Don't Shoot! At least till you hear the message first!

[LI-ghtcycle]

http://www.projectm85.com/prototype.html
Ok, it's NOT electric, it's not really a Bicycle, but it's not REALLY a true motorcycle since it uses much of it's components from free-ride/DH mountain bikes, and I'd say it is VERY interesting in the sense of what it could if designed to be an off-road E-bike.

For comparison, there is stealth bikes "The Bomber":

http://www.stealthelectricbikes.com.au/stealth_bomber.html

Here is my question: if both bikes are about the same weight (125.4 lbs for the Bomber and 127 lbs dry weight for the M85) is it fair to compare the two? For one, I'd really like to know the "wet" (with fuel) weight of the M85, I'd guess add another 10-20 lbs?

I know that electric motors are known for their instant torque, and I am really curious to see what (if any) would be a fair comparison of power, I know that going with HP, the M85 has 19 and the Bomber has 4 HP, but maybe it makes up for it in torque?

 

[AussieJester]

preeeety sure its been posted before too, theres actually even more streamline ICE powered 'light motorcycles' using high end downhill MTB components...

KiM

 

[julesa]

Tank capacity ~1.5 gallons, fuel will add 8 or 9 pounds.

 

[liveforphysics]

That little Kawi 85cc engine will easily be able to do 15+hp continuously. It also has it's weight in the right places to be able to handle well. The performance difference would be like an order of magnitude different between the stealth bikes hubmotor bike and this light motorcycle.

 

[AussieJester]

That little Kawi 85cc engine will easily be able to do 15+hp continuously.

And do so for hours on end with one minute re-fills in between to 'top up the tank'

It also has it's weight in the right places to be able to handle well. The performance difference would be like an order of magnitude different between the stealth bikes hubmotor bike and this light motorcycle.

Too true Luke...that Stealth bike would be an absolute pig of a bike in comparison. And what a HEAVY pig they
are too, my cruiser is ~7KG LIGHTER than the Stealth Bomber W T F!!!!!!

KiM

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

I wonder how well the ZERO electric motorcycle compares to other ICE's in it's weight category ....

I'm really curious if anyone here has made something here that would be in the running with that little M85 ....

 

[enoob]

"The Blade is produced in Southern Oregon, USA by Denali Electric Cycles which has produced electric cycles since 1992 using CAD, laser, and CNC technology extensively. The powerful electrical components are sourced through the golf car industry, using proven, commercially available standard parts. The chassis is adorned with the latest downhill bicycle racing goodies for light weight and high strength. The result is a 165 pound, 18 horsepower low-impact dirt bike with brutal torque"

taken right from the site http://www.electricmoto.com/
wich sucks by the way considering what they offer i saw this bike im pretty sure rip through burnaby http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkLHqGrCE_Y . got me into this almost a year ago
never found the guy , he wailed passed a buddy and me working on the side of the road i never caught up to him but that was the hook for me.

made in Oregon baby

 

[AussieJester]

Need to get the 'site' from the front url there enoob The gallery on their site isn't happening for me is it empty for others? From the pic on the home page i gotta say that bike actually looks half decent, not like some MTB/junior motorcross e-bike mutt crossbred looking offering. Has some size too it beefy tires and suspension, looks like it could handle a jump or two without crumbling...unlike some of these e-motocross bikes...

KiM

 

[ryan_lirui]

I was actually looking at this m85 not that long ago as I'd like to do some sort of a ultralight performance e-motorcycle type of thing some day, but not until I get my first project done

Now i hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this bike (M85) is not a production bike yet. They still haven't found anyone to invest in it yet so there's no real way of getting the bike in the first place. If you're interested, here is the actual original forum thread where the guys actually log their build of this bike as final project for their Industrial Design degrees: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135255

Since we're still all pie in the sky, I'd like to show you the Derbi DH 2.0 concept.

http://www.derbi.com/int/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=146&Itemid=283
which is even lighter at 40kg (88lbs) dry weight.

