Electric Bike Rider Dies After Dooring

docnjoj said:
Having cared for ER bike victims and been one myself, the cracks in the helmets suggest that they hit the ground hard. While this is certainly not empirical one of those cracks was in my helmet when I was flipped off my trike (rear wheel lockup) at about 20mph. 6 broken ribs but no discernible head injuries by the ER physician test for concussion. One bike accident victim arrived DOA with massive head injuries, no helmet said the paramedic who wheeled him in. Any helmet is better than none.
otherDoc

See, you want a helmet that effectively compresses and reduces the deceleration forces over time.

Not one that just cracks into pieces when it hits something. The reason why this happens as a bicycle helmet simply can't absorb that much energy. A high quality motorcycle helmet is a magnitude of order more effective than a bicycle helmet, but unfortunately very impractical if you are planning on pedalling.

cal3thousand said:
Sure!!! and football players should just go back to wearing leather caps, because that's safer and they would be more likely to avoid head-on collisions in that case :roll:


[/sarcasm]

Compared to a motorcycle helmet, most bicycle helmets are almost as bad as those leather caps in effectiveness.

If you are just wearing a bicycle helmet, you are still compromising your safety. If we are rational, we need to accept the risks we are taking.
 
Architectonic said:
docnjoj said:
Having cared for ER bike victims and been one myself, the cracks in the helmets suggest that they hit the ground hard. While this is certainly not empirical one of those cracks was in my helmet when I was flipped off my trike (rear wheel lockup) at about 20mph. 6 broken ribs but no discernible head injuries by the ER physician test for concussion. One bike accident victim arrived DOA with massive head injuries, no helmet said the paramedic who wheeled him in. Any helmet is better than none.
otherDoc

See, you want a helmet that effectively compresses and reduces the deceleration forces over time.

Not one that just cracks into pieces when it hits something. The reason why this happens as a bicycle helmet simply can't absorb that much energy. A high quality motorcycle helmet is a magnitude of order more effective than a bicycle helmet, but unfortunately very impractical if you are planning on pedalling.

cal3thousand said:
Sure!!! and football players should just go back to wearing leather caps, because that's safer and they would be more likely to avoid head-on collisions in that case :roll:


[/sarcasm]

Compared to a motorcycle helmet, most bicycle helmets are almost as bad as those leather caps in effectiveness.

If you are just wearing a bicycle helmet, you are still compromising your safety. If we are rational, we need to accept the risks we are taking.

How is wearing a helmet a compromise in safety to not wearing one? I understand that the bicycle helmet is not yet ideal in it's current design, but it's better than a baseball cap. You certainly understand the need for time of deceleration to reduce impulse, so you understand no helmet means no extra time for deceleration of your noodly bits?
 
Helmets can protect against abrasion of the scalp, skull, and brain. What they don't prevent is your brain bouncing around inside your skull.

Riders wearing helmets take more risks as a result of thinking they are 'protected' and other road users subject them to more risks for the same reason. At slower speeds helmet use doesn't reduce injuries/mile.

At 'fast' ebike speeds you may gain a safety edge with a helmet by filtering out wind noise and keeping the wind out of your eyes. Both those things can be accomplished without a helmet, and at the least, should be.
 
entirely conjecture. speed has no bearing on whether a bicyclist should wear a helmet imo. the actual event that involves the helmet is entirely random and you have no way to know how it will evolve. it is safer to ride slow for sure, but you can still die if you do an endo and hit the curb or ram your skull through the corner of the door.

the negligence of opening a door without observing first should be punishable offense imo. equivalent to running a stop sign or red light.
 
Seems to me that e-bikes are primed for this sort of episode, for several reasons. First, they average higher speeds than bicycles, while still using cycle infrastructure and rights of way. Second, they attract less experienced riders who have not accumulated as much road experience as pedal cyclists who can carry similar speeds. Then there's the matter of most e-bikes being awkward-handling, ill-fitting heavy bikes with poor weight distribution.

Taken together, these things could easily result in e-bikers getting into sketchy situations more often (due to speed and inexperience) while being less able to cope with those situations because of their lesser skills and impaired machines, compared to fast pedal cyclists.

The moral of the story for the rest of us is to stay sharp, pay attention, and give ourselves plenty of space and opportunity to change course. Riding in the door zone is not a part of that picture.
 
