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"Extreme MY1018" archival, closed out

Reid Welch

1 MW
Nov 18, 2006
Miami, Florida
Thanks to Tyler Durden for saving and offering a copy of this old thread from the ruined original VisforVoltage forum.

In time I'll format it into digestible chunks of several posting per form.

at present there's a lot of dross (my jokings) that I'll probably trim off later.


Posted by: Reid Oct 3 2006, 04:56 PM
This thread will detail adventures met training a 250W Unite Motor MY1018
to scream like a banshee without dying like a kamakazee.

By force-cooling of the armature (fechter taught me),
we'll uprate the motor's heat tolerance, but not it's electrical efficiency;
to allow the mite to live--as if it were a 600 to 900W motor.
No more charred windings, that's the main goal.

Secondary goal: a fast (25mph) cruiser bike which I won't have to pedal home dead after a hard ride.

Also planned: to experiment with advance of the brush timing--for better top-end power.

MY1018 weighs only 5 pounds. It bolts on, and is very easy to service.

TNC Scooters will be stocking the MY1018 24V gear motor begining this
month--Good for bottom bracket drives and rear hub drives.

ban blue smoke

Posted by: Reid Oct 3 2006, 11:06 PM
This motor is available from the maker wound for 36V, retaining the same characteristics.

Even so, I prefer the 24V version.
The 36V version will give the same performance specs. at 36V, as the
24V version does on 24V (so state the published specs--theory notwithstanding)

The Currie line of cheap ebikes, with the lone exception of the red "long range" cruiser, use the 24V Unite motor, so that's what I have to work with.

By adding another 12AH battery I got 36V and about 33% boost in torque and top speed,
both of which were exhilarating.

A gear motor has great advantage (impo) over typical BL hubmotors, (I write for newbie readers like myself now),
in that it has great torque from a standing start.
Direct drive hubmotors, except for the Giant Ampeaters,
do not do much to scoot you from a dead stop.

This tiny gearmotor overvolted to 36V whisks my 150lb self plus 85lb bike
right across a busy intersection--no need to pedal.

But... running a 24V MY1018 at full throttle for more than a few miles at a time at that higher voltage,
shoves lots more power through the armature and will char the windings pronto.

After seven miles of a motor destruct test:


Posted by: Reid Oct 3 2006, 11:19 PM
The end result of over-baking the wire enamel.

The gray stuff is either smoke condensate, or, more likely, enamel
going to ash.

The black area over by the thumb and over at the seven o'clock area is
where the turns shorted badly.

As you see the entire thing was pretty hot--most of the visible wire
evidences heat damage.

The putty appears to be some sort of heatproof stuff for dynamic balancing.

Enamel can withstand, what? --Probably four or five hundred degrees
without appearing to burn, or make ash or smoke stains.

This motor was probably dissipating about four hundred watts of
electricity as waste heat in the armature (guesstimated).

Being sealed up a small housing, of poor thermal conductivity overall,
that much heat inevitably burns the wire--the temperature rise must be steady, and almost without limit--except that
the motor burns out, and that's it.

Short runs at high speed (overload is the same thing) will not cause
A long, lugging haul of a grade on 24V will surely burn a motor like this in not too much time. Lugging puts over 750W through the motor, even at 24V.
But, the motor is nowise capable of withstanding that power level in stock form.

Cooling would prevent it all, just like that; simple.
Convective and radiant cooling is not enough here.

By forced air cooling it should be possible to avoid this from
happening to the new motor, which just arrived today.

fechter taught me how best to do this by his example.
Brushed DC motors particularly benefit from air-over cooling

Think of AC electric drills and saws and the like...they are fan cooled,
liberally-so, and handle much power, and make a lot of waste heat.

More later after system construction is in progress.


Posted by: Commute20mile Oct 4 2006, 07:25 AM
Great posts. Keep 'em coming.

Posted by: Reid Oct 9 2006, 02:21 PM
Beginning to mod the Unite MY1018 today.

Figuring out things as I go along.

Good surprise: the housings are diecast zinc.
This means that it drills very easily and cleanly.

I won't have to remove, pry out/disturb the brush plate in order to
Swiss cheese its cover
(there's a few mm. of air gap between the inside of the cover and the
brush holding plate).
Diecast makes no curlycues of metal which could otherwise lurk and
remain under the brush plate,
to go adrift later on and cause mischief.

Pictures to be taken later today or tomorrow will make all of the steps

Swiss cheese the brush cover plate? Yes, to some extent.
This'll be the easiest way to put air into the motor.

I will recycle the old motor's brush cover plate--using it as a plenum
That is, it fits, Oreo-style, over the existing cover.
Spacers of a few mm. thickness... and a nipple for the air hose?
That'll mount in the former ball bearing's space in the recycled cover.

The finished result will look like stock, but protrude a half inch or
so more from the bike.
It will have a copper nipple press-fitted and epoxied into the center
of the cover.

I'll probably paint the whole thing with a light coat of Krylon flat
black, to further maximize radiant cooling.

The stock motor is painted silver.
The silver paint yields quickly to paint remover.

So it's bare as a baby right now.

Next step--ventilate the brush cover.

I'll also be advancing brush timing by about 7 to 10 degrees (roughly)
by re-indexing the new motor's brush plate/cover assembly.
This requires drilling just four new holes.

The old cover plate will guide my hand drill.

Pictures later, having too much fun right now.
Gee, what if this all works out?

Well, if it doesn't--if I burn up this motor too in torture testing to
I'll buy a new one from TNC scooters. They should have stock of this
MY1018 very soon.

I consider it to be a consumable item (not like a BL $$ hub motor).
So, to have a spare, ready to slap on, it a good plan.

And if it doesn't burn up on 36V and flat-out running, after this
force-cooling mod?
How long will it last? I'm curious to find out.


