or lower your eRPM. But the phaserunner solves that problem.
60,000rpm / 16 poles / the 5:1 reduction = wheel 750rpm loaded max. 669rpm in a 20 inch wheel = 40mph..
So at 40mph we'd have the stator screaming along at 3,345rpm. The 20 inch wheel scenario is where the 0.27mm laminations come into play.. the low eddy losses of the 0.27mm lams is gonna really benefit you then at those RC Motor-esque RPMs.
Sorry to rant on about this.. but i just think the real killer application of this motor involves either small wheels, rear chain drive with big reduction, or mid drive etc. If you have a 26 inch wheel bike and just want to run this motor as a hub, i'd almost forget bothering about whether you get a 0.35mm version or a 0.27mm version.
mr.electric
10 kW
I would consider the switch from axle tube wire exit to hub shell wire exit just as important as the new laminations. Has anyone seen the new wire exit mentioned earlier in this thread?
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Samd
10 MW
Yep factory used up the last of the old lams two weeks ago.madin88 said:good news:
on the fb page of MAC Motor, they wrote (a few weeks ago) that all new motors will now come with 0.27mm lams
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neptronix said:
on a pedelec i'm running a 6T eZee in 27,5" wheel. at 48V the no-load speed is about 75kmh and it is drawing 150W. the speed i've limited to 45kmh, where the no load consumption is more like 50W.
so i would also say that in larger wheels the 0,27mm lams are not much useful, but in small wheels it will imporove continuous power. however, the difference generally isn't that big when going from 0,35 to 0,27mm lams..
hmm, but aren't we anyway power limited by the clutch and gears to about 1500-2000W? Or are those parts rather limiting the torque?
madin88 said:
Hey; the ezee is a bit different than the mac.. honestly someone needs to pull apart the modern ones and do a comparison. I know that at one point, the ezee had a smaller stator. I don't know if that still applies... but the motor is quite a bit lighter and i am not sure where the weight difference is. Nonetheless if the stator is smaller, the no load figure will also be lower.
Also, when we are comparing no loads, we need to think in terms of rpm VS watts. I used some figures from the 6T MAC on 60v to see what things would look like at really high RPM. Your RPMs are going to be lower on 48v.
As far as torque and clutch breakage.. I beat on an old 0.5mm lam mac for many years at 2600w peak when i was 90 pounds heavier, and didn't have rear suspension either. I could not manage to break the clutch. The secret sauce was in using a putzy phase to battery amp ratio. I believe mine was 2.45:1. This limited initial torque and is probably the only reason why my clutch never broke. The gears did not go until i decided to run 4kW through it, and they were gone in about 5 minutes.. lol
I think the same trick could apply to my crazy 20 inch wheel idea. And ultimately the motor itself isn't putting out much more torque.. it would be putting out roughly the same torque, just at a higher RPM.
Been running my 12T MAC at 40A battery and 112A phase for several years. I weigh 200 lbs and the MAC is in a 29" wheel with a Maxxis Hookworm that is 750mm OD. Never had a problem with the gears or the clutch and I hammer the throttle every time. I use and recommend Mobil 1 SHC 100 to lubricate the gears.
I did have a clutch problem after riding off road and beating the crap out of the MAC in a hardtail frame...the little springs that keep the rollers engaged in the clutch go knocked out of place and the clutch would not freewheel...stayed engaged and drove just fine and didn't slip.
After replacing the clutch, increased the amperage to 60A/180A temporarily but my battery couldn't handle it. Dropped it to 50A/180A for a little while before changing controllers and going back to 40A/112A. The clutch never slipped and the gears are in great shape.
Just FYI, the MAC produces more torque per amp than any motor in the Grin Tech Simulator and the newer GMAC is the same motor with regen capability. IMO the MAC is the greatest motor made...but it does have its limitations. The limit is the amount of amperage you push through the motor steady state...if you go too high, it will over heat. The limit is determined by a number of factors but primarily by your weight, the incline you are climbing, the diameter of the tire on the driving wheel (which is the final gearing), and velocity (how much power it takes to push the air out of the way) :lol: .
I did have a clutch problem after riding off road and beating the crap out of the MAC in a hardtail frame...the little springs that keep the rollers engaged in the clutch go knocked out of place and the clutch would not freewheel...stayed engaged and drove just fine and didn't slip.
After replacing the clutch, increased the amperage to 60A/180A temporarily but my battery couldn't handle it. Dropped it to 50A/180A for a little while before changing controllers and going back to 40A/112A. The clutch never slipped and the gears are in great shape.
Just FYI, the MAC produces more torque per amp than any motor in the Grin Tech Simulator and the newer GMAC is the same motor with regen capability. IMO the MAC is the greatest motor made...but it does have its limitations. The limit is the amount of amperage you push through the motor steady state...if you go too high, it will over heat. The limit is determined by a number of factors but primarily by your weight, the incline you are climbing, the diameter of the tire on the driving wheel (which is the final gearing), and velocity (how much power it takes to push the air out of the way) :lol: .