E-bike speed limits wtf?

[veloman]

The problem is that in many areas, there will only be bicycle infrastructure, or a highway. Neither will allow a moped. Keeping with the bicycle class, we will be able to continue using sidewalks along a highway when we don't want to mix with 60mph traffic. For example, the new bike bridge being built over Barton Creek at Mopac.

 

[alsmith]

It's back to original choice, get something suitable for your intended use. Sometimes it's an ebike, sometimes not. Don't struggle with the wrong solution, be honest and get the right transport.

 

[heavymetalthunder]

30 MPH is about the max I would want to take a bike, and that would be a on a full suspension steel frame. Hitting a pot hole or a rut at 30 MPH can really damage some bikes.

 

[Bronko]

I don't understand why this is such a divided issue when so many ES members build bikes that easily reach speeds of 30mph?

So what if you would have to register it. I have my M class license and I do have plans on building a Emoto or E scooter in the future.

I just wish there was a more clear path for someone who wants to ride a home-build on the street.

As mentioned before I don't think we will see a mainstream adoption of Ebikes until 30mph is put in place.

Then builders and manufactures can cater to that demographic with out telling them to hit the "off Road button".

 

[ddk]

I don't understand why this is such a divided issue when so many ES members build bikes that easily reach speeds of 30mph?

So what if you would have to register it. I have my M class license and I do have plans on building a Emoto or E scooter in the future.

I just wish there was a more clear path for someone who wants to ride a home-build on the street.

As mentioned before I don't think we will see a mainstream adoption of Ebikes until 30mph is put in place.

Then builders and manufactures can cater to that demographic with out telling them to hit the "off Road button".

I've used bicycles and mopeds as transportation since the 60's and it's my opinion the only thing keeping the usA from adopting these vehicles is lack of infrastructure supporting low-speed low-traffic use.
Doesn't exist in most metro and suburban areas where you can moped or bike down to the local superstore without having to access a high-speed high-traffic road at some point.
I've been lots of places, including Winnemucca.

 

[veloman]

Yes, there is a big change happening in many us cities right now - building bicycle infrastructure. That is only chance of safe travel, is on bicycle infrastructure. Be happy with the official 20mph limit on ebikes and being allowed on. Bike infrastructure. We need to keep the current classification. A moped is the most restricted form of transport. No bike infra, and any road faster than 35mph is either too dangerous or not legal for a moped. My fiance spent 80min on 1.5mile of Guadalupe last week on her scoter. That BLOWS. you will lose bike infra access if you seek a fast ebike class

 

[gogo]

Its a rooted practice in the USA to regulate motorized conveyances. As soon as some politician or special interest has something to gain from it, electric bikes will on the regulation chopping block, too.

Even non-motorized bicycle use subjects the rider to the whim of law enforcement personnel. They used the claim of riding on one of the few restricted sidewalks in my small city to chase a bicyclist and then claim he ran into their cruiser.

 

[Bronko]

Even non-motorized bicycle use subjects the rider to the whim of law enforcement personnel. They used the claim of riding on one of the few restricted sidewalks in my small city to chase a bicyclist and then claim he ran into their cruiser.[/quote]


This is terrible that the law in your town is so cruel to cyclist.

 

[alsmith]

Perhaps the cyclist should take more care? If he can hit a cruiser he could hit a pedestrian, possibly a toddler, pram, or another cyclist. Maybe he's been seen before, or been the subject of complaints- I think most of us have seen irresponsible cyclists, there are plenty of them about.

 

[Bronko]

Here's what will happen, the ordinary public, none ES members, remember we are a small community and even smaller still in our respective cities, will start demand a for "fast ebikes" or electric mopeds. Legit builders and shops will want to cater to this growing demand. New ebike riders will also create a case for mainstream adoption in the states and thus will create a new motor-vehicle class of e-mopeds that can do up to 40mph. Bikes will be subject to safety inspection and registration like a regular moped but since the bikes are zero emission they can still use bike lanes and bike paths In a "restricted mode" when necessary.

