Do you think e-cargo bikes should have laws allowing them to have more power than ebikes?

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Current ebikes on the US limit power to under 750 watts.

Do you think e-cargo bikes should be allowed to have more power than this? If so, how much and how should the laws be written?

If you think that they shouldn't that is fine. State a reason why if you want.

I personally think they should have at least 5000 watts allowed but top speed should be limited. Perhaps if max speed using just the motor is 20 mph then it could be treated like an ebike and not need registration. However, if it can go 25mph to 30mph perhaps it should be treated like a type of emoped and thus require m2 drivers license, license plate and registration.

Speaking of emopeds, if you want to talk about that feel free to. Current laws on emopeds differ between states but the laws I have seen state a top speed of either 25 mph or 30 mph.

 

[Chalo]

You just keep hitting that pipe, man.

Given the amount of flagrant abuse and open violation of what I think are very reasonable allowances for e-bikes that can be operated with no license, no registration, no insurance, and no inspection... I don't think punching more openings for lawless dingdongs is a good idea at all.

P = ∆w/∆t

Power equals work divided by time.

750W is your legally legitimate P. Since this is a reasonably accurate measure of how big a problem you can make for other people when you screw up, I think it's completely fair that if you want more ∆w, you have to spend more ∆t doing it.

I don't wish that we were allowed to abuse each other, our cities, and the public trust by having unregulated motor vehicles. I only with that most of the (poorly) regulated ones would go away.

 

[john61ct]

Just do what you like

if the local plod are a PITA then move to a more amenable location.

Basically in 99.99% of jurisdictions, if it has usable pedals, and you keep it slow and safe, present as a respectable law-abiding citizen (not fit any profiles the local cops abuse)

they won't hassle you.

Avoid NYC.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Chalo,

Maybe kinetic energy of the rider, cargo bike and load is better target to regulate than power.

An example would be to limit top speed to 16 mph so that a cargo bike weighing a total of 469 pounds with rider and cargo has the same kinetic energy as a 300 pound ebike and rider at 20 mph.

I think this better than regulating power so much
...because if power is limited too much then it will be hard to get work done if hills are involved.

 

[Chalo]

Basically in 99.99% of jurisdictions, if it has usable pedals, and you keep it slow and safe, present as a respectable law-abiding citizen (not fit any profiles the local cops abuse)

they won't hassle you.

IOW, best be white, dress white.

 

[john61ct]

I like to believe not necessarily true in some USian jurisdictions.

 

[Chalo]

I like to believe not necessarily true in some USian jurisdictions.

Might be different in entirely white jurisdictions.

Where I am, POC are infinitely more likely to use dockless rental scooters or non-electric transport anyway. Perhaps they know what selective enforcement awaits them.

 

[99t4]

I prefer not to wake the hibernating bear.

By bringing any extra attention to ebike rules I fear the govt. and politicians will get overly involved and bring on regulations that will disfavor DIY systems. The big moneyed interests have the means to far out-lobby us DIY-ers and their interests do not match ours. I can see a result where only "approved" commercially manufactured systems would be allowed, and DIY systems prohibited.

Prefer to ride in a manner that does not give anyone means to complain. Does not mean that I do not ride an "over-watted" system, or never break the speed limit. I just don't do it where people would complain about it. Let the hibernating bear sleep.

 

[99t4]

An example would be to limit top speed to 16 mph so that a cargo bike weighing a total of 469 pounds with rider and cargo has the same kinetic energy as a 300 pound ebike and rider at 20 mph.

Can you explain how your example would work riding down a steep hill?

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

An example would be to limit top speed to 16 mph so that a cargo bike weighing a total of 469 pounds with rider and cargo has the same kinetic energy as a 300 pound ebike and rider at 20 mph.

Can you explain how your example would work riding down a steep hill?

Electronically triggered Regenerative braking could hold the bike to a max of 16 mph.

 

[dogman dan]

Any law will be ignored by the typical ES folks. We live to modify our bikes, and many consider 40 mph slow.

But I do agree that power limitations get stupid at some point. 500w motor, I've run them at 4000w, well briefly, but still, it was a 50 mph bike for a few laps of a race. So was that a sub 750w bike? Who knows? I'm sure 99% of judges won't know.

What makes some sense to me is speed limitations. That's the only thing that sort of works on the road for all other vehicles. I could be something along the lines of 25 mph on the street, 15 mph on MUP's. But anyplace can be posted to be slower. Like an elementary school is slower, same could be true of heavily used portions of MUP's. Speed limits work the same, uphill or downhill.

