Electric Bike without Pedals

[autobike]

For theoretical purposes (until my budget expands), I'm thinking of a bike that serves as a fully electric vehicle.

Bike frame, forks, front and rear hub motors, dual controllers with a single throttle, and no gears, chains, shifters, or pedals (replace with pegs). If you remove the pedals it no longer qualifies as a "bike", so what is it? An electric scooter? Assuming a 48v battery, the top speed is still around 30mph.

Here's an example of local laws regarding scooters.

http://www.motor-scooters-guide.com/texas-scooter-laws.html

You need registration and insurance (can't be that much for a scooter - registration in TX for example is a measly $30/yr). It only references gas powered scooters though, so I don't know how the license endorsements would apply (not a setback for me personally since I already have a class M).

Now, if this vehicle has a top speed of 30mph and is classified as a scooter, can you take it on public roads just like I can with a regular bike?

Or, would it the thing be classified as one of those neighborhood electric vehicles, not legal for public road use?

I did some searching and didn't see anyone who's built something like this before. I was hoping to get a good discussion going on the subject.

 

[dogman dan]

Depends on where you live. Here in NM, you'd be an illegal vehicle for street. In general, in the usa once you remove the pedals you are illegal, or at least, not a bicycle. Since so many of us already run illegal power and speed, we often leave the pedals on so we can at least appear legal if not caught red handed going 40 mph.

To get a plate on an ev, it's very helpful to start with a vehicle that has a vin number to start with. Then it's just a conversion, not creating a vehicle, and it has all the dot crap on it it needs. Not saying it can't be done to build a legal vehicle from scratch, just that you will have to jump through plenty of hoops at dmv.

 

[nuevomexicano]

Why exactly don't you want pedals? You don't have to use them if you don't want.

I too have a motorcycle endorsement and have plenty of experience riding motorcycles, mopeds, and scooters. I have a 50cc scooter (with plate because it goes faster than moped speed, which is part of the law in New Mexico). I also have a 48V bike that nears 30mph, well, closer to 28 tops since its a geared motor. I'm happy that it looks like a bike, but rides like a moped if need be. I get to ride the bike lanes and trails on the electric bike. But I would rightly be hassled by bikers, harassed by drivers I pass as they're stopped in traffic, and ticketed by cops for riding in the bike lanes on a moped or scooter. Also, I can freely park at any bike rack, take it on the bus rack if it breaks down, occasionally cut across a sidewalk, and overall avoid the hassle of a moped or scooter. There's apparently no law in TX (that appears to be where you're at) that you can't ride a bicycle at 30mph.

Just get yourself a single speed bike and don't pedal if you don't need to. If this wasn't going to be your daily ride, say a track machine, then you might be wise to strip it down to a simple frame. But daily rides are better as bikes.

Also, why two hub motors? You can get to 30mph with just one.

 

[nuevomexicano]

Depends on where you live. Here in NM, you'd be an illegal vehicle for street. In general, in the usa once you remove the pedals you are illegal, or at least, not a bicycle. Since so many of us already run illegal power and speed, we often leave the pedals on so we can at least appear legal if not caught red handed going 40 mph.

To get a plate on an ev, it's very helpful to start with a vehicle that has a vin number to start with. Then it's just a conversion, not creating a vehicle, and it has all the dot crap on it it needs. Not saying it can't be done to build a legal vehicle from scratch, just that you will have to jump through plenty of hoops at dmv.

New Mexico is actually easier compared to other states for the build your own motorcycle or scooter or moped if you don't have a VIN. But its far from hassle free as you need to get a bunch of DOT approved items like tires, brake lights, mirror, head light, etc... Bicycle mirrors or head lights won't work, they have to DOT approved and that costs more and fits poorer on a bike frame. Definitely get a scooter or moped frame with a VIN if you want to start from scratch. But the OP said money was tight and the idea of building a moped from a bicycle is far from cheap.

 

[amberwolf]

Generally people don't build 'em without pedals because they are not *any* class of vehicle in many places, and thus illegal to have on the roads (or sidewalks).

Missouri is the only place off the top of my head that doesnt' care if you have pedals or not.

But many places, if you wanna register it as a non-bicycle-class vehicle, it's gotta have a VIN, and getting your own VIN for a custom vehicle is difficult at best (impossible some places, for all practical purposes). So to get a VIN to register it, you gotta hack up a frame from something that started with not only a VIN, but an active non-salvage title, so you can keep the portion of the frame with the VIN *and* whatever part is necessary to comply with any local customized-vehicle laws. Then you are officially whatever kind of vehicle that VIN is from, too, and must legally meet all of the requirements of that vehicle class.