This will happen eventually and in some cities this is already starting. I for one hope to be apart of this two wheeled revolution and not a stick in the mud who wants to keep on of the greatest modes of transport all to myself.

For those of you who fear change or want to stay "under the radar" that's fine. I just want to face the future on my own terms and not to what the law or fellow builders deem as unwise. This is narrow sited and not utilizing ebikes to there full potential, that is being the ultimate commuting machine, that keeps up to pace with modern life.

 

[alsmith]

..... I just want to face the future on my own terms and not to what the law or fellow builders deem as unwise. This is narrow sited and not utilizing ebikes to there full potential, that is being the ultimate commuting machine, that keeps up to pace with modern life.

When it gets to the state were fast ebikes are registered they will *all* need to be registered. For practicality. Police will rightfully be represented on the consultation board with a strong argument- ordinary police can't be expected to know the differences between ebikes. Cost of training all officers to tell the difference can't be justified, and both the public followed by the politicians follow this stance of all being registered. The result would be ALL ebikes have to registered. That would lead to compulsory road-worthiness testing and compulsory insurance. There s already at least one group wanting this- road cyclists (and their numbers are significantly higher than e-cyclists).

Things will eventually reach a tipping point then we will all have to register.

That tipping point will be determined financially- when the revenues cover costs. You can't tell me that civil servants won't already have a spreadsheet with a financial evaluation in major countries (US, some States, EU, some countries inclining the UK and Germany....). Only one thing will change that time- some kind of high profile accident death or incident that raises the issue to near the top of the public conciousness.

It's not a case of if it will happen, it's when.

 

[Kent]

"

Nope. I ain't supporting that.
Most bicycles are NOT capable of safely going over 20mph for extended periods of time. An ebike that could go 30 should get the same laws and regulations as a moped, since it is a (MO)tor-(PED)al vehicle. Inspections, DOT approved tires, brakes, lights, and pay their fair share of the road tax."

I went and did that for precisely those reasons. Got the plate and inspection sticker:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49390

Although by rights, I should have gotten it registered as a motorcycle as Vermont's "Motor Driven Cycle" replaces the 20-30 mph moped class and I consistently cruise at 35-40 mph.

 

[Cephalotus]

I'm with you Bronko. There's no limit other than speed limit on regular bikes, why the heck should there be limits just because you put an assist motor on it. A young fit cyclist can ride over 30mph easily for miles, and over 40 mph going downhill. It's simply discrimination. I'd like to see a minimum of 25mph and would prefer 30mph. However, I do think one should be at least 16 to use a motor...

A fit 3 year old can easily ride a bicycle and go 40mph downhill. Why do you suggest a minimum age when using a motor?

Maybe you can see the point now.

Someone who is able to pedal 30mph "easily for miles" (which 99% of the population is NOT able to do) has thousands of miles of training and is used to those speeds...

Of course I would like to see a higher speed level than we have now for our electric "bicyles" in the EU (15,5mph) but I see the point in speed limits. I would be happy with 20mph for an electric assisted "bicycle" as you have in the US, if the thing remains a bicycle legally.

In Germany we have the s-Pedelec class with a speed limit of 28mph (45km/h), but it is not a bicycle by law anymore, you need insurance and a license plate and you are not able to build your own (or at least it is quite expensive to get it legal).
Imho this is around the limits of bicycle technology for everyday usage.

Sure, road bike can go 40mph and faster downhill, but they will not survive hitting a large hole at that speed. Downhill bikes might survive, but even those riders do wear protection for good reasons.

At 35-40mph on a MTB you could also remove the pedals, because human contribution will be homoeopathic from most riders. Imho this is a motorcycle, not a bicycle.

 

[Cephalotus]

When it gets to the state were fast ebikes are registered they will *all* need to be registered. For practicality. Police will rightfully be represented on the consultation board with a strong argument- ordinary police can't be expected to know the differences between ebikes....

In this regard this regulation works very well in Germany.

99% of the electric bikes sold are standard pedelecs (25km/h limit) without any registration / insurance which are bicycles by law. You can build your own.

There is also around 1% s-Pedelecs which need registration and insurance. Those have to carry a license plate.