To helmet or not to helmet. To ride in the door zone or stay away. It throttle it or brake.... decisions, decisions, decisions. My number one defence on the road is to pray. Lately my prayers have been going out to Kali, that she does not take my head off too soon. But we all know she's the vicious bitch she is, and none of us have very much time left. Ahhh, may it be quick and painless (prayer). I'm open to suggestions of sufficient supplication :lol:
 
I'm not sure if being turned into a veggie is painless or not. The Snell corp does testing and one thing the bike helmet has to do is withstand a 6 ft. drop with a head weight in it. They then measure the foam compression and see if fatal G force has been exerted on the brain. All helmets that pass do protect the brain from that type of force due to foam crush. Obviously this is a 1 use situation, but that makes sense. Rather your head and neck survive than the helmet. Consumer Reports also tested bike helmets and weeded out the ones that could kill. That was several years ago and I would hope that helmet tech has progressed. Just my hope, however, but again, empirical proof comes from testing. At least if my Snell approved helmet kills me my family could sue and get rich. Um..........perhaps not a great consolation.
otherDoc
 
docnjoj said:
The Snell corp does testing and one thing the bike helmet has to do is withstand a 6 ft. drop with a head weight in it.

Although testing helmets is a step in the right direction, the weighted bike helmet will be travelling at 14 mph upon impact from a 6 ft drop; this will only protect you from falling off your bike.
 
Architectonic said:
Compared to a motorcycle helmet, most bicycle helmets are almost as bad as those leather caps in effectiveness.

If you are just wearing a bicycle helmet, you are still compromising your safety. If we are rational, we need to accept the risks we are taking.

Even after multiple posts, I still can't tell what your position is, exactly. Are you anti-helmet? Or just anti-bicycle helmet? Or just pro-motorcycle helmet?

You keep repeating how bicycle helmets aren't as good as motorcycle helmets. That's fine. But you seem to ignore the fact that bicycle helmets are still a huge improvement over naked heads. Are you trying to get people to who wear bicycle helmets to forgo a helmet at all because you don't think they work (despite the science that says they do) or are you trying to get everyone to wear a motorcycle helmet?
 
mlt34 said:
Even after multiple posts, I still can't tell what your position is, exactly. Are you anti-helmet? Or just anti-bicycle helmet? Or just pro-motorcycle helmet?

I don't have a black/white 'position'. I'm simply saying that bicycle helmets are only useful in a limited set of circumstances and many people seem to greatly overestimate the safety of bicycle helmets.

I am basing this on the science - it is very simple, compare the amount of energy that a helmet can absorb to that of a range of impacts. First of all, you have to impact in such a way so the helmet is useful. Side and bottom rear impacts and the helmet is mostly useless. Secondly, the amount of energy that the helmet can absorb is rather small and can be fine for say, a child falling off their bike onto the ground but is going to make only a small difference (percentage wise) if you were to say, get hit by a car at 60 km/h.

The science, as done by a university in my city actually showed that a mandatory car helmet law will reduce head injury rates more than a mandatory helmet law for bicycles, yet you don't see anyone arguing for that. Why is that? Is it perhaps that people are too caught up in a preconceived 'position' to discuss all of the other reasons why we might want or not want such laws?
 
Dooring is the black angel looming over all of us.

I've ridden too many miles and know the dangers, but in a major urban environment it is a fantasy to think that you can and will always stay out of the door zone. We get pushed and squeezed around by taxis and inattentive drivers all of the time. Riding downtown Chicago my heart rate gets an extra boost beyond the exercise on nearly every ride, sometimes every 100 meters.

The last time circumstances swirled and I came close to being doored through no fault of my own, I slammed on the brakes and stopped just in front of the guy and gave him the "incredulous" stare. Honestly, the guy just looked back at me for the longest time with no idea why I was staring at him. It just never occurs to non-riders that their two-ton mobile living room can still be deadly when it's parked.

Who knows how long the door will be, or how fast or wide the driver will open it? How will you react? Will you instinctively jump left to clear it in that one millisecond you have to react, and, doing so, jump right in front of a car coming up from behind you?

I've got pretty good situational awareness, been unscathed for many miles, but my number could also come up any time. My awareness is not perfect and the streets are a chaotic place- and I always do my best to stay clear of the door zone and use a mirror to help know what's coming up from my six.