Basically it is most likely easier to just convert an existing motorcycle into an electric motorcycle if you don't want pedals, with as much customization as you need and your laws allow.


If you wanna have an electric bicycle by legal definitions, you'll have to follow whatever local rules you have there. If that's Texas, then this page:
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/docs/TN/htm/TN.551.htm
and this page:
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/docs/TN/htm/TN.541.htm
list some requirements of a bicycle. In a two-minute search I couldn't locate registration or other requirements for bicycles, electric or otherwise.

AFAIK in most places, a motorcycle-class driver's license automatically nets you the ability to ride any other smaller verisons of same, including mopeds/scooters.


All that said, I'd also ask the same questions as nuevomexicano, regarding "why no pedals" and "why two motors", just for curiosity.

There's apparently no law in TX (that appears to be where you're at) that you can't ride a bicycle at 30mph.

But to do so, it must require application of human power:

(24) "Electric bicycle" means a bicycle that:

(A) is designed to be propelled by an electric motor, exclusively or in combination with the application of human power;

(B) cannot attain a speed of more than 20 miles per hour without the application of human power; and

(C) does not exceed a weight of 100 pounds.

from http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/docs/TN/htm/TN.541.htm above.

 

[autobike]

The idea is to build an electric vehicle - not just convert a bike. A sleek and lightweight EV has no need for a greasy chain and pedals. A bike frame provides a perfect platform for it. Lightweight and plenty of room for batteries. No need for the chain, all that gearing and shifters. I was thinking 2 motors would provide enough startup torque without pedal assisted power.

It seems rather confounding that a bike has all the requirements to be a legal street vehicle. But if you power it by a motor instead of human power, it is no longer street legal. And if dogman is right, it would be very difficult to make it legal. Yet an electric scooter, which is the exact same thing, is legal? Hmm.

"Why exactly don't you want pedals? You don't have to use them if you don't want. "

True, but the idea I'm putting here is to build a real electric vehicle from a bike frame. Why have non functioning pedals, and/or why have a bunch of equipment attached to the bike that isn't used?

 

[autobike]

"Bicycle mirrors or head lights won't work, they have to DOT approved and that costs more and fits poorer on a bike frame"

The equipment is perfectly acceptable if it has pedals. Remove the pedals and it is no longer road worthy? Makes no sense :lol:

There are plenty of motorcycles that have been converted to electric, but that's a heck of a lot of weight to be pushing around with a pack of lithium batteries.

 

[vanilla ice]

By CA law you would be a moped whether or not you had pedals if you're at 30mph, technically.

 

[AussieJester]

If you can Getty away With it, as far as the law is concerned go for it, definitely makes the whole chain alignment issue go away, if your doing a non frock build that is...

KiM

 

[amberwolf]

It really is strange about the whole vehicle classification system. One of the strangest to me is that if I am riding a bicycle without a motor assist of any kind, or am just pedalling without any motor assist running, here in AZ I can go as fast as the speed limit on the road, whatever that happens to be. But if I am pedalling *and* using the motor, I can't go faster than 20MPH even if the speed limit is 40.

Some places (like Texas) still allow faster than 20MPH if you *are* pedalling, but only 20 if you are *not* pedalling.


I guess you just have to decide:

--Do you care about being legal on the roads, or does it not matter what happens if someone decides they don't like your vehicle?

--If you care, then you have to decide what type of vehicle you want it to be, and pick the set of rules you want the vehicle to abide by, and build it to those.

We can help either way, but the results of the first choice could eventually end up with an impounded bike and some expensive tickets, so keep that in mind.

 

[nuevomexicano]

The idea is to build an electric vehicle - not just convert a bike....

OK, so you're probably better off to start with a moped (has a VIN, has the DOT stuff, is cheap to register in TX) rather than bicycle.

...A sleek and lightweight EV has no need for a greasy chain and pedals. A bike frame provides a perfect platform for it. Lightweight and plenty of room for batteries. No need for the chain, all that gearing and shifters. I was thinking 2 motors would provide enough startup torque without pedal assisted power....

There are shaft drive and belt drive bicycles. So grease need not be a bike problem. Again, there are also plenty of single speed bicycles, so you need not have gears either. Finally, if sleek and lightweight is your goal, then start with a trike and throw a functional shell on it.

...It seems rather confounding that a bike has all the requirements to be a legal street vehicle. But if you power it by a motor instead of human power, it is no longer street legal. And if dogman is right, it would be very difficult to make it legal. Yet an electric scooter, which is the exact same thing, is legal? Hmm.

