Emmo Urban ebike torque upgrade

smeagol222

100 W
Joined
Dec 17, 2015
Messages
174
Location
Toronto, Canada
I have a small ebike "emmo urban/kiwi ebike/Roketa ES-44/Nicom Switch" with 16" wheel 500w motor 48v 18amp controller (standard). Wanting to upgrade for more torque. Apart from putting a shunt in to get more amps through, is there a way to test or tell what the motor is capable of handling?

Currently by doing the math the 500w motor is receiving 864W (48v x 18amp) or are the extra amps to power the 12v DC-DC converter (lights, alarm etc), and the controller is limiting the current to like 10.41amps for exact 500w to the motor. Generally how much "over rated" are these motors (I know this is a pretty vague question but is there a rule of thumb?)

I have another 48v 40amp controller with LCD that I can set current limit up to the max 40amps. I dont want to destroy the motor, but the takeoff is really pitiful in its current state.

I also have an "Emmo X" ebike which is 500w motor and 28amp controller. The takeoff is pretty good, but its a bulky and heavy bike.

I would be happy to get the same torque with the smaller framed "emmo urban"
 
I use a Kelly controller that lets me set the phase and battery current. Regardless of that, I don't really care what my motor phase current is as much as I care about whether the motor gets too hot or not. If you can adjust your phase current whether via shunts or programmatically, adjust it so your motor runs under heavy load at around 125-150F. I have a small temperature sensor that is mounted to the side of my motor where it can detect heat right off the windings. I watch for over temp issues and adjust my phase current to accommodate if needed. I am currently running a 1500 watt BOMA inrunner at well over its rated voltage and current. I opened up the end plates on the motor to take a blower and added small heat sink fins to the outside of the can. As a result I can run it well over (3000 watts) its rated wattage (1500 watts) and still not overheat. OF course you can try to push too much current through a motor and it will die no matter how much cooling you give it. The below pic is my 2000 watt BOMA inrunner. Somehow I had set the phase current to 130 amps and killed it over about a months time. The motor ran at 120-150F all the time so honestly I am in doubt that it died from heat. I think I suffered an insulation failure that caused a winding short. It died very suddenly. Its a 2000 watt motor that I was running at 5000 watts and held up really well as long as I kept force cooling going. Then one day it made an odd sound, stuttered a little an all of a sudden was well over 200F and flames and smoke were coming out of the motor. I had checked the windings a couple of days before to see if they were getting cooked and they were fine. so I am unsure if it died from my phase current being set to 130 amps. I know for a fact that I pushed 70-80 amps at 72 volts through it pretty regularly or 5000-5700 watts and it took it like a champ and ran at 150F when it was running hard. My whole point is, run it as hard as you can get away with and not overheat the motor. A blower will allow you to push it harder. Heat is the motor killer more than anything else. Comparatively speaking I'm pushing my 1500 watt BOMA every bit as hard as the 2000 watt BOMA and it's not showing any signs of letting up as long as I limit it's current to what the blower can deal with. I tested it briefly at 5000 watts and it ran, but it got hot in a couple of minutes or about 1/4 mile of riding. I turned down the phase current to 52 amps and it has ran well with the blower and hard riding and it never gets over 120F. BTW...that's 3700 watts. I've set my current to 60 amps and the motor gives me a little more torque, but it gets much hotter, much quicker so I turned it back down to 52 amps which still gives me good acceleration and a top speed of 40mph.

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Get a controller that can outpace the rest of your ride by double or more. The size will be 20-30% larger and cost for the larger controller might be $100 more, but it's worth it. My controller can do whatever I can imagine throwing at it. My batteries can deliver 80-100 amps with no issues so my biggest limit right now is what can the motor effectively use and that's my real limiter. I have a new motor, that I am getting ready to put on my scooter that is rated for 3000 watts, but I'll be running it at 5000-7000 watts no problem. I'll just have to watch how well it performs and how hot it gets and then adjust accordingly. I'll set the phase current to the maximum I can get away with and not overheat the motor. Here's my new motor. Physically it is about the same size as the 2000 watt BOMA, but the armature and windings are a much better fit and 30-40% larger inside the cans volume. The 1500 watt BOMA kicking around 3700 watts gets me just barely short of 40mph (39.5mph). The 2000 watt BOMA at 5000 watts got me 45+mph. I'm expecting another 10mph out of the new motor and then after I mod it for delta/wye switching, get another 10-15mph. Then I will be pushing the limits of my batteries!

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I use a small watt meter that goes to my motor controller only. That way I know what it is pulling. I don't care about my lights and other stuff...that's all fluff.

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Wow thanks for all the info, I guess they don't call you ElectricGod for nothing eh. Yeah I've heard of Kellycontroller, I was asking them about hub wheels with drum brake but they only had disc, and the crappy ebikes I was thinking of only had drum brakes.

So I guess temperature guage is the way to go. I ended up ordering 1500w 16 inch hub motor from china for about $280. The dropouts on this tiny ebike are pretty small but still around 200mm and this motor looks quite slimline.
http://goo.gl/cHHTav

I was talking with the seller and he said he can "wind for torque" which is what I want, but since I've only got a 48v 40amp controller the top speed wont be that great (1920w into 1500w he said it would be fine even up to 3500w since it would only be peak power anyways) I'd much rather torque and top speed.

The seller was also saying that "sine wave" controllers are a good thing and has an impact on torque and the loudness of the motor itself. Maybe later on down the track I'll fork out $800 for 72v lithium battery and controller, we'll see.
 

