Joseph C. said:
Great another person who demonises Wolves. You fall to mention that the article you linked to says that the wolf population is also declining. I'm sure it will reach a balance.
People have some weird, unjustified fear of wolves and like to make them out to be some sort of sinister creatures. There has never, ever been a single human fatality ever caused by a wolf since the last one hundred and fifty years. Elephants kill far more people than almost any other type of animal, some actively go out hunting for people to kill (seeing as they are so intelligent, with huge brains, - I would nearly put it in the bracket of murder), yet you don't hear many calling them evil (I'm not either).
As for losing cattle - that's life. We have a habit of forgetting we're not the only animals on the planet. I'm from a farming background where losing livestock to predators is natural yet we don't go trying to eradicate all the foxes in Ireland.
Who is demonizing wolves? Who is causing the problem the wolves or the ignorant people who let loose CANADIAN GREY wolves that are NOT the same sub-species that was eradicated by equally ignorant fools in the past?
The final EIS opened the way for re-introduction, but not without opposition. The Sierra Club and National Audubon Society opposed the re-introduction plan on the grounds that Experimental populations were not protected enough once the wolves were outside the park. The Farm Bureau's of Idaho, Wyoming and Montana opposed the plan on the basis that the wrong subspecies of wolf—Canis lupus occidentalis (Mackenzie Valley Wolf (Canada)) instead of Canis lupus irremotus (Northern Rocky Mountain Gray Wolf) was selected for reintroduction. These objections were overcome and in January 1995, the process of physically reintroducing wolves into Yellowstone began.[17]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_wolves_in_Yellowstone
If you read a little closer, you will see I am for having the wolves and ranchers and everyone else get along.
I have not called for the elimination of wolves or any animal, even though this isn't even a sub-species of wolf that ever historically lived near Yellowstone .
Taking a species of wolf that is not native, has no natural competition and letting it loose and refusing to control it for the better part of a decade is nothing short of criminal.
What will the wolves eat once they kill off the Elk & Deer? What sense does it make to bring a MUCH more dominate and powerful wolf to an ecosystem that it never existed in?
It would be like finding Kodiak Island Brown Bears to replace normal sized Brown Bears because you are worried about the lack of average North American Brown Bears in their native habitat.
Please don't try to compare foxes to wolves. Have you ever seen wolves in action besides the "mutual of omaha" or other sugar coated versions?
There is a nasty habit that is rather unique in effectiveness to wolves in the sport killing or "surplus" killing it is sometimes called. Foxes and Coyotes never posed the same threat, if they did, I'm sure the same ignorant fools that annihilated the wolves in the American West would have killed them off too.
All predators have some degree of "surplus kills" however, none have ever so radically affected ecosystems in the American West as wolves. Do you really think that the ranchers in the past, stupid as they were for killing all wolves would have taken so much time away from the business of ranching to target wolves unless they were affecting their bottom line?
If you want to have some real eye openers, I can post links of videos of "surplus" sport killing (kills for fun, not food) if you are open minded enough.
I have talked to eye witnesses watching as a wolf killed a Bald Eagle that was scavenging a kill not because the wolf was hungry, but because it was doing what it was made to do, I have NO problem with wolves. As long as there aren't too many, this isn't an issue. Too many wolves or any animal and you have problems.
I have problems with idiots that think they can just let loose one of the most destructive predators loose with no real management and let them decimate game populations at will!
No my friend, these are not foxes, and the acceptable losses of an animal or two a season to the usual cougars, bears and coyotes isn't uncommon, but one pack of wolves will take that many per month if not prevented.
There is even a ranch near Paradise Montana where they specifically set up so they could prove that a ranch would be able to coexist and be profitable with the wolves following Elk from Yellowstone, and they even had a PHD in the field on their payroll (she specializes in predator behavior modification), living in a tent near the cattle attempting to prevent predation by this specific pack.
These are wolves that are tagged and monitored, this isn't some "seat of the pants" operation.
In the end, in one season the ranch lost $200,000 worth of cattle to predation & low body weight of the cattle due to pressure of the wolves, and ended up resorting to destroying the worst offending wolves. All this trouble was caused by just ONE PACK of about 14 wolves.
How many Elk do you think ONE wolf will kill in a year?