Too bad you can't have it! Looking at these bikes I haven't been this heartbroken since I heard rumor of the Aprilia RSV450 which never came to be

At any rate, maybe you can find consolation in the fact that the M85 isn't that much different than yamaha's bike which is already out on the market, the yz85 which at 126lbs dry weight

http://www.yamaha-motor.ca/products/products.php?model=3260&class=80&group=M|&LANG=en

You might also want to check out FXBikes:

http://www.fxbikes.com
These bikes weigh in at 125lbs wet

In my personal opinion, I don't think it's fair to make a direct comparison to any ICE motor as the way they behave is far too different. Perhaps I should have left this stuff on a strictly e-motocross thread

 

[AussieJester]

The Derby was the bike i had seen posted before i think. Make a very competitive of a 125cc 'motogp' bike HAHA the Derby is 17kgs LIGHTER than the Stealth Electric bike ...

KiM

EDIT: i meant to add this vid earlier also

[youtube]t5v0F_nKjnI[/youtube]

Nice little bike apparently was going to be produced...

p.s we want to see some video action like this (1:33 mark of vid) from you Luke when you have your 18hp bike running again!

 

[mabman]

Here is a much more affordable alternative (around $2500 usd I beilieve) that is available and arguably the lightest.

And performing here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYEtCbGeMmI

The Morini motor used on this bike is pretty durable and light because it is a 2 smoke. That type of motor however holds no interest for me as I don't want a motorized bike to hit the trails with. I have a mtn. bike for that purpose.

That Derby is a really nice machine and is about the only reason I would get a motorcycle license if they made one as a dual purpose. I filled out a form on their site a few years ago they had to see if there was any interest in it worldwide but I guess it didn't get enough interest. Looks like a great platform for electric also.

Edit. I can never figure out how to embed you tube and the picture thing isn't working for me today either....

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Here is a much more affordable alternative (around $2500 usd I beilieve) that is available and arguably the lightest.

And performing here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYEtCbGeMmI

The Morini motor used on this bike is pretty durable and light because it is a 2 smoke. That type of motor however holds no interest for me as I don't want a motorized bike to hit the trails with. I have a mtn. bike for that purpose.

That Derby is a really nice machine and is about the only reason I would get a motorcycle license if they made one as a dual purpose. I filled out a form on their site a few years ago they had to see if there was any interest in it worldwide but I guess it didn't get enough interest. Looks like a great platform for electric also.

Edit. I can never figure out how to embed you tube and the picture thing isn't working for me today either....

THAT'S WHAT I'M TALK'N ABOUT!

If I got one with a 4-stroke, that would be a nice second bike! Man, only 60lbs dry weight, pretty impressive, though I would like have it electric.

 

[AussieJester]

The guy that made the protoype and few frames after is a active member on Motoeredbikes.com (was)...
i wasn't aware they were available "off the shelf" yet either, the fellas building them are like a 2 man operation ...good luck getting one before next christmas ...


KiM

EDIT:

p.s the Mornini motor is illegal in all US states for on road ues too...just so you know...

 

[mabman]

Actually there are some states here that only list 50cc max and don't have any ruling on brake hp so that bike would be legal in those states on public roads and bike lanes as long as it isn't exceeding the 30mph speed limit. Not saying that I would like to see that happen but that just shows one more time the inconsistencies of the laws here. At some point they will get a handle on it though when they figure out how many people are flying under the fee radar

 

[Chris_Faherty]

I have some similar bikes to compare; Stealth Bomber, Zero X, KTM 105 SX.

Here is Zero X (150 lb) on trail. Stock Mars motor, 4844 controller (60VDC 400A), 88% power. Pretty good power since I am overdriving the poor motor. Top speed is limited to 43 mph in my configuration.

http://vholdr.com/node/50438

Same trail with KTM 105 SX (162 lb). Stock except for springs. Insane power to weight. Very fast.

http://vholdr.com/node/54566

Stealth Bomber (130 lb) on different trail, full speed. White Brothers Groove 200 forks. Much more nimble than the other two + faster rolling. Lower center of gravity and shorter wheelbase.

http://vholdr.com/node/52005

There isn't much overlap amongst them. By far the most powerful and torquey is the KTM 105 SX. The Zero X is lacking top speed and range due to electric-only, and a conservative battery pack cut off. The Stealth Bomber is very soft power delivery, which believe me, is appropriate for synchronizing with your pedalling. You would not want snatchy power on a bicycle hybrid. Stealth Bomber gives you flexible range because it is fast rolling and pedal assist.