Next posting will show pictures more or less self explanatory.
I'll caption them only as needed.

Posted by: Reid Oct 9 2006, 06:47 PM
The inside of the diecast motor cover carries the brush plate:
phenolic board standing about 3mm off from the inside surface of the
This plate has a 3mm air gap. It stands on four lugs, one of which is
noted by the white cursor.
The lugs are swedged a bit to hold the phenolic.
Removable by prying, but I didn't wish to disturb things--there is no
need to do so because the metal drills so cleanly.


The cover has already been ventilated--air will pass around the
perimeter of the brush plate
and also around the center hole, hitting the commutator and brushes
with cool air.



On the right is the very same cover as above. See the phenolic board
peeking through the air holes.
Note the other cover--the gear-end cover of the motor has twelve air
exit holes.
These will be baffled to prevent ingress of water splash, no worry
about that.



Here are the major parts of the MY1018. So simple.
OK: the extra (leftover) brush end cover from the old motor is to be
used as a plenum cover;
that's it laying atop the new motor's brush plate cover.
It will get a 3/4" copper elbow fitted to its center, next step.

I will grind off its flange and attach it with self tapping screws to
the ventilated cover.
Air will be forced into the plenum, go through the holes, around the
brush plate, through the motor,
carrying off waste heat generated in the armature.

This is all done to allow the motor to live longer at high loads, high
As a sealed motor, it gets to be like a miniature oven inside.
The modification will make it like an oven with an open door, and a fan
blowing on the turkey.
It should be less liable to roast turkey this way.
I am, of course, the turkey, if the armature...roasts!

Note how cleanly the diecast zinc drills. This was a great
troublesaver, to not have to pry out the brush plate.

Note the little gear case? That is to be packed with grease, per usual.
I will vent the case, though ,with a couple of small holes.
When a case is packed full of grease and then the gears are run,
thermal expansion plus the churning, forces excess grease out through
the "sealed" beaings
*there is no such thing, really*.

The bearing behind the output sprocket is of the metal shielded type.
It will pass excess grease readily, until the excess is relieved.
The bearing behind the drive pinion (integral with the armature) is of
the rubber "seal" type.
This type passes less grease, so relatively little grease gets into the
armature housing.

Anyway: by making two small grease holes remote from one another
I can "change" the grease in the compartment from time to time, if
thought needed,
without opening the case up.

Two small self-tapping screws will seal the holes when they aren't

Next step: mate the fake cover to the real cover and begin air flow
tests (that is, guess whether I've got a free enough passage for the
air pressure the blower will provide. If less restriction is called
more holes will be drilled, no sweat.

So it goes...


Posted by: fukenfooser Oct 9 2006, 07:15 PM
I'm following this with interest.
Because I just recieved my own MY1018.
Not the geared one, a different one.

"MY1018 CE
Voltage: 24VDC Rated speed: 2500 RPM
Rated current: 16.5A Output: 300W

Jx JX Motor Co.,Ltd"

Was picked up off E-bay
$.99 + S&H of $20.00
Black body, Silver end caps
about 4" Dia, and 3.4" long
Has 4 bolt mnt plate built on
Shaft= 15/32", with a .393" dbl flat sided sprocket mnt under 19/64"
threaded end
also has dbl flat spots on main larger shaft area about 3/8" across
11T #25 chain size sprocket came on it.
ZERO air cooling as no holes at all
front end plate has 4 screws, rear has nothing
Spins either way with 12 VDC to wires, (cw or ccw).
When shorted, (wire held together) the motor is harder to turn.
This is a test we, (R.E. people, aka windmills ect,ect..)
do with DC motors to see if worth picking up when found in travels.

I was working on building a mini E-scooter or something like maybe
the "Sparky II".
So watching what you do to help cooling will be of interest !!!
The "Solar Scooter" I was given has gotten me bitten to have
a faster E-Ride Toy.
The ss has a motor with built in jackshaft like the newer MY1018's
All belt drive, but limited speed as being a "old fart" type, 15 MPH,
hey, I't do wheelies if rode standing and being in turbo speed, (button
when starting from dead stop just do like on a bike, pull back on
handle bars a bit
as motor starts to push it forward!
Would be great for parts if it wasn't a working E-ride.
I should just mod on it but hate to ruin it.
Still thing it would be cool chopped out.

Attached Image
Posted by: Reid Oct 9 2006, 08:22 PM
Good! I'm glad that the general principle here is of interest to folks.
We are hot rodding mini motors.


The perversity of manufacturers...

The ball bearing, as a -general rule- should be a light press fit on
the shaft.
It should not be a slip-on fit or the shaft may at times spin in the
bearing's ID bore,
making wierd noises that come and go, and eventually possibly causing
shaft damage.

Unite had the bearings set up as a bare slip fit on both of the two
motors I've seen now.
A small sin in my opinion, but a sin nonetheless.

So, just as good, even better than press fit here, is to slip the
bearings back onto the armature shafts
using a locking agent. "Stud and bearing mount" is another name for
this thick red anerobic cement.

Use it sparingly--a dab'll do ya.

Now, the other side of the coin: as a -general rule- the ball bearing's
outer race should be a bare slip fit in the supporting cover's bore.
This allows for thermal expansion. IF both ID and OD of the ball
bearing are press fit-tight, there's no relief for strains engendered
when the motor heats or cools.
Shortened bearing life may result.
Radial load ball bearings like these are not meant to take much of a
thrust load.
On the other hand, the castings are thin and somewhat flexible/springy,
to a couple of thousandths of thermal growth----differential of
dimensional growth between armature shaft length and housing length.