My state has no e bikes. Only motor assisted bikes classed as moped, limited to 5 hp, and 25 mph. But I'd ride past cops at 35mph and never get anything more than a friendly wave. But I was riding the right way down the street. It also helped to not look drunk and homeless.

But for now, its easy enough to push 750w to 1000w with no way any cops can tell in the USA. And for cargo bikes, I have built a cargo bike that ran on 1000w controller power, 500w rated 9c type motor, but it was capable of hauling a 400 pound load ( total weight) up the rocky mountains without overheating. For me, that was about 50 pounds of cargo capacity. The key ingredient was 20 inch motor wheel instead of 26.

 

[Eastwood]

Any law will be ignored by the typical ES folks. We live to modify our bikes, and many consider 40 mph slow.

Check, :lol:

 

[john61ct]

Yes, I agree that even a very large and popular campaign to liberalise the current state of affairs, come up with federally standard ebike friendly regulations

could easily result in effectively Anti DIY rules.

Better to keep things loose in reality.

 

[Eastwood]

I think it’s more about not breaking the E bike speed limit. The power doesn’t matter so much it’s about how fast you ride on public roads. It also depends on where you live.

The problem is young irresponsible people on their E bikes. They will eventually ruin it for all of us.

 

[BalorNG]

"If people were angels..." (c)
Anyway, use higher power but keep speed slow and you'll have no problems. It is more efficient and saver this way, so you'll have much less 'problems' overall. 25mph seems a reasonable top speed.

 

[donn]

To answer the question ... no.

• it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, to divide bicycles in two classes that way, where I don't recognize a clear distinction. People around here seem to often ride "cargo" bikes without any apparent load other than themselves. Others carry lots of stuff, on bicycles that don't have any special frame characteristics for carrying loads. If a law created an incentive for people with no load carrying needs to ride "cargo bikes" anyway, manufacturers could easily build the bicycles to suit them.
  
• I don't think the motor power available to a bicycle is a good basis for regulation in the first place, because it's hard to measure and not directly relevant to any problem the laws are trying to solve.

 

[john61ct]

I dunno, the DHL/UPS/FedEx delivery vehicles in dense downtowns are likely to get classified differently from regular eBikes anyway in coming (soon) years.

If there are going to be limitations, they need to be easy for a low-IQ cop to implement there and then at the side of the road.

So speed limits IMO, then have an open-hardware rego/insurance regime for those "having fun" or trying to keep up with high speed traffic on public roads.

But I also like the idea "motor stops assisting once over 25mph" to leave the option of human-only power at higher speeds for those fitter than I keeping it light.

 

[pickworthi]

I prefer not to wake the hibernating bear.

By bringing any extra attention to ebike rules I fear the govt. and politicians will get overly involved and bring on regulations that will disfavor DIY systems. The big moneyed interests have the means to far out-lobby us DIY-ers and their interests do not match ours. I can see a result where only "approved" commercially manufactured systems would be allowed, and DIY systems prohibited.

I agree with this. But I fear the bear is not hibernating, but just dozy.

I come to this from the RC self build world. Everything was fine until the press whipped up a moral panic about "drones" flying "close to airliners". Started as a drip, drip in some obvious red tops, and then something like Gatwick happens (still no evidence of an actual drone there by the way) and bingo - Government consults with its business buddies and the RC hobby is effectively wiped out by requirements to register as an official pilot with the relevant authority.

Right now I can see the steady drip, drip of e-mobility stories in the local press and red tops: Someone "mowed down" by an e-bike, someone "almost run over" (the favourite) by an e-scooter, and so on. I fear we are one moral panic from having regulation enforced, in line with big business wishes.

So, no. I am not in favour of giving more fuel to this by asking for more power on unregulated vehicles.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I think it’s more about not breaking the E bike speed limit. The power doesn’t matter so much it’s about how fast you ride on public roads.

If technology able to regulate speed exists (e.g. Electronically controlled/triggered Regenerative braking) then maybe it is time to eliminate power limits across all ebikes (type 1,2 and 3).

If an ebike is not able to limit speed then it can use the less than 750 watt rule.

 

[Chalo]

If technology able to regulate speed exists (e.g. Electronically controlled/triggered Regenerative braking) then maybe it is time to eliminate power limits across all ebikes (type 1,2 and 3).