Ecological impacts after re-introduction
Rolf Peterson investigating the carcass of a coyote killed by a wolf in Yellowstone National Park, January 1996
Scientists have been researching and studying the impacts on the Yellowstone ecosystem since re-introduction in 1995. As the wolf population in the park has grown, the elk population, their favored prey, has declined. Prior to reintroduction, the EIS predicted that wolves would kill an average 12/wolf elk annually. This estimate proved too low as wolves are now killing an average of 22/wolf annually.[22] This decline in elk has resulted in changes in flora, most specifically willows, cottonwoods and aspens along the fringes of heavily timbered areas. Although wolf kills are directly attributable to declines in elk numbers, some research has shown that elk behavior has been significantly altered by wolf predation. The constant presence of wolves have pushed elk into less favorable habitats, raised their stress level, lowered their nutrition and their overall birth rate.[23]
The wolves became significant predators of coyotes after their reintroduction. Since then, in 1995 and 1996, the local coyote population went through a dramatic restructuring. Until the wolves returned, Yellowstone National Park had one of the densest and most stable coyote populations in America due to a lack of human impacts. Two years after the wolf reintroductions, the pre-wolf population of coyotes had been reduced to 50% through both competitive exclusion and intraguild predation. Coyote numbers were 39% lower in the areas of Yellowstone where wolves were reintroduced. In one study, about 16% of radio-collared coyotes were preyed upon by wolves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_wolves_in_Yellowstone
Is it the wolves' fault that they are doing what they were born to do, or the people not managing them properly?
It took a fight in court just to allow ranchers the permission to kill repeat offenders killing livestock (this is now on-going in Oregon) in a practical way.
Imagine you have a business to run, and at the same time have to start spending as much or more time watching for "the act of predation" before you can even do anything, never mind that you are already loosing money, and any reimbursement from the government of lost animals isn't covering half the loss!
Who do you really think knows the situation? People who live and work in the areas of the problem, or some official or organization from miles away that gets only one side of the story from biased sources?
Idiots have sued to prevent management of wolves by the Fish & Wildlife Service in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho. I have yet to hear of them doing anything to pay for the damages caused by this failed experiment so far all I have seen is legal battles to keep them from being controlled!
Again, once the game has been severely impacted, wolf populations increase out of control DUE TO INTERFERENCE by man NOT NATURAL CIRCUMSTANCES (Which I can prove has happend in several reports from several states to Include Oregon, we are on the west coast my friend, there isn't any further west they could go) do you really think we should
"let nature take it's course" now that an unnatural imbalance has been created by man?
And lets forget the straw man of "wolves killing humans" that is just a silly thing to say.
I'm talking about idealists with too much book sense inflicting their ideals onto others who actually have to live in the middle of one of the worst failed wildlife experiments in recent history. Once there were indications in the FIRST TWO YEARS of problems it should have been handled, and people who live there are paying the price.
I have heard directly from friends of mine still living in Montana and seeing these effects first hand, places that people used to pay $20,000 for the pleasure of hunting Elk in some areas, not to mention Deer and now there are none to be found in areas you used to have to worry about hitting them with a car they were so common.
A friend of mine totaled 2 cars in 3 years because of Deer being so common (no one else did in her family, so she wasn't the greatest driver, but hey lol) this is also the first place I ever hunted them. Now if I wanted to take my nephew there to learn to hunt, he would be lucky to even see one.
I'm sure those who don't live near or see the first hand effects of this problem will have a hard time understanding my side, but remember this, Elk don't live in Yellowstone, they live all over, around and near Yellowstone, and in many other places, but just like the wolves, they migrate, and when one place is down 70%, that just means more to come in other areas unless common sense management is applied.
We don't have huge die-offs of Deer and Elk because of a lack of predators to weed out the sick and lame, we had those things under control with healthy ecosystems and populations, and now we do not, because there is a huge imbalance of wolves.
I haven't been able to go home to Montana for the better part of four years now, and the places where Deer and Elk were abundant, are now stripped of them, think about this, only 30% of the herd is left in Yellowstone, and this has been running a-muck with out honest (or maybe just adult) management for nearly 16 years!
Even now there are legal battles to try and stop the humane and effective management of wolves where they are causing the most damage! (This is now 15+ years since introduction of Canadian Grey Wolves has gone terribly wrong)
I'm not surprised in the least that areas I used to see the Elk are now devoid of them nearly entirely (if you know anything about Elk you don't generally even see them with out looking a mile out or hiking many miles into the high country to find them) in areas I could have found them 3 days out of 4, and this is nearly impossible now.
Sure, it's not quite the same thing, since they're my own species, genetically-speaking, but those resources would still be "mine" the same way the land and whatnot belong to many of those ranchers--because I would still have them if my competition weren't there, and hadn't taken them from me, directly or indirectly.