The police is not (very) interested in controlling bikes and looking which type is what. But it can become important if you are involved in an accident or if you run into a general control of bicycles which occur from time to time (mostly because 50% of the bicyclists don't use lights at night). They may(!) check your motor in that case...

If I'm run over by a bicyclist with a fast e-bike a sure hope that this guy/gal has proper insurance.

 

[Cephalotus]

Anyway, I'm trying to say just because 10 or 15 mph makes sense for the bike trails, doesn't mean it's ideal for an ebike that is trying to survive on the street.

It's an infrastructure problem.

If you are very lucky you find 3 types of infrastructure:

1. a road
2. a bike trail
3. a footpath

On 1) the spped limit is 50km/h in cities and 100km/h outside
on 2 the average people drive 10km/h to 20km/h, very few do 30km/h
on 3) the average speed is 3km/h

If you want to use this infrastructure you have to be in the same speed category.

So if you want to ride on the street you should be able to do at least 50km/h which translates to an (electric) motorcycle, a type of vehicle that exists.
If you want to use #2 youhave to stay within those limits. Motorcycles usually(!) are not allowed on bike paths for good reason. Why should electric motorcycles be allowed? There is NO reason for that? Zero emission next to a busy road has zero relevance for other cyclists.

It would be perfect if there would be an infrastructure for 30-60km/h "light vehicles" which could include e-bikes, but in reality we often don't find even all 3 options above (often bike and foot path is mixed so you have a speed between 3km/h to 20km/h and most fast bicyclists are not even able to ride 30km/h because of all those people moving much slower on the same lane), so it will stay a dream that we will see nation wide 4th grade of infrastructure.

You have to decide on which side you want to ride:

using the road requires a motorcycle.
using the bike lane requires a bicycle and requires bicycle speed.

Btw the infrastructure problem is exactly the biggest problem that our fast s-Pedelec class faces. Those s-Pedelecs usually drive around 35-40km/h which is to fast for bike pathes (they are not allowed there but you most likely will get away using them at reasonable speed) and they are to slow for many streets with lots of traffic at 50km/h+

 

[Cephalotus]

Any fit cyclist can go 30+ mph on flat surface with a decent road bike. Why should we old unfit farts be limited to 20 mph? I guarantee my bike is a lot more stable at higher speeds than some flimsy light weight road bike with 1" tires.

I'm sure that the frame of your 99US$ bike (signature) has be manufactured with the very best quality control, so you are able to guarantee that it will run very well with your 1000W hub motor in any situation for the next 25 years...

 

[gogo]

Nope. I ain't supporting that.
Most bicycles are NOT capable of safely going over 20mph for extended periods of time. An ebike that could go 30 should get the same laws and regulations as a moped, since it is a (MO)tor-(PED)al vehicle. Inspections, DOT approved tires, brakes, lights, and pay their fair share of the road tax.…

Since bicycles and ebikes use local roads they are already paying their fair share through local taxes, and are probably subsidizing other vehicular traffic by virtue of the negligent amount of wear two-wheelers cause.

If one assumes that the regulations on petrol devices are useful, why would the substitution of the source of power not be directly analogous?

When I was a youngster riding my bicycle in my small city of less than 20 sq. mi., I was able to keep up with traffic for the short distances I rode. Because of the irrationally negative attitudes towards bicyclists, however, I felt uncomfortable and unsafe doing so. This was evidenced by cars coming up behind me at stops while I was queued in the lane with them and honking at me and yelling to get out of the way followed by tail-gating and forced, inappropriate passes initiated solely because I was on a bicycle. I was a sprinter in my school Track and Field program and was keeping up just fine.

I was happy when I got a moped license at the age of 14, except that the legal speed for new mopeds sold by dealers then was 25 MPH. Other motorists 'tolerated' the mopeds more politely. It wasn't until I modified my moped to go 45 MPH that I finally felt more comfortable blending with traffic due to my increased ability to keep the tail-gaters at bay.