If you are lucky enough to live in a place with wide boulevards where you never come close to a door zone, that's great, but for the rest of us dogman's stated it clearly again- use your electric motor to take a safer route and keep your awareness as high as possible.
 
docnjoj said:
The Snell corp does testing and one thing the bike helmet has to do is withstand a 6 ft. drop with a head weight in it. They then measure the foam compression and see if fatal G force has been exerted on the brain. All helmets that pass do protect the brain from that type of force due to foam crush. [...]
That was several years ago and I would hope that helmet tech has progressed.

It's worth thinking about that a moment. Helmets are tested to a standard that should make a fall from a standing position onto a flat hard surface non-fatal (not the same as non-injurious). That's a relative speed, head to ground, of about 14mph. Compare the closing speeds and surfaces we encounter in our day-to-day life.

Almost all bicycle helmets have left behind the Snell standard in favor of the federal CPSC standard, which is easier to pass and allows the manufacturers to test and certify their own products.

Yes, that has probably resulted in bicycle helmets that are less protective on average than during the Snell standard days. But it probably does not matter, since even Snell certified helmets made no detectable difference whatsoever in cyclist mortality rates as they came into use. It seems that folks are doing a near-perfect job of escalating their risk to fully offset whatever small protection their helmets are providing them.

The equipment that makes a critical difference isn't helmets. It's cars. It's way past time we banished them from our neighborhoods and city centers.
 
Chalo said:
It's way past time we banished them from our neighborhoods and city centers.
Now that's hardcore...

Whenever I get pushed into or near the door zone I open a new sub-thread in my brain that checks for any lit brake lights in the line of cars ahead or the outlines of the heads of any potential drivers sticking above the headrest as seen through the rear windshield. That said, I had a near worst case scenario last fall when a short woman (no head outline) threw open the long door of her convertible until it was fully extended, then turned to make her entrance by planting her high-heels onto the asphalt. I just managed to wiggle past everything, and again, she almost certainly never thought beyond wondering if I noticed that her nails matched her convertible.
 
The thing I am wondering about is how far and deep the investigation will go.
Since a man died I wont be surprised if lawyers and police will be digging deep so I guess they will be putting his bike on one of those dyno tests to see if its 200w or 250w legal etc.
There seem to be a certain amount of dubious 200w ebikes out there like these puribikes which IMO are pushing the limits of what is acceptable.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PURI-eBike-Y-Series-black-48V12Ah-Brand-New-Electric-Motorised-Bike-Scooter-/111035962156?pt=AU_Cycling_New_&hash=item19da42532c&_uhb=1
The man who died was of a senior age, if he was powering down at 40km/h with out even pedaling/with no adrenaline what so ever on a dubious 200watter when he got doored I could imagine it being a bit too much for him.

When I watch "Cops" or "Drugs Inc" etc on cable TV its kind of funny to see all these yankees riding around past cop cars with just baseball caps on without a worry in the world, I can assure you no one does that in Melbourne AU, everyones got helmets and there normally pretty chunky helmets.

I could be over thinking, maybe its all wrapped up and over.
 
TheBeastie said:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PURI-eBike-Y-Series-black-48V12Ah-Brand-New-Electric-Motorised-Bike-Scooter-/111035962156?pt=AU_Cycling_New_&hash=item19da42532c&_uhb=1

200W? Yea, I'm sure this 48V ebike has a 4 amp limit on its controller ;)
 
TheBeastie said:
The thing I am wondering about is how far and deep the investigation will go.

I bet it won't go very far at all, most people have better things to do than dig in the dirt.

Most cops don't want to be tied in a court case that goes no-where for years.

If the guy was riding what looks like a bicycle, at bicycle speeds, then what does it matter? It doesn't.

Oh and lastly, if the guy wasn't wearing a helmet, you can bet that the cops would have made a big deal of it. That is one thing that they care about here in Australia...
 
Architectonic said:
Oh and lastly, if the guy wasn't wearing a helmet, you can bet that the cops would have made a big deal of it. That is one thing that they care about here in Australia...


It's like that in California too as far as I have noticed. A person riding an illegal scooter with no license could go a decade without incident as long as they are wearing a helmet.
 
johnnyz383 said:
I have fallen, broken bones had bad drivers hit me, etc but because i was wearing a helmet, i did not once get any kind of head injury.....