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Most likely that hub motor is already wound for torque or WYE. Do you know what the KV is? That speaks volumes about how it's wound. You can have one motor and wind it on the fly for torque or speed. WYE is good for torque, but not top speed. Delta draws more current than WYE, but the exact same motor wired for Delta will be 1.73 times faster than it will be in WYE. So if you get 30mph in WYE, multiply that by 1.73 and you have some idea what you will get with it set up in delta (52mph). I like your your little moped. I wish I had a tiny one like it. I would load a regular wheel on the back, add an outrunner (80-100) and that little toy would do 55mph.

I suggest that you stay at 48 volts and then build a lot of capacity.

There's 3 ways to get more speed out of a setup. With brushless motors you are limited by its maximum RPMs. It really defines how fast you can go so you have to work around it some how. These 3 ways are pretty much how you do that.
1. Have lots of available current and a strong motor controller that can deliver it to the motor. There is limits to this approach. There's only so much torque any given motor can produce and throwing more current at it wont make it pull any harder and it just gets hot and burns up. With an inrunner or outrunner, you can leverage that extra torque and user a closer to 1:1 gearing ratio to convert more motor turns into wheel turns. With a hub motor, all you get is more torque since there's no way to gear it differently. As a result, I tend to use inrunners and outrunners and ignore hub motors.
2. More voltage. KV X supply voltage = max motor RPMs. So a 50 kv motor at 48 volts will produce 2400 RPM. A 50kv motor at 72 volts produces 3600 RPMs. More motor RPMs means more wheel speed. For a hub motor, this is a great way to get more speed out of it. It is a very common way people increase their top speed. I went from 48 volts to 72 volts myself for this reason. There is one significant drawback. 48 volts is 12 LIPO or LION cells in series. 72 volts is 20 cells in series. OK great so now I have the higher voltage, but at significant increase in cost for more cells. Also, 12 8000mah cells in series have a total capacity of 8000mah. 20 8000mah cells in series still have a total capacity of 8000mah. That basically means pull 8 amps at 48 volts or at 72 volts and you will still get 1 hour of power. If you are looking for the best bang for your buck build for lots of capacity, but less voltage. That means lots of cells in parallel at 12 cells rather than fewer cells in parallel because they got used up getting you to 20 cells in series. If you can afford it or have a way to pull off cheap cells, well I suggest doing both...higher voltage and lots of capacity. This is my battery thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=76013 I use laptop batteries which I can get used ones for free.
3. Rewire your motor so it can be switched from WYE to delta. It means 7 wires coming out of the motor rather than 4 (Normally you have 3 phase wires and a hall cable), but it means with a beefy 3 pole relay, that you can switch from WYE to delta on the fly. Think of it as a 2 speed transmission, that has no mechanical losses. First gear (WYE), gets you from a stop to 30mph, then you flip a switch, go into second gear (delta) and cruise on up to 50mph. Here's a great thread on WYE/delta switching: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9215&hilit=doctorbass+wye+delta+switching

You will need to fish the temperature sensor inside the axle so you can get it inside the motor and next to the windings. That means taking apart the motor. With a hub motor since it has covers that separate you from the actual motor, it's hard to get a reliable temperature reading from the outside of the motor...and it's spinning. You need the tempurature sensor on the motor windings for it to be effective. A hub motor is effectively an outrunner with super low Kv, but typical outrunners have easy access to the motor windings. With an inrunner, the motor windings are inside the motor can and the magnets spin in the middle of the windings. A lot of times, you can carefully drill a hole through the motor can and right into the iron in a motor winding to get tempurture from the outside. I have open end plates on my inrunner motors so I run the sensor in through the end plate and then cram it down into the windings someplace.

Torque vs speed. Look at the size of that motor compared to what you already have on your scooter. It's going to develop lots more torque that your current motor no matter how it's wound. I wouldn't bother with a torque winding personally.

Sine vs trapazoidal controllers...they are a little quieter, but I can't tell which controller I am using. Torque feels about the same. And you already know how loud your existing motor is...it's already not loud and you probably have a trapazoidal controller. I wouldn't worry about this very much. It's a minor detail compared to other things. If I had $300 to spend on a controller and one was a 300 amp trapazoidal and the other was a 200 amp sine..well I would probably buy the trapazoidal. You pay more for a sine wave controller. At the end of the say, I'm willing to sacrifice a little noise for more overall capacity.
 
Thanks for all your help on this. I'm waiting to hear back about what KV this motor is. I remember him saying standard for that motor is under 700rpm or 42km/hr (26mph), which seems slow for 1500w rated motor. Then I said 'wound for torque' and he replied about 520rpm or 35km/hr (21mph). I know these are pretty slow speeds (in Canada the "legal" thing is 500w motor and 32km/hr). I've been 40 and 50km/hr on my electric bicycles and it gets kinda scary going that fast on something so small.

Like I said before, zipping through the city (Toronto) I'd be happy with 30-40km/hr speeds. There is a lot of stopping and starting so torque is preferred. My current store-bought ebike (emmo.ca/emmo-x-series/) seems to have a similar motor to attached screenshot (black with silver lines on edges), and torque is so much better than the one on this mini ebike.

I'm looking to strip down this mini-ebike and sand get rid of all the rust and re-spray add all components replace incandescent lights with LED's, horn, taserlaser, flamethrowers from my retired 'experimental' electric commuter bicycle
 

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Well it took about a month but I finally finished it. Lots of sanding painting wiring, re-wiring, plastic cutting and soldering.

I have to say I'm very impressed with the torque. Its sooooo much better than the stock motor. Top speed on LCD shows about 54km/hr, so far on flat or down slight hill I've seen high 40's. The part that took the longest was the wiring for sure.
Custom tail case with led turn signals, 2 stage brake/tail light, wolo air horn, new alarm, led lights on the front, 20ah 48v lithium battery, 45a 48v controller.

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