Electric Delivery Bike Project -help with motor+batts needed

[Tomasz151]

Hello everyone.

This is my first post on the forum. I am completely new to electric vehicles but i have been doing some research and think i have a SLIGHTLY better grasp of them now. I am into cars and bikes but my girlfriends father has an enfield electric car and a converted electric fiat 126 (i have two petrol 126's).

I have just started a major final year university project designing an electric delivery scooter and i think i will require some help?

What i hope to achieve is a delivery scooter much the same as a pizza delivery scooter but with an inbuilt carrying comparment (it will not just be for food). I would like it to have a resonable range (maybe 30 miles) and ok speed BUT and this is a big but and may not be feasable. I want it to be classified as a bicycle and therefore not require licence etc (a bit like those fun2ride mopeds although i cant believe they can achieve 30mph - anyone ridden one?).

So the questions i have are:
Is it possible to have a legal motor above 200w if it has a limiter for road use?
What kind of batteries should i use - bearing in mind i would like charging to be remote from the bike - like a cordless drill. Are LiFePO4 batteries still too expensive?
What kind of watt hours should i aim for from the batteries?
Any suggestions for motors?

I will be building a working prototype which i will keep you updated on but i will be using a second hand electric moped for the base of this as my time is limited. I may upgrade the batteries though.

Sorry to ask so much on my first post but i hope i will be able to contribute further with build pics etc as the project progresses.

 

[smithinparis]

Welcome Tomasz151!
You've come to the right place to answer your questions.
Regarding legalities, where are you writing from - every areas have completely different laws regarding e-bikes, and it would be important to know what laws you're trying to comply with.
While you're posting here, also check out www.ebikes.ca. The guy who created the website has great tips, guidelines and details to help you decide what battery capacity you need and other details of the sort.

 

[Link]

So the questions i have are:
Is it possible to have a legal motor above 200w if it has a limiter for road use?
What kind of batteries should i use - bearing in mind i would like charging to be remote from the bike - like a cordless drill. Are LiFePO4 batteries still too expensive?
What kind of watt hours should i aim for from the batteries?
Any suggestions for motors?

Guessing by the 200W limit, I'm guessing you live in either Australia or...uh...was it the UK that also had a 200W cutoff? IDK, point it, check your local laws out. The variation between place to place is ridiculous.

For cheap initial cost, SLA. LiFePO's taking over for anything even slightly utilitarian for the simple fact that it's better in virtually every way, including long-term cost.

NiMH is still somewhat viable. It doesn't last as long as LiFe and isn't much cheaper. NiMH's cousin, NiCd, is capable of dumping a fair bit of power and is very light per joule, but they're bigger than LiFe and NiMH for an equal amount of stored energy.

30 miles at 30mph is a fair bit to ask for. I'd guess at 1kWh minimum. Exactly how much you need will be dependant on weight, aerodynamics, and (to a somewhat lesser extent) efficiency of the motor you use.

For a scooter, I'd go with a regular soup-can style motor, and put in some gears if you can manage it. The biggest benefit, IMO, of a hub (stealth) is lost on a scooter.

BBL, break's over.

 

[Dee Jay]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuYgmyorZrc

 

[dogman dan]

Wherever you are, in the real world the customer will want to be able to remove the 200 watt limiter, or put it back when talking to a cop, so design that featue so its easy to add aftermarket. Maybe just limit with a cycleanalyst. I would think in a heavier vehicle , 10 mph might be top speed at 200 watts. Or less. I would say the best bet may be a chain drive arangement, using a motor that has a fan to cool it. Continuous duty for hub motors is not so good unless it's very cool outside. Lithium is still pretty expensive, but ah for ah, prices are coming down to close to nimh prices. If packs are routinely switched out, lead acid will be too heavy for that. Maybe scavenged prius batteries could be the power supply? You won't need high discharge cells if the pack is large enough, so even 2c prismatic lifepo4 would work. One thing it will need is good suspension so the pizza doesnt arrive all stuck to the lid of the box, or jammed into the corner.