"Why exactly don't you want pedals? You don't have to use them if you don't want. "

True, but the idea I'm putting here is to build a real electric vehicle from a bike frame. Why have non functioning pedals, and/or why have a bunch of equipment attached to the bike that isn't used?

You're getting confounded for no good reason. If you start with a bike frame then you do need pedals, but you don't need head lights, brake lights, DOT tires and all the rest. Starting with a bike means legally needing less, which is what you seem to be hung up on. If you start with a moped or scooter frame you legally need more, but that DOT approved stuff is likely already part of the vehicle. You can do away with the pedals, but you need all the rest. That's the rules. Either break them or not, but don't act confounded. Anyway, you seem to have answered your own question...buy an electric push scooter.

Also, I find it a little insulting that you consider an electric bike not a "real electric vehicle".

 

[dogman dan]

Depending on where you live, the cops may care a lot less about all this than you think. Only you can be the judge of this. This is why many of us here at the sphere have illegally fast ebikes. If you look as much as possible like a normal bike, and don't ride like a jerk, the cops are pretty likely to ignore you up to about 30 mph. If you want much faster, I tend to advise people to just go buy a small motorcycle anyway. It's good to be insured when you hit something at 40 mph or faster.

Read some build threads, you don't need dual motors to be fast or reliable. Most of the better quality direct drive motors are quite capable of running for a long enough time at 2000 watts. That usualy gets you a bike that beats cars off the line, and has a top speed around 35 mph. Much faster than that, if you do very long rides, you start running into the limitations of bicycles. Rims start braking down, you need the best possible brakes, etc.

In my opinion, the sweet spot for ebikes is around 25-35 mph top speeds. They can always be ridden slower if you want, but have some giddy up if you need it. But not quite so much giddy up that you break stuff constantly. You can easily look legal, and ride slower while faux pedaling when you see the cops. Then when on a deserted street or in traffic where you need to, still let er rip.

Oh, and on the greasy chain. Who still uses oil on em? Sure, I might wd40 a really rusty one when I first get a fleabike. But in use, it's silicone for sure.

 

[nuevomexicano]

...Now, if this vehicle has a top speed of 30mph and is classified as a scooter, can you take it on public roads just like I can with a regular bike?

Or, would it the thing be classified as one of those neighborhood electric vehicles, not legal for public road use?

I did some searching and didn't see anyone who's built something like this before. I was hoping to get a good discussion going on the subject.

Less you think I'm just hassling you about not wanting pedals...here's an answer to one specific question you have:

It would probably be classified as a moped or a motorcycle rather than a Neighborhood Electric Vehicle. That's because it would have 2 (or even three) wheels. The NEV classification seems to be applied mostly to 4 wheelers, like those GEM golf cart looking things; while electric 2 or 3 wheelers, like the Zap Zebra, are more often built to be sold as cycles. Both routes get around full car safety standards and regulations, just in different ways.

Also, you are wrong that NEV are not legal for public road use. They are perfectly legal when they abide by federal and state restrictions, which more or less mean sticking to roads slower than 45mph and 30 mph top speeds.

As for advice, you state you want less regulation, lower cost, and less of what you deem as non-essential components. The NEV requires a lot of components you might deem non-essential and, at least compared to the TX moped registration fee, cost more to register and insure. Of course, a bicycle is less than either of the above.

 

[autobike]

Very interesting information here!

So I guess the idea is that building a 30mph powered bike (pedals or no pedals) is just illegal. Though it might "look" legal with pedals still attached, it still isn't and can easily be impounded if caught. You need to build a custom vehicle and not just register it but get a VIN, dot approved equipment, etc.

I guess the question is whether it is possible to create a custom electric motorcycle. What kind of process would that require? There are kit builders who build custom cars from tube frames with ICE power, so I wonder if the process would be the same for a 2 wheel EV builder.

 

[nuevomexicano]

Very interesting information here!

So I guess the idea is that building a 30mph powered bike (pedals or no pedals) is just illegal. Though it might "look" legal with pedals still attached, it still isn't and can easily be impounded if caught. You need to build a custom vehicle and not just register it but get a VIN, dot approved equipment, etc.

I guess the question is whether it is possible to create a custom electric motorcycle. What kind of process would that require? There are kit builders who build custom cars from tube frames with ICE power, so I wonder if the process would be the same for a 2 wheel EV builder.

No, a 30 mph bike is not "just illegal"!

Unlike some countries the US has no national speed rule for legality. The regulation you see at the federal level is a consumer safety issue for commercial builders and sellers of bikes, not a road law for users. There might state laws about what's a bicycle vs. motorcycle or local regulations about using an electric bike on a bike trail, but that's far from "just illegal" everywhere and in every instance. Remember, as Amberwolf pointed out, laws about registration and classification of vehicles are state-by-state. In TX your electric bike can do 30mph, but you need to be assisting the motor with pedaling.