Lots of folks who don't wear protective hats have had the same experience. Our reflexes and instincts are very effective in protecting our heads.

your crazy not to be wearing one on an ebike or homemade bike.

Maybe your own e-bikes and homebuilt bikes are a menace to you, but not everyone's are. In any case, you're about three times more likely in North America to be killed by a car while walking than while riding a bicycle, per amount of exposure. Most people don't wear a helmet to walk (even in wet, icy, or steep conditions), so they should probably keep a certain perspective about it when they cycle. Or else they should helmet up to walk outdoors, shower, or climb stairs.

Bicycle helmets are not really about managing risk. They are more about creating perceived risk that isn't there, for the profits of helmet sellers and the egos of recreational cyclists alike. In fact, it's people wearing helmets to ride bicycles that has promoted the perception of cycling as a dangerous activity. It's really quite safe (even though it doesn't always feel that way), and people in places like Holland and Denmark know that because they actually ride a lot. You have to look around a while before you'll see someone wearing a helmet there, and when you do, it's usually part of a costume involving stretchy clothes and the logos of racing teams they don't belong to.

In the USA, most people don't cycle-- partly because they regard it as unusually risky. This is a self-fulfilling fantasy to some degree, both because it radically reduces the number of cyclists on the road, and because it lets drivers off the hook for their responsibility to mitigate the risks that they impose upon everybody else.

One of the best things you can do in North America to promote cycling safety is the same thing they do in the places where cycling is safer-- ride for transportation, in normal clothes and without protective gear, at a comfortable level of effort. The more normal people we have riding normally, the more others will see it as a viable option. Then we'll not only establish a greater presence on the road and in the minds of motorists, but we'll get more cycling infrastructure to make riding safer and more pleasant. It's happening right now in Austin and it can happen where you are, too.

E-bikes can definitely help with the "normal clothes" and "comfortable level of effort" elements, even if the way they look often works against the "normal people" angle.
 
No surprise the helmet fight lives again.

I had a guy try to door me today, perfectly timed, no way I'd have had time to swerve. I simply refused, as always, to ride that close to a parked car. That easy.

The funny thing today was, the door that opened was on a cop car, complete with bike on the rack in back. :lol: Had I not been riding safe, I'd have been doored by a cop. A BICYCLE COP.

Priceless, seeing the :shock: face on him, when he popped that door I missed by 6 inches. Dumbass. So tempting to circle back, and give that fool a little lecture.
 
dogman said:
No surprise the helmet fight lives again.

I had a guy try to door me today, perfectly timed, no way I'd have had time to swerve. I simply refused, as always, to ride that close to a parked car. That easy.

The funny thing today was, the door that opened was on a cop car, complete with bike on the rack in back. :lol: Had I not been riding safe, I'd have been doored by a cop. A BICYCLE COP.

Priceless, seeing the :shock: face on him, when he popped that door I missed by 6 inches. Dumbass. So tempting to circle back, and give that fool a little lecture.

I wish you would :D
 
Know the best thing about my helmet? Reflective tape. Have to remember that increased visibility are part of an extreme defensive riding strategy. That and my Cree back mounted LED, Choosing the most safe route, situational awareness, keeping a distance from cars, whether parked or moving, etc., etc. I do intend trying to stay whole & alive.
 
mlt34 said:
Ykick said:
these past couple years I always do a ride cam.
I've been wanting to setup an automatic ride cam like all those russian dash cams but haven't found a good solution for an ebike that is no-fuss enough. The problem with GoPros and the like is that you still have to take the time to turn it on and off and erase the card when it gets full and such. I'd really love an automatic setup that just runs off a DC-DC converter on my bike.

Try Mobiuus HD action cam. It's 50 euros and has all those features you are asking for (just buy the optional power plug)
It is super small, can be mounted also upside down, has optional waterproof case and is programmed via computer.
Then there's a newcomer with similar looks to Mobius, the Innovv C2

Both can be found in Ebay
 
Offroader said:
Are bicycle helmets really debatable if they are useful or not?

Why would there not be an open question about them? They clearly have some measurable effect in the test lab, but over the last 30 years we've gone from 0% to about 50% usage rates, with no significant change at all in injury or mortality rates among cyclists. That's worth questioning and discussing.
 
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