Unite provides (correctly) a spring washer behind the brush-end ball
bearing, to keep it all lightly pressed forward, to prevent end shake
rattles that could otherwise occur
(and prevent the -wear- to the castings' bearing bores that woud
If the OD bore is worn or slopped, it -might be OK- to apply a bit of
silcone rubber type of glue.
If the parts are grease free... the silicone rubber is elastic enough
and yielding enough to allow thermal strain relief, while also
immobilizing the OD of the bearing from chattering or spinning out in
the bore (so long as the bearing runs without internal failure, ie:
grinding up. Then somthing's gonna give and you'll know it by loss of
power and terrible noises, probably.

See that Unite uses a rubber "sealed" pinion-end bearing here.
This is to better exclude gearcase grease.
However, such bearing seals are only rated to keep ball bearing grease
-in- the ball bearing.
They cannot prevent grease or oil migration shoving or leaking
-through- the bearing from an adjacent grease-packed case.

But, as noted in a prior posting, the output shaft bearing is only
metal "shielded", and so,
leaks excess grease to the outside world, in preference to the grease
going back into the motor.
So, no problemo.

If it were a critical application, an "umbrella seal" would be called
Here there is no room for, nor any real need for an umbrella seal (It's
a sort of flanged rubber compression seal).


Bearings cemented in place for silent running


Posted by: Dom Oct 10 2006, 09:19 AM
Good stuff Reid
I must have missed a post somewhere -you finally got a proper
replacement motor??

With all your cool plans -this motor should be a rocket!!
I was surprised when i put my controller(which never felt like it got
warm ever) in my battery bag -the bike cut out after a few minutes
normal running.
Took me a while to work out it needs air running over it -even a small

Cheers Dom

Posted by: Reid Oct 10 2006, 10:07 AM
Yeah, Currie at last sent a new motor.

I was just humbled by my ignorance again:

-motor partly assembled (sans output gear),
I ran it from a 12V battery, holding the brush cover in place.

Rotating the cover anti-motor rotation, the armature spins faster,

Ooooo (I thought!) More power at speed!

Then I smelled smoke. Glanced at the clip leads.

Melting vinyl. I pulled off the brush cover pronto to prevent the
neighborhood from burning up.

Stufu just learned: advancing the brush timing much past (presumed
neutral?) factory setting,
increases no-load current draw enormously.

I will forego timing advance for now.
My fingertips are blistered! (not really)

I hate the smell of blue smoke.

Break---finish it later today.
Fume meanwhile.
Grow Less Stupid


Currie seals the controller in an airtight cubby.
I don't know how they get away with that.
It's just above the b.b.; a totally closed box,
designed to hide the controller and...retain rain water.

cheers to Dom from me,

Mr. Dummy

Posted by: Reid Oct 10 2006, 07:27 PM


At this writing the brushes are running-in on a 12V feed, no load.

The plenum cover will be screwed on with sealant
and the unit painted with Krylon satin black for appearance and for
that little extra bit of cooling afforded by a thin coat of black paint
(black is a cooling color).

The 3/4" copper elbow is an interference fit. The slight protrusion
inside the cover is riveted over;
nicked with a chisel and cemented with red bearing locker.
It should hold OK. Don't want it to fall out, ever.

I've decided to mount the motor in a new orientation:
the big circle hanging down instead of up.
It'll look a little neater.

The blower will get mounted next
to the underside of the existing seatpost rack.

It is a 24V blower. The bike is 36V.
It was discussed here on forum, and determined earlier, that the
simplest way to drop 12V
for the blower is to run a 12V 1A auto lamp in series with the blower

The blower will be fed in parallel with the motor.
Therefore, its action will be entirely automatic, in sync with motor
speed/cooling needs.

The two long, protruding RH screws are temp. caps for the grease
input/output holes I just drilled into the gear case.
They'll be replaced with stubby screws. By this means I can regrease
the gear case as desired without stuffing it over-full.

It has occured to me that I -could- engineer a grease pumping
system--grease pumped by the pinion and driven gear, recirculating, and
shot out into the mesh of the pinion-to-driven gear.
That's for the next motor. This one I just want to run asap even before
installing the blower.

I'll just keep the speed down for now until the blower gets fitted,
holding my speedgreed to 17 or 18 miles per hour; it'll be OK at that
Once blown? Full bore and 25 per!

Posted by: Reid Oct 10 2006, 10:38 PM
Here's a blowup of the Currie Izip cruiser motor drive
back when it was bone stock (Aug 13th)

Now it's time to test the blower. "24V 10W", it cost about five bucks
from Marlin Jones electronics (thanks fechter for the lead)

The motor, even idling on 12V grows warm to the touch.
Next I lashed up the blower.
It's so quiet on 24V that I think it's wiser and better to
run it full power all of the time.

After five minutes the motor case was cool to the touch

Quite a breeze is going through the motor.
The motor was stone cool after five minutes of blower operation.
The two units are running--the frash flozen motion.

How to mount the blower to the seatpost rack?

"The thin' hay no room!" says Ren.

Never fear! I, Stimpy, have a hAcKsAW.

"You are a genius idiot"

Righty, Ren.
We are a team.


"Dom will be so jealous...." (audio joke)

Posted by: goofproofpc Oct 11 2006, 12:19 AM
"Dom will be so jealous...." (audio joke)

LMAO............. Dude might want to consider seeing a


Posted by: Reid Oct 11 2006, 01:09 AM
Doktor Felix Risinggarter, consultant:


If Matt were here I would paint him like this (j/k)

for disrespect of a comedian.
Hanging? Mandatory of course.

I kid a lot.

The project should be basically finished by tomorrow night.
For the voltage dropping lamp I think I might use this 11W non-halogen
PAR lamp
already on hand:


If I spritz the lens with red Krylon "Stained Glass Color" paint,
woot: what a nifty tail light. Wide flood too boot.