 

[Tomasz151]

Thank you for all your help! Im slightly confused (and amused) by the peewee video!

I live in the UK (Brighton and Norwich when not at uni). I have emailed the DVLA to ask about having a limiter but i am not sure i will get a response. It would certainly have a limiter switch which is what the 'fun2ride' mopeds have. If i get no response from the dvla i think i will stick with the idea of having a larger motor and a limiter.

I emailed pingbattery enquiring about lifepo4 and they recommended a 36v20ah pack for my requirements.

I am still watching a few bikes on ebay for a suitable project vehicle and will keep you informed when i get one!

 

[Dee Jay]

Im slightly confused (and amused) by the peewee video!

Hi Tomas,

It's just my way, as a perpetual Noob , of welcoming a fellow Noob!

I think I speak for everyone here that we all L O V E our ebikes so I strongly feel that owning a copy of Pee Wee's Big Adventure is a requirement with all EBike ES members. And watching it *at least* 100 times with no commercial interruptions nor restroom breaks (without soiling your shorts in laughter) is the rite of passage. That, and oodles pictures of your bike and its progress to share.

Who's with me?

Now if I can just get past the shorts part ...

J

 

[etard]

Welcome Tomas,
200w is not worth the added weight of going electric, so throw that out the window. Bosch 36 volt toolpacks are what you want for modular removal and charging. You can get 4 plus a charger for about $250 shipped to USA, I don't know how this would add up for you though. I guess the best bet would be the pings, a 48 volt 10 ah pack should get you 30 MPH. Can you post a pic of the bike you plan to use? I think a trike might be best to get all that weight around town though. Good luck, we like pics too.

 

[Tomasz151]

Hi Guys
I have not seen Pee Wee's Big Adventure but i will be sure to watch it asap!! hehe.

Progress with the project:
Still searching for a bike - something like this and this one isnt too far from me. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110361224740 . I need to get a cheap one as i am going to be chopping it up and as a student i only have limited funds at the moment. If all goes well maybe i will modify it further in the future (motor/battery upgrades etc) although what i would really like to do is convert an old scooter like a vespa or something. For now i will be leaving the motor and concentrating on the body. I may change the battery though.

I am interested in the Bosch packs but i think having four seperate batteries is not user friendly enough.

I am putting together a visual mock up of a delivery vespa so i will post pics when done.

 

[Tomasz151]

oh and with regards to that scooter on ebay, i am not sure what the motor is but i have asked them. It looks like it doesn not have pedals so would not be legally classified as an electric bicycle.

 

[Tomasz151]

Completely off topic i was just thinking how cool it would be to do an electric 'shopper' bike with a nice powerful motor (and no pedals). you could put the batteries and controller in the rear basket http://www.weemonkey.com/images/Raleigh20.jpg
Let me know if someone has done this.

Also i was looking on http://www.goldenmotor.com/ and it seems pretty resonable, has anyone had any experience with this company?

 

[etard]

Hey, that scooter looks like a pretty good deal, but probably a no go without pedals. However, in the US it doesn't have to have pedals, but most of those electric scooters have pedals that you can take off. Anyway, Ggoodrum has a folder bicycle that is probably the best I have seen. The frames really seem to lend themselves to mounting things to. He uses the Cyclone kit, which powers through the bike's gears to get optimal speed and torque. I have heard lots of bad things about Goldenmotors. You might want to spend a day or two here searching through all the threads. "Manufacturers to avoid" comes to mind. :wink:

 

[Tomasz151]

Thanks i will bear that in mind.
Yeah i was thinking that i would keep the pedals now even if they are just to rest my feet on! This is a project for the future anyway. Need to concentrate on the university delivery scooter project for now.