I liked the old Texas law, which did not set a power limit, but did set both a motor-only speed limit (20 mph) and a bike weight limit (100 pounds). Those are two things that are easy for both the rider and law enforcement to measure, and both relevant to safety.

Now we have California-style class 1, 2, & 3 categories, all with 750W limits that aren't clearly defined but are difficult to measure.

One technological approach I haven't seen yet is for a manufacturer to make a dedicated system that puts out exactly 750 watts at the wheel over the largest possible range of speeds, up to the maximum. This would require all the pieces of the system to be capable of much higher output, but be regulated to the statutory limit. Programming could make it arbitrarily class 3 compliant, class 1-2 compliant, EU compliant, etc. It could declare its restriction setting on startup, for those developmentally challenged folks who work as traffic cops.

 

[BalorNG]

If technology able to regulate speed exists (e.g. Electronically controlled/triggered Regenerative braking) then maybe it is time to eliminate power limits across all ebikes (type 1,2 and 3).

I liked the old Texas law, which did not set a power limit, but did set both a motor-only speed limit (20 mph) and a bike weight limit (100 pounds). Those are two things that are easy for both the rider and law enforcement to measure, and both relevant to safety.

Now we have California-style class 1, 2, & 3 categories, all with 750W limits that aren't clearly defined but are difficult to measure.

One technological approach I haven't seen yet is for a manufacturer to make a dedicated system that puts out exactly 750 watts at the wheel over the largest possible range of speeds, up to the maximum. This would require all the pieces of the system to be capable of much higher output, but be regulated to the statutory limit. Programming could make it arbitrarily class 3 compliant, class 1-2 compliant, EU compliant, etc. It could declare its restriction setting on startup, for those developmentally challenged folks who work as traffic cops.

Well, one way would be to sell only supervised batteries with locked BMS that shut down the pack as soon as current draw exceeds a certain predetermined value, and limit voltages to, say, 36 or even 24 (safer this way, too) - and lithium batteries DO need some regulation due to being a considerable fire hazard, especially when poorly designed/abused.
The cops would just need to check your battery and see whether it was tampered with.

Just like internet, once a thing becomes 'too popular for it's own good', there would be enforcements and crackdowns, this is quite inevitable unfortunately. We just got to enjoy it while it lasts.

 

[Chalo]

One technological approach I haven't seen yet is for a manufacturer to make a dedicated system that puts out exactly 750 watts at the wheel over the largest possible range of speeds, up to the maximum.

Well, one way would be to sell only supervised batteries with locked BMS that shut down the pack as soon as current draw exceeds a certain predetermined value,

Regulating input power is a very poor way of controlling output power, and would be completely ineffective at holding output power to a fixed value over a wide speed range. What I'm talking about would require kWs of power to develop 750W output at low wheel speed, but maybe only 900-1000W input to make 750W at cruising speed.

 

[BalorNG]

One technological approach I haven't seen yet is for a manufacturer to make a dedicated system that puts out exactly 750 watts at the wheel over the largest possible range of speeds, up to the maximum.

Well, one way would be to sell only supervised batteries with locked BMS that shut down the pack as soon as current draw exceeds a certain predetermined value,

Regulating input power is a very poor way of controlling output power, and would be completely ineffective at holding output power to a fixed value over a wide speed range. What I'm talking about would require kWs of power to develop 750W output at low wheel speed, but maybe only 900-1000W input to make 750W at cruising speed.

Yea, compared to my own human power (I can do 1000+w on upright bike ) acceleration on e-bike is definitely leaves much to be desired, despite it 'in theory' being more powerful than I am "in peak". Efficiency of electric motor w/o gears really suffers, at low end in particular.

 

[dogman dan]

Cops and Judges would have no good way to tell if you had the regulated battery, or not. So that works just as poorly as the three class system.

The old Texas law was just about perfect. I just thank god nobody cares yet in NM. The way the oxy addicts are shooting each other in burque, it could be awhile before ebikes get noticed. Good.

As for fedex, or other larger delivery EV's, they don't need or want pedals. But they could use speed limits, so they don't get dangerous, or need expensive air bags and such. The manufacturers can simply choose motor systems that won't exceed speeds at max voltage, and then be as powerful as they want. Similar to NEV's.

What's needed for that to work well though, is to slow the f--cing cagers in cars and trucks down in cities. I wish everything inside city limits was 30 mph max, except for highways with controlled access. People drive 50 mph past a walmart here these days.

 

[john61ct]

Ban private 4-wheel vehicles completely in downtowns