I -think- the blower motor will be audible enough, that I'll know it's
That is, if the blower were to fail and I did not realize it (the lamp
was gonna be a tell-tale in my line of sight), I could fry the motor.

Let's see. One guess leads to another.

Matt, go have a beer and have fun.

BTW, is your sister free on Saturday?


How about Wednesday?

Oh, nevermind, lol!

Posted by: Reid Oct 11 2006, 09:05 AM
OK, enough joking around; back to work:

There's not enough room on the seatpost rack.

The SLA battery is double-stick foam taped to the rack.
Man! It's really on there! I can't pull it off.
Why bother, anyway? It's in its best postion.

Hacksaw two sides...

Bend the flange and off it breaks...

Now there's room...

The light bulb for a dropping resistor:
Did not work according to theory.
The blower's current draw is directly dependant on the load.
Since I've choked off the blower's output, it draws less current.
I found that even a .6A 12V bulb only dropped about four volts. Not

Trial with lightbulbs on hand showed that either a 150W 120V regular
bulb would work (too bulky!)
OR, that slim 100W halogen seen in the top picture.
Both give virtually identical voltage drops. Odd, eh?

It's because the relatively cold tungsten filaments have very different
explained by the very different lamp technology between the two.

I'll use the slim halogen for a self-regulating dropping resistor.
There is -some small measure- of voltage regulation:
When tungsten is hot, like copper, its resistance increases.
This sort of application is technically called a "barreter" resistance.
Crude, but I don't have to go mess around with power resistors, etc.

The lamp only gets warm to the touch. I guess it's dissipating less
than five watts.

Where to stow it?

How about in here? Padded, of course.
It'll never break or burn out.

This is real-time reporting of home brew modding by a hacksaw and
solder guy.
I'm posting pictures as I progress and think it through one step at a

Now I am wanting a DPDT switch so I might have the blower run either
from the motor supply (variable)
-OR- flip the switch to run full tilt.
That way I can have (or avoid) the soft turbine whoosh when the bike is
running slowly--when full cooling is not needed.
-OR- if the motor's hot I can cool it down fast, even while the bike
may be still.

I hope this is getting interesting in its humble, cheap-way manner of

More later this AM


On to the blower:

Posted by: Dom Oct 11 2006, 09:05 AM
QUOTE (goofproofpc @ Oct 11 2006, 12:19 AM)
"Dom will be so jealous...." (audio joke)

LMAO............. Dude might want to consider seeing a


Don't know if i went GREEN but i went pretty RED from LMAO double

You'll definately have a rocket there Reid!! Top Stuff!!

You need to have some of those wind ribbons so we can see the hot air
coming out!
Cheers Dom

Posted by: Reid Oct 11 2006, 09:22 AM

I'll hang 'em to me mouth...


Posted by: Reid Oct 11 2006, 11:10 AM
While waiting for epoxy putty to fully harden so it may be filed:

To increase the pressure delivery of the blower
the inside of the cover, which has a uselessly wide air gap from the
is getting filleted with putty to decrease that gap.

Then I file and fit by hand and shoot for 1 mm or less of air gap.
Don't want it to scrape, but don't want to waste air.

The centrifugal principle depends on inertia of air put to great
Curiously, but it makes sense: when we block the output of a
centrifugal fan, what happens?

-The motor unloads and speeds up greatly. It draws less current.
-But, as air delivery is progressively choked off, the pressure goes

Makes sense, huh?
I want max pressure from the fan, to put max volume of air through the
restrictions of the hose, fittings and motor cooling path.

I figure to fiddle this project for these few days. It's all good.
Not sure just how much the fan-tuning really counts for. Maybe nothing.
Maybe just that little bit of extra air delivery---there can't be too
much but there could be too little.

Have to make a filter/bug excluder too.
And figure how to dress the seatpost rack over with fabric so it looks
half normal.
That leftover cover from the kiddie trailer--yellow ripstop nylon.
I can't sew but I can velcro and glue

and hacksaw and solder, lol

Posted by: Recumbenz Oct 11 2006, 12:36 PM
This is really fascinating! The MY1018 promises to be a really
cost-effective motor for bottom drive applications so your hot-rodding
efforts are being closely followed.

Simply drilling holes as you've done will permit a certain amount of
air circulation through the motor to dissipate heat. Is it possible
that adequate ventilation could be achieved without the all the hassle
of a motor driven blower? Passive pressurization could consist of
nothing more than a forward-facing funnel directed into that copper
elbow. As soon as the bike is moving there'd be a lot more air moving
through the motor than stock.

A passive ventilation mod would be a lot easier to live with yet might
still do the job ??


Posted by: Reid Oct 11 2006, 12:45 PM
Hi Peter, best regards are offered to you for your ideas.

Yes, I thought of that too. I don't know. Somelse will take that

Let's presume for a moment that a funnel (like old ships used) would
ram enough air in
at speed, to keep the motor cool enough.

OK, now the next scenario: Climbing a grade with the full force of 36V
jamming maybe 25 or more amps through the motor. And no headwind. Maybe
a tailwind.

I'd worry that it'd fry under adverse conditions.
I figure we must carry off up to 400W of waste heat at times.

If I don't burn this motor I'll learn in time just how long it lasts,
it being brushed and all.
Sort of a consumable thing, is how I look at it.

I would be delighted to get a thousand miles before the next motor
failure. Delighted and amazed.
Then put in a new motor---swap in a new brushplate and armature and
driven gear---that's all that wears (drive pinion being machined from
the armature shaft).

I don't think gear wear will be a problem.
I think it'll be heat strains, then commutation troubles.

Nearly ready to trial it,




The motor is dry-fitted
The lamp-resistor is stuffed inside the seatpost rack's hollow tube.
The blower is mounted
The vinyl hose is getting wrapped in that sort of spiral black cable
wrap, to dress it up
The controller needs some sorting out of its wiring connections (TNC
controller giving me fits)
Hook the blower wires to the main battery supply (for now it'll be just
that one way).