 

[Tomasz151]

Hi guys

Well i have the bike! £175 delivered. Apparently there is a problem with it but i will wait until it is charged to find out. In the listing it had no indication of the power of the motor. In the instructions it says 800w! So assuming they are the correct instructions for the bike it should be pretty nippy. The batteries are 48v20ah lead acid so its not lacking in that department either.

Next job is to start stripping the rear end so i can work out how i am going to build the delivery section.

I built a scale model of a vespa to demonstrate the kind of thing i had in mind, i realise the seat is too small etc.

and here is the scooter i will be working on

I will update later today when i see if it is working or not.

 

[Tomasz151]

Hi guys
Quick update:

I have decided to do an ebike conversion as a tester bike for my project (and for fun). I am going to convert a raleigh stowaway like this one http://www.weblogcartoons.com/cb/raleigh0309-2.jpg .
I plan to put a 700w motor on the rear hub and use the SLA batteries i already have for the other bike to power it for the mean time. I will prob go for a golden motor kit as i have very little money at the mo and live in the UK so see no advantages of buying from the US. I think i will get a 750w 36v kit. Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts/advice on this idea.
I am going to look at a bike tomorrow morning. Hope it ok. I like the retro look and think i could get and nice carrier for the back rack to store the batteries in. Maybe an old fruit box or something but modified to keep the water and thieves out!

Thanks in advance,
Tomasz

 

[Tomasz151]

I got the bike. Its just the same as the one in the above pic! Any ideas about the motor?

 

[Tomasz151]

Here is a pic of the test bike

 

[Miles]

Hi Tomasz,

Jozzer (Steve) is just down the road from you at Peacehaven:
http://www.jozzbikes.co.uk/PHEV/electric_motorbikes/conversions.php

 

[Tomasz151]

Wow,
I didn't know that. I think a visit my be in order. Thanks!

 

[ngocthach1130]

Hey i have something similar. It does reach 30mph. But with such small wheel and wheel base it feels like riding a rabid squirrel. Small bumps on the road cause it to skip side to side a bit. It's scary. Image in that post. Close to the end of that page.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=235&p=74993#p74993

 

[Tomasz151]

Hi
Your bike looks good. I need to make some extra mods to mine. I will be getting new tyres and tubes and prob upgrading the brakes although the current ones are suprisingly good. I have fitted a fruit box on the back to keep it stealthy. This will house the batteries and controller but the rear rack and box need reinforcing first. I ordered my motor from ebay and im hoping it will arrive next week.
What is your range with the dewalt pack? I think mine is going to be rather scary to ride!
Here is another pic with the box still unmodified -

Back to the other project -

here is a pic of the back of the scooter modded to fit the delivery box section. I still need to work out the size and shape of this. I got some extra batteries free from a local golf caddy service centre. I can fit all of the batteries under the seat.

 

[dnmun]

that seems reasonable. try to go as fast as you can though. don't let them make you stick to 30kph or 200W. revolt, go right to 48V!!!

 

[Tomasz151]

Hehehe im looking forward to testing the bicycles top speed!

For the bicycle i have gone for the 750w36v. Im pretty sure most bobbys wont know the difference between a 200w and a 750w motor!

The scooter has 800w48v

 

[Tomasz151]

Ok, I have got to a point where i need to work out what motor and batteries the delivery bike would need to have.

Speaking to delivery riders i have decided that i would like the bike to have at least a 50 mile range. They also said that they are put under pressure to carry out a lot of deliveries in a short space of time. This means that it cant be really slow. It would be good if it could go 50mph as an absolute maximum. What do you think would be the best motor/battery set up for this? The zero s bike says it has 58??v 70ah. Does anyone know what the power of the motor is? http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s-specs.php

I know i want to use LiFePO4 batteries but i am not sure what V or ah.

I need to show the calculations to back up my choice so can anyone help me with the math. I should take into account weight and possibly the friction from the wheels.

Oh and has anyone seen this - its awesome http://www.ridemission.com/ - it has been designed by Yves Behar, an industrial designer.