I felt even more comfortable when I got my motorcycle license at age 16 due to the increased ability to out accelerate other traffic and thereby control the gap behind me even more. When I drive a car I don't worry about the gap to my rear as much and tend to anger some fellow motorists by driving 5 MPH under the limit.

My point about all this is the way fellow motorists affect safety. Wouldn't it be grand if our fellow road users gave us safe spacing no matter what our choice of conveyance? I'm amazed frequently by the unsafe attitudes adopted by my fellow road users and the resulting unsafe culture of speed and haste. Maybe reform of road manners is more important than the speed limits imposed on ebikes.

The local University had its week-long spring festivities cancelled due to a few hooligans and they were promptly prosecuted due to the proliferation of real-time video and image uploading to social media internet sites. That makes me wonder if a similar approach could shame road users into behaving civilly, and if we could allow non-polluting ebikes that behaved onto paths? Instead of broad and restrictive laws to address a few hooligans, specific accountability for the hooligans.

 

[veloman]

Well said, gogo. You are spot on.

 

[John in CR]

If we mix with cars it's far safer if we can match their speed and exceed their acceleration. I do agree with Drunkskunk in that we really should have proper lighting, primarily to signal our intentions to others. I constantly have to cut my hand signals short because I need both hands on the bars for braking.

 

[cal3thousand]

If we mix with cars it's far safer if we can match their speed and exceed their acceleration. I do agree with Drunkskunk in that we really should have proper lighting, primarily to signal our intentions to others. I constantly have to cut my hand signals short because I need both hands on the bars for braking.

I've noticed the same thing with my faster bike. The shorter handlebars have less self-correcting tendencies and the fast speeds means you don't have much time/control to signal/brake/maneuver.

I have a 3 way switch, a 12V blinker relay, some leds and a 12V dc-dc converter that I am soon to install.

 

[alsmith]

Whilst I do agree with those sentiments it must be remembered that it is illegal in most places in the world. No if, ands or buts- illegal. If anything goes wrong you're the one in deep shit, whether or not you think it is your fault it *is* your fault in the eyes of the only power- the law- because you should not have been riding.

 

[Chalo]

I have found, like gogo, that the faster I go on a bicycle, the faster car drivers will be going when they pass me, because the must pass even if I'm going the speed limit. I remember a certain downhill run in Seattle where I could reach 55mph regularly (well over the speed limit), but cars would still pass me. Because they have to.

 

[rborger73]

I have found, like gogo, that the faster I go on a bicycle, the faster car drivers will be going when they pass me, because the must pass even if I'm going the speed limit. I remember a certain downhill run in Seattle where I could reach 55mph regularly (well over the speed limit), but cars would still pass me. Because they have to.

I have the opposite around here. Cars will stalk you following while you ride the ripped and tore up white line on the berm. Waving my left hand like I'm trying to bail water out of a boat. If they don't pass sometimes I jam the breaks on pull off on the berm and look back at them like they are idiots. lol

 

[Chalo]

I have found, like gogo, that the faster I go on a bicycle, the faster car drivers will be going when they pass me, because the must pass even if I'm going the speed limit. I remember a certain downhill run in Seattle where I could reach 55mph regularly (well over the speed limit), but cars would still pass me. Because they have to.

I have the opposite around here. Cars will stalk you following while you ride the ripped and tore up white line on the berm. Waving my left hand like I'm trying to bail water out of a boat. If they don't pass sometimes I jam the breaks on pull off on the berm and look back at them like they are idiots. lol

Maybe they're admiring your butt. You can choose to think so, anyway.

 

[rborger73]

I have found, like gogo, that the faster I go on a bicycle, the faster car drivers will be going when they pass me, because the must pass even if I'm going the speed limit. I remember a certain downhill run in Seattle where I could reach 55mph regularly (well over the speed limit), but cars would still pass me. Because they have to.

I have the opposite around here. Cars will stalk you following while you ride the ripped and tore up white line on the berm. Waving my left hand like I'm trying to bail water out of a boat. If they don't pass sometimes I jam the breaks on pull off on the berm and look back at them like they are idiots. lol

Maybe they're admiring your butt. You can choose to think so, anyway.

Could be.. I do have a shapely form from behind..