 

[AussieJester]

Actually there are some states here that only list 50cc max and don't have any ruling on brake hp so that bike would be legal in those states on public roads and bike lanes as long as it isn't exceeding the 30mph speed limit.

The Morini motor has passed the 2010 EPA rulings for on road use to has it? I know the HT motor all the stink bike riders love so much is now banned as of 2010 and not legally avaiable in USofA...Also might want to check the individual state laws, anything with a motor UNDER 50cc is classified as a moped and in alot states requires a license registration and insurance...There is also a hp rating along with max speed on most states.

http://www.moped2.org/mstates.htm

You would not want snatchy power on a bicycle hybrid.

..riiiight... Might want to have a look on this site in the non-hub motor section at some of the higher wattage rides they make the Stealth Bomber look tame, and 'snatchy' accelration is exactly what they have ...my ride included.

KiM

 

[mabman]

Seriously AJ, not trying to be argumentative here as I know you know your stuff, but I have gone through those laws also and saw loop holes big enough to drive something like the bike in question through and without going to far in to it here is at least one and there are few others with the same type of wording that don't have brake hp limits and at this time there are no 2 strokes that i know of that meet EPA requirements for on road use but that doesn't stop all those Chinacrap motors from being on the road......edit: reread your post and the new law that has apparently gone in to effect without my paying attention do put a stop on 2 strokes as you say so you win. Well we all do actually because 2 strokes suck.

Idaho Moped Laws

Moped Definition
"Moped" means a limited-speed motor-driven cycle having both motorized and pedal propulsion that is not capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed in excess of thirty (30) miles per hour on level ground, whether two (2) or three (3) wheels are in contact with the ground during operation. If an internal combustion engine is used, the displacement shall not exceed fifty (50) cubic centimeters and the moped shall have a power drive system that functions directly or automatically without clutching or shifting by the operator after the drive system is engaged.

Idaho Code 49-114(9) states that a motorcycle must have a "seat or saddle for the use of the riders" so a scooter does not meet the definition of a motorcycle. It does, however, meet the definition of a moped because it is under 50cc and is direct drive with a speed of less than 30 mph and there is no requirement for a "seat or saddle" to be a moped. However, neither a motorcycle endorsement nor a helmet would be a requirement regardless of age.
Idaho Code 49-301 states specifically that "no person, except those expressly exempted by the provisions of this chapter, shall drive any motor vehicle upon a highway unless the person has a valid Idaho driver's license."

Idaho Code 49-123(g) defines a vehicle as every "vehicle which is self-propelled...except vehicles moved solely by human power and motorized wheelchairs".

By state law, this would require the operator of a motorized skateboard or motorized scooter to have a valid license if they are being operated on a street.

A motorized skateboard does not fit the definitions for a motorcycle because it has four wheels and even if it did, it would be under 50cc so the operator would not need a motorcycle endorsement nor would they be required to wear a helmet, regardless of age.

Idaho Code 49-428(a) refers to the display of license plates on a motor vehicle. There is no specific exemption listed for motorized skateboards like there is for mopeds. Since motorized skateboards do meet the definition of a motor vehicle and are not specifically exempt, they need to be registered and have properly displayed license plates. Motorized scooters do meet the definition of a moped which is exempt so they do not need to be registered.

Idaho Code 49-1428 states that "it shall be unlawful for any person to operate a motor vehicle upon highways without a valid policy of liability insurance in effect." Again, motorized skateboards are not specifically exempt so they do need to have valid liability insurance is they are operated on the roadway. Motorized scooters also are not exempt and they would need to be insured. Additionally, since motorized skateboards and motorized scooters are motor vehicles by definition, they cannot be driven on the sidewalk in any other manner than a car can be driven on the sidewalk, i.e. to cross the sidewalk at alley, parking lot and driveway entrances.