Need to pump grease into the gearcase of the 1018,
install the grease retaining screws

and go for a ride.

Posted by: Buzzz Oct 11 2006, 01:13 PM
" Dom will be so jealous " lol... oh my god Reid.. you have just
surpassed any level of weirdness i have ever seen before !!!! top job !
lol... oh god.. my ribs hurt !

Posted by: Reid Oct 11 2006, 02:42 PM
I'm just being a funnyman. Not weird and not mental.

Some people, I swear! Like, so--I like pancakes. That's normal enough,
Right??? OK. So I like pancakes.

I have trunks full of them.


Here's the general look at the moment

I cannot get the TNC 36V controller to behave properly;
can't figure out why the throttle does not work correctly..

So I'll reinstall the Currie's stock 24V controller which worked
flawlessly on 36V.
Have to solder five little wires back together. Oh bother.

So while I break from tedium I just took these pictures.
It is a nice day in Miami. About 75F and partly cloudy, low humidity.
This is the beginning of our six months per year of about the best
weather in the USA.
Don't move here though. It's too crowded.
And no one speaks Henglish hanymore. Only Cockney. But that's only me,
joking again.

Pardon if I log off? I am hungry.
Pancakes, you know...

lol, but oww, I am tired of messing with the incompatible 36V
Into the bit bucket for it.

Just a few more connections and


Captain! Didja see 'er? A great blue whale! Look!


*am looking now with imagesearch for a woodcut of Ishmael, the narrator
of Melville's "Moby Dick".
Will post the first image I find of "Ishmael".


Posted by: Reid Oct 11 2006, 02:47 PM
no one should ever not not hijack any thread of mine which I didn't
start in the first place.
clear enough?

Imagine him as a whaling sailor?

Captain! Didja see 'er? A great blue whale! Look!


"Ishmael" is his name, it really is.
Forget whaling. Imagine him on one of Steve's monkeyshine bikes


Back to reality and the $*#*%*# controller issues...

PS: "thar she blows"
get it now?

not funny?

well! you should try comedy sometime, mr. whoever you are who's running
up the read counter.
FIVE people are following this thread; no more than that. Who's running
up the read counter?
I'd like to know.

Lessee: there's me and Dom and Buzz and a couple others and then
there's me and me and me me and me and me me and me and me me and me
and me me and me and me me and me and me me and me and me me and me and
me me and me and me me and me and me me and me and me me and me and me
me and me and me me and me and me me and me and me me and me and me me
and me and me me and me and me me and me and me me and me and me me and
me and me me and me and me me and me and me me and me and me me and me
and me me and me and me me and me and me me and me and me me and me and
me me and me and me me and me and me me and me and me me and me and me
me and me and me me and me and me me and me and me me and me and me,

So I guess it's all my fault. Usually is!

I love to laugh and make people happy.
I love to laugh and if people don't like it?
(I cannot speak that language here)


Posted by: Reid Oct 11 2006, 04:55 PM
Before the rebuild this motor was notably noisier than the original
that came with the bike.

I just filled the gear case with Valvoline synthetic bearing grease.
One shot seems to be enough.

The motor had run for ten hours last night, unloaded, at low speed.
The shafts now have their bearing cemented to them
The bearing seats in the castings were given a smear of a synthetic,
rubber glue (oil and grease proof stuff). So I know nothing is spinning
or working in bores or on shafts.

The Currie controller has just been reinstalled. It works great.

This motor is positively quieter than its predecessor.
It makes but a fraction of the whine that it made a few days ago before
the teardown.

The bike runs -great-.

But yeah, the motor still makes a lot of waste heat.
After a two mile full throttle run the case temp. was 135F.

This is surely cooler than it would've been without the modest flow of
cool air blown through.
The blower is wired to the main battery. I left it running after
parking the bike.
The motor was exhaling hot air, as expected.
But it cooled down quite quickly--in five minutes or so.

I do not know yet whether the blower delivers -enough- air to ensure
the motor's survival at full, 36V throttle.

I don't want to risk burning this armature too, not until I get a spare
MY1018 from TNC scooters.
Once I have my spare? Time for another destruct test.

And -if- the armature burns up, I'll make another blower system. Forced
air---even positive displacement, such as a bellows is not out of the
question. A piston pump would be noisier.
This blower, though, makes a great TURBINE sound. It's sort of cool.

Summary to wind this up for now:

The motor does run cooler.
The blower cools it down.
The motor runs very much quieter than before.
The predominant whine seems as if it comes from the controller.
Do controllers whine? I suppose it's just transmission of noise from
the gear to the b.b.

Its a very speedy bike for what it is.
It feels solid as a rock and it is a happy bike once again.
So am I!

(happy, I mean. I am not a bike)

Posted by: jondoh Oct 11 2006, 05:36 PM
135 deg F is around 57 deg C which is in the somewhat safe range for
most electronics. Still a little warm-- but not warm enough to bake

I have to think that even that heat will shorten the life of the motor
compared to larger motor or the same motor run at lower power. Maybe a
year or two depending on how often it's run. It would be nice to find
out. Keep up the good work!

Posted by: Reid Oct 11 2006, 05:56 PM
Yessir, I agree: overstressing a modest motor like this one will vastly
shorten its life.

Although the outside case temp. was 135F, it would have gotten hotter,
I think, had I run longer.

And does the outside case temp really -tell what the armature and
brushes and commutator are feeling?
I suppose the windings are much, much hotter.

At what temperature does modern wire enamel begin to char? Hmmm... 500F
I need to find that out.