Even if you live somewhere in the US that has a top speed limit on electric bikes, you can still look into building one into a motorcycle or moped. There are tons of home built and many commercial electric motorcycle manufacturers. Its just that, as many have pointed out, its neither particularly cheap or easy or minimalist. There is an entire subsection of this discussion board about that:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=10

A good way for you to cut through the information is to decide whether you're building a custom, one-off vehicle yourself or whether you're actually concerned with being a full-blown manufacturer to sell to others. You initially sounded like you were building it yourself for yourself. That makes things much, much easier.

 

[autobike]

Yes converting a motorcycle looks like a -lot- of work, whereas there are basically plug and play kits for bikes.

 

[sangesf]

How about telling us what state you live in?
And we'll go from there..

 

[ChristianR]

I also use an electric bike without pedals : I have modified a Dirtsurfer like this one

with a 800W hub motor.

But in France it is not legal to use it on roads, as a "normal" e-bike.

According to the french law, an electric bike must follow these following rules :
1/ A small motor only, less than 250Watts.
2/ The motor must stop after a maximum speed of 25 km/h (you can run faster, but without the motor)
3/ You must have 2 pedals on your bike, and you are not allowed to use a thumb throttle...
The motor must only be an "aid for pedaling" . So I don't use it in town :wink:

 

[dogman dan]

I may be mistaken, but Texas has it's ebike law written pretty close to matching that federal consumer product law. ( thank god NM doesn't)

So I think you can build a bike that has 20 mph maximum speed on the flat surface. Then it can be ridden up to the posted speed limit. So pedaling up more speed, or riding faster downhill is allowed, up to the speed limit of that road.

Unfortunatley, in the real world, it's quite difficult to add much more than 2-3 mph more speed by pedaling, unless you are Lance A.

The practical compromise is to build a bike capable of 25-30 mph, and ride it 20 mph in places you should be slowing down anyway. But be able to let er rip when out in open country. Most practical bike routes for cycling safe in a big city are 25 mph posted streets anyway. But you can still have that bit of speed avaliable when you really need it.

So it ends up like this, half your ride is on a 25 mph street, where you feel safe to go 30 without cops knowing. The other half, near the school zone or college campus nazi cops you need to go 20 mph anyway. Not really a problem till you want motorcycle speeds. Then you are better off to just get a nice 125 honda that will be far cheaper to operate than any high watt ebike.

 

[amberwolf]

Well, technically it doesnt' say that all the power for beyond 20MPH must come from human power, only that human power must be applied in order to go beyond 20MPH. So...you could set up a limiter of some type that is simply enabled anytime you are not pedalling, and disabled if you are. Then technically it does require human power to be applied to go beyond 20MPH. :lol:

All it would take is some type of sensor to detect pedals are rotating; even a reed switch on the frame or derailer cage, and a magnet on a sprocket or the cranks would work. Then that sensor pulse output goes to a 555 timer setup in monostable mode. Every pulse triggers the 555 output state to remain in the non-default state for a very short period, whcih then runs to the speed-limiter wire on the controller, if you have one that is designed to limit to 20MPH or less when a wire is not grounded (or whatever). An op-amp integrator circuit with a comparator on it's output could also be used instead of hte 555, but the 555 is probably easier to setup and cheaper cuz it's one chip and a couple resistors and a cap.

So if you're not pedalling, the 555 doesnt trigger and doesn't disable the speed limiting on the controller. If you are pedalling, it does trigger and disable the speed limiting.

Then under the letter of the law, you can go with motor assist doing all the real work up to whatever speed you want to go to. Presumably given the lack of any other defining speed limits, you could ride the bike up to the speed limit of the road you are on. Just dont' stop pedalling. :lol:



Alternately, just set it up as pedelec+throttle, so throttle controls your speed but it must be pedalled to oeprate at all, then you can fake pedal all teh time just to keep it going, and use throttle to control speed for everythign up to posted limits.

 

[dogman dan]

I'm sure any Texas judge will understand that immediately. I was still pedaling my 40 mph ebike sir.

But in fact, it may work on the cops. They see you churning away at the pedals, they may not really notice you are doing 30 mph. Some lycras do it, so why not you.

 

[sk8norcal]

autobike,

its been done before,
ideally, a frame designed around no pedals would open up space in the bottom bracket area for batteries or motor....

http://jennwork.homelinux.net/drupal6/node/6