 

[AussieJester]

Seriously AJ, not trying to be argumentative here as I know you know your stuff, but I have gone through those laws also and saw loop holes big enough to drive something like the bike in question through

True enough...might want to have a look at the current dramas members are having with less powerful 49cc powered MTBs over on Motoredbike.com forums, when i was a member there not so long ago seemed every other day a member was being hassled out
by the law, and with strictor EPA regs for 2010 4 strokes are going to be all thats legally allowed on the roads...

I think the bike is excellent for what it is dont get me wrong but i think riding it on the street your asking for trouble, what are those Morinis? 6hp? Makes no difference to me either way haha we have 200watt limit in OZ 49cc bikes are legal period hence i have to put up with a pissy e-bike as they are 'stealth' i would 100% prefer to have a 47cc 10hp watercooled pocket bike motor in my cruiser so i could take day trips...



KiM

 

[Chris_Faherty]

(Re snatchy power) ..riiiight... Might want to have a look on this site in the non-hub motor section at some of the higher wattage rides they make the Stealth Bomber look tame, and 'snatchy' accelration is exactly what they have ...my ride included.

You could do it, well not with a non-geared hub motor, but I just think it sucks to have snatchy power with a pedal assist. Personal preference that's all.

I had my Zero X running pretty hot and it was just impossible to be smooth beyond 1/2 throttle. The Alltrax didn't have enough parameters to fix it. The trick of adding some capacitance to the throttle was the only solution, to have linear power and still have steady-state cruising. I would assume the same problem with pedals and snatchy linear power, it would keep you from maintaining the appropriate pedal assist.

 

[AussieJester]

it would keep you from maintaining the appropriate pedal assist.

HAHA well thats the thing buddy, i dont think there is a whole lot of 'pedal assist' to talk about with some of these members high powered rides heck some dont even have pedals at all LOL...

KiM

 

[enoob]

some dont even have pedals at all LOL...

KiM

wich makes me think of one of my favorite nicks/avatars on ES

Ypedal

 

[AussieJester]

some dont even have pedals at all LOL...

KiM

wich makes me think of one of my favorite nicks/avatars on ES

Ypedal

HAHA yes YPedal man is one with a few pedal-less rides ...Also has one
i know of high powered ride with pedals, dunno how much use they get as functioning pedals though, prolly not alot LoL..

He could change his nick to Pedal-less couldnt he

KiM

 

[mabman]

True enough...might want to have a look at the current dramas members are having with less powerful 49cc powered MTBs over on Motoredbike.com forums, when i was a member there not so long ago seemed every other day a member was being hassled out
by the law, and with strictor EPA regs for 2010 4 strokes are going to be all thats legally allowed on the roads...

I think the bike is excellent for what it is dont get me wrong but i think riding it on the street your asking for trouble, what are those Morinis? 6hp? Makes no difference to me either way haha we have 200watt limit in OZ 49cc bikes are legal period hence i have to put up with a pissy e-bike as they are 'stealth' i would 100% prefer to have a 47cc 10hp watercooled pocket bike motor in my cruiser so i could take day trips...



KiM

I am not at all interested in the drama over there or anywhere. I also don't want to ride one of those on the street and never have. But if there was some moto trail in front of me and one of those under me and a good helmet on my head and some boots on my feet I would at least give it a rip I was just using it as a comparison to the other bikes posted by the OP but in the end it is ICE and this forum is all about E.

So to that end in revisiting the thing I did delete the Morini in my minds eye, because I don't have photochop, and put something more on the order of this in its place and added the necessary electronics....


But for an even more subtle and lighter rig ring up recumpence for one of his units...The bottom line is that area seems like a great fit for either system?

 

[gestalt]

I have that motor and I don't have any plan on including pedals on my ride either. I have really high hopes for this motor.