If I had taken more time I'd have installed a temperature probe
to monitor the core of the motor housing: say, poking in between a pair
of the magnets.
Still, I can't say what the armature temp is running until
a) it fries and b) I learn what is the destruct temperature of enamel.
After all, the main place of heat production is in the commutator and
in the windings.

Good thoughts--thank you for helping me along.

The point of this exercise is to see if a cheap motor can live along
hostile terms,
and for how long. Seven miles is it for the stock motor.
We'll see... now if my "improvements" were worth the doing.



Posted by: Nickf Oct 11 2006, 05:59 PM
Great thread Reid,

Nice to see all the photo's, I can see this developing into a a

I think maybe your new motor might work better with the blower. When I
fried my brushed motor it never worked the same and generated a lot
more heat. I've heard other saying the same thing - that no matter what
they do they never quite get the same performance. Maybe the heat and
current combo damage the magnets?

Posted by: csaudio Oct 11 2006, 08:12 PM

Controllers whine. If your ears are really good you will hear more of
it. The switching frequency of most controllers is less than 20kHz.

You can think of your controller housing as a tweeter.

Hub motors also whine for the same reasons. High freq switched signal
in to the motor turns it into a tweeter.


Posted by: Buzzz Oct 11 2006, 08:31 PM
What are the effects of higher or lower frequency controllers ?
efficiency ? sound ? performance ?

Posted by: Reid Oct 11 2006, 08:36 PM
Hi Nick,

Please tell us about the circumstances that led to your damaged motor?

I've read that even one shorted turn will spoil a motor's performance.

As for heat damage to neodymium magnets? They are not the best for heat

The four neodymium magnets of the Unite motor are, I suppose, mounted
the same way in all modern motors?: the core of the structure is an
iron or steel band, to which the magnets are cemented? or otherwise
fastened. The band is cast into the zinc housing of the motor.

If magnets weaken, yeah, the motor will weaken. But a shorted turn is
more likely (I think)

>From Wikipedia's entry on the subject:

A neodymium magnet or NIB magnet (also, but less specifically, called a
rare-earth magnet) is a powerful magnet made of a combination of
neodymium, iron, and boron - Nd2Fe14B. They have replaced marginally
weaker and significantly more heat-resistant samarium-cobalt magnets in
most applications, due mainly to their lower cost. These magnets are
very strong in comparison to their mass, but are also mechanically
fragile and the most powerful grades lose their magnetism at
temperatures above 80 degrees Celsius High temperature grades will
operate at up to 200 and even 230 °C but their strength is only
marginally greater than that of samarium-cobalt. Neodymium magnets (or
"neo" as they are known in the industry) are graded in strength
from N24 to the strongest N54. The number after the N represents the
magnetic energy product, in megagauss-oersteds (MGOe) (1 MG·Oe = 7,957
T·A/m = 7,957 J/m³). N48 has a remnant static magnetic field of 1.38
teslas and an H (magnetic field intensity) of 13,000 oersteds (1.0
MA/m). By volume one requires about 18 times as much ceramic magnet
material for the equivalent magnet strength. The neodymium magnet
industry is continually working to push the maximum energy product
(strength) closer to the theoretical maximum of 64 MGOe. Scientists are
also working hard to improve the maximum operating temperature for any
given strength.

Note that there are many grades. Inferred: the weaker grades are less
liable to heat damage.


Henry's Model T generated its lighting and ignition current supply by
flywheel magneto.
The best magnetic then was glass-hard tungsten steel. Many were the T
I'd remagnetize, using the coil sheet of series-wound bobbins, against
which it worked,
to produce the required magnetic field.


If a T overheated badly, the magnets often lost their mojo. Weak
ignition resulted.
The system generated AC current. In time, normal engine temperatures
and vibration weakened these magnets. However, they can always be

I wonder (don't have a clue) how they put the magnetism into our
manufactured "nib" magnets?

Early radio speakers had U shaped hard steel magnets. By winding turns
of enameled wire around
an age-weakened magnet, and then goosing it with a fully charged
-large- capacitor of hundreds of volts potential, I found it easy to
restore the magnet--in a flash, literally. I'd always fuse the wire in
doing this trick. That quick -break- of the magnetic field is what
kicked the magnet to fully saturate.

I digress.


The bike battery is charging. Perhaps later tonight I'll go out and
make runs up and down a smooth, residential boulevard nearby. With the
Raytek IR thermometer, I'll check the motor housing temp at half mile
or so intervals. At full throttle, the temp is bound to rise---to some
point yet to be learned.

I just don't want to kill the little bugger quite yet.

Thanks for positive reactions to this mixed bag-of-a-thread.
I'm glad no one's complained of the "entertainment" aspects!
That'd be such a shame if they did. See,
I'd have ta go kill'm.


Posted by: Reid Oct 11 2006, 08:54 PM
QUOTE (csaudio @ Oct 11 2006, 08:12 PM)

Controllers whine. If your ears are really good you will hear more of
it. The switching frequency of most controllers is less than 20kHz.

You can think of your controller housing as a tweeter.

Hub motors also whine for the same reasons. High freq switched signal
in to the motor turns it into a tweeter.


Understood and agreed, but no, this isn't that sort of high pitched
I wouldn't hear above 10k anyway.
This sounds like the old motor whine I know so well from the Currie,
only now it
-seems- to be coming from the cubby where the controller resides,
instead of from the motor.
It's probably due to my having repositioned the motor: it hangs -down-
insead of aiming upwardly.
(see picture previous page). Just such a move as this, plus the
prop-supporting screw I've set to
prevent the heavy mass of the motor from vibrating--these things have
changed the acoustic of the bike frame.

It may account for why the motor is so much quieter.
More likely it's a combination of things.
I've heard odd whizzes and buzzes from the two Unite motors in the
due to bearings squizzing in their cups bearing ID's slipping
intermittantly on the shafts.
Now with everything "right" there's nothing to make odd sounds.

Also, I paid attention to gear mesh in setting the two end plates.
There's a small amount of radial slop movement in the die castings.
I ran the motor on 12V, moving the plates a bit this way and that until
it was quietest
then cinched the screws and applied wicking grade locktite to the joint
to exclude water ingress.

Water will find its way into ungasketed joints.

Thanks for helping guy,


Posted by: Dart Man Oct 11 2006, 10:32 PM
This thread was very entertaining. Thanks for the laughs Reid. Did you
ever get your new V-brakes to work better?

Posted by: Reid Oct 12 2006, 05:19 AM

I got the rear brake (still all-stock) working better by following your
cue and scrubbing down the brake pads. They were glazing with rim
metal. The pads grip and are OK.

Front brakes: am awaiting delivery of a Bike Nashbar brake booster
(fork truss).
This'll make my front brake lever twice as stiff. The springer fork
really springs and twists badly at present

Current local weather condition report. Why?


An hour ago I took the bike to the local high school one mile away
(four AM local time).
The quarter mile running track... (idea from Paul and Scott).

Took along the Raytec thermometer.

motor case temperature, start of the track run: 98F

Cyclometer says:

3.46 miles
23.1 average speed
24.6 max speed.
9:04 elapsed time.

temperature at the finish of the track run: 108F

Summary: under these conditions I'm sure the motor would be just fine.
The commutation in damp air must be ideal
(graphite brushes need moisture to make good commutator film).

Am surprised the temp. rise was so little.
A dissimilar (less stressful) run yesterday afternoon took the motor
case up to 135F in less time.
Perhaps it is the cooler, damper night. Perhaps also that it was an
uninterrupted run?

The motor cooling goal may well achieved.
More runs, more data.
I need a Drain Brain.

Posted by: Reid Oct 12 2006, 05:34 AM
Musing aloud:

It is well known that graphite becomes abrasive if moisture is entirely
Brushed motors cannot be operated in outer space for this reason.

Now, if a bike motor is brushed, and if that motor is essentially
sealed (as they all are in stock form),
and if the motor is run, it gets hot in there. Heat drives out moisture
from the case.
The brushes go bone dry. Brush friction (and wear) increase.
Commutator filming (a continuous, constant process) suffers.
Electrical resistance heat increases. The commutator grows hotter.
The motor efficiency falls, owing to imperfect commutation.

----Now flip the coin:

The motor, ventilated and run in cool, damp night air:
All the bad things above are reversed. Low brush friction, high
commutation efficiency.
Low motor temperature rise.

In the track run report above this posting there's enough data to make
this hypothesis plausible.
Point in formation:
A fully sealed brushed motor is a bad propostion, period.
For it will drive out water vapor as it heats, decreasing commutation

If I lived in a desert region and ran this bike in great dryness,
I'd make a trial comparing dry air running, against humidified air fed
into the motor.

By expedient of a simple evaporative pad above the blower intake
water vapor can be added to the motor's environment.

Posted by: Reid Oct 12 2006, 08:05 AM
I've posted a link to this page, and a synopis over at the Maintenance
There are real electrical pros there. Perhaps one of them will add to
our knowlege.
If so, I'l trans-post the information here.

Beginnning to study wire enamels.

>From the earliest days (my 1887 C&C motor is one witness), the armature

wire required to be wound in slender cotton, or preferably, silk
thread. The armature was then dipped in a varnish or shellac.

This general sort of insulation was nearly standard up to about 1920 or
so, by which time phenolic resin baking varnishes had been developed.
I've a Violano Virtuoso of 1926 vintage. Its motors are all enamel
wired, no cotton or silk. The earlier Violanos, going back to 1912 were
similarly done. The makers of that machine were doing state of the art
motor winding with top quality materials. The survival rate of these
orgininal magnetic windings today is on the order of 99 percent---they
are that well done.

-----From the war years, great advances in wire enamel. Here...

10. Small, Efficient Motors

Silicone materials exhibit unique properties based on their chemical
But those properties turned out to be less than ideal for insulation.

In less than sixty years, manufacturing grew to more than 1 billion kg
of silicone resins made by Rochow's process.

But only a small fraction, about 10%, of that production ended up in
the small, efficient motors. Silicone polymers failed to have the
properties suitable for widespread insulation uses.

The biggest issue for efficient motors was the insulation for magnet
the copper wire windings that wrap the rotating electromagnetic coils.

The rotating coils in a generator produce the current that can be sent
to motors.
In a motor, the process is reversed and the current causes the rotor to
rotate and produce work.

General Electric's engineers could develop a long list of ideal
properties for the magnet wire insulation.
They called this insulation 'wire enamel'.
Their ideal wire enamel should have as many of the following properties
as possible:


At least two dozen factors needed consideration. Some were more
important than others.
In a wire enamel, resistance to the UV rays of the sun would be less
likely to cause a problem than,
let's say, low resistance to electrical current flow.

Before the fact, before Eugene Rochow had his magical laboratory day in
no one could predict the inventory of properties that silicone might
But with silicones in hand, GE's scientists and engineers sensed

they could make silicone resins and impregnate them into glass tape
with excellent overall properties. But wire enamels made from
silicones gave real problems. Wire enamels had the required heat
resistance, but they were soft, not hard.
The enamels were easily cut by adjacent wire. Silicones were porous to
gases and water.

Many of these poor properties were unexpected and sent the scientists
in two directions.
First to understand, if they could, why the silicones failed and to
try to improve those properties. Secondly, the scientists renewed
their quest for other compositions that would work
as wire enamels.

GE's first approach to try to fix the silicones did not work very well.

Their scientists became aware of a Canadian research development, a
resin called polyvinyl formal.
GE licensed the Canadian development. It certainly was not GE's first
choice to use technology
developed by others; what was more important, was finding the best wire

This material met the test of the broad range of properties, and by the
early 1940's
this resin, now called Formvar® by GE, became the magnet wire enamel
of choice.
The one property that Formvar® did not have was the extremely high
heat resistance of the silicones.
It was only a Class F, 150 degrees Celsius insulation, not the Class H,
180 degree
insulation that silicones could achieve, in theory.
But the enamel applied so easily, performed so well and could be coated
in such thin layers
that smaller, more efficient motors and generators came forward.

>From the beginning, GE scientists saw that silicones would have

thousands of uses beyond electrical insulation.
They succeeded in opening up many opportunities. Scientists from
around the world began to look
at other polymers that would show the complex sets properties required
for our modern world.
Chemists and engineers developed marvelously improved materials.

Posted by: csaudio Oct 12 2006, 09:21 AM
Hi Buzzz

Higher switching frequencies yield higher efficiencies as well as
allowing less iron to be used in the inductors in power leg of the

At higher freq the FETs switch quicker and can operate more safely at
high power compared to low freq switchers.

It costs more to make the driver circuits so the cheap controllers will
have lower frequency switchers.

In an airplane the AC power is produced and distributed at 400 +Hz in
order to reduce the needed iron weight.


Posted by: fechter Oct 12 2006, 10:25 AM
There's always an optimum switching frequency. If the motor is big and
has lots of iron, the core losses will increase at a higher switching
frequency. Switching losses in the FETs also increase. You just want to
make sure the frequency is high enough so the flux doesn't have enough
time to completely build or saturate.

Interesting about moisture and motor brushes. I never knew that. I
guess that helps explain why the brushes in my Zappy motor look
practically new after 400 miles despite being run at over 4X the design

Posted by: Reid Oct 12 2006, 11:13 AM
There's always an optimum switching frequency. If the motor is big and
has lots of iron, the core losses will increase at a higher switching
frequency. Switching losses in the FETs also increase. You just want to
make sure the frequency is high enough so the flux doesn't have enough
time to completely build or saturate.[/COLOR

This explains to me why the TNC 40A 36V scooter controller groaned my
bike at low throttle openings.
I had relatively little bottom-end torque. So, it was not a defective
controller. It was my defective crossover application of a big-motor
scoot controller to a small gearmotor.


Interesting about moisture and motor brushes. I never knew that. I
guess that helps explain why the brushes in my Zappy motor look
practically new after 400 miles despite being run at over 4X the design

If it turns out to be true (a 'discovery') that great excess of
humidity actually aids commutation, great!
I should be able to do some rough-and-ready tests to "prove" the
hypothesis further:
If, on a dry day, the motor runs hotter--I can dampen the blower's
airstream by wetting the filter foam. Continue running just the same.
If motor temp begins to drop: proof that more than a mere trace of
water is wanted for best commutation. AND proof that a totally enclosed
brushed motor is a bad, bad proposition.

IF that's so *not likely to bear out in testing, alas*, we will have
taught the world of totally enclosed brushmotor makers
a valuable lesson.

Perhaps Howard Penrose at the Maintenance forum will have a direct
answer to this...
burning question.

NB: do not take out-loud thoughts too seriously;
although I -think- I see a solid trend/effect,
more testing is needed.

Rhetorical question: what is the available water vapor in a closed
brushmotor at, say, 100C operating in Arizona on a summer day? Not
much! Not like my COOL motor saw this AM on the quarter mile track.

Damp morning air; I never liked the feeling of damp so much as I do

____________photo by fechter:


This is fechter's cooling job from which I drew my plans.
Note that it is surely superior in air delivery
on account of larger, shorter hose,
and probably having more pass-through holes in the motor.
Yet his is a smaller blower by far.

Posted by: Reid Oct 12 2006, 02:57 PM
it's a rainy day


Despite the noise factor of motors with spur gearing
I've come to like the Currie system for its neatness.
The extra freewheel--the left side freewheel of the special Currie rear
hub is silent running.
It does not click click click like the conventional freewheel on the
other side of this same hub.
Why is that? Say,
wouldn't it be nice to have a world of silent pedal bikes?
All bicycles I know click click click when the rider coasts.

...have yet to shroud the air exit holes.

a rainy day perspective...

thanks for having a good day
despite personal difficulties we all live with;
very small troubles they surely are
for we who have time to play with our toys

Posted by: Deafscooter Oct 12 2006, 03:43 PM
Deafscooter have many Small Blower to cool the motor it much powerful
flow like hairdryer gun
It has fully ballbeaing on motor and heavyduty brush for long life time
and it run on 24 volts DC
the nozzle dia is Exact 7/8 Inches the Centrifugal is turbine 3 inches
Rotor, house is 4.5 inches

are you intertesting to buy the Centrifugal fan for your need to
project or need to cool the motor.

For asking price each on Fan --- Call ==>> Deafscoo...@yahoo.com

Thank for Visit this Picture .........

Here is Picture of 24 volts Centrifugal Blow Fan => You measure theFan
on Yellow Ruler as size

Attached Image

Posted by: Reid Oct 12 2006, 04:49 PM
Well, we can always count on Craig for free enterprise!

Sell me one for review/promotion purposes...
...for free?

I see it's ancient, high quality N.O.S. Xerox copy machine stuff.
This'd be a fine blower for my bike;
retro rules.

What is the static pressure produced, Craig?
Can you do a U-tube manometer test, please?
Please determine the no-flow pressure, expressed in inches of water
lift, at 24V.

It's very simple:
use any gauge of vinyl tubing, tacked to a board with ruled markings.


If it is better than my blower (which I have not so-tested yet),
I would like to try one of your blowers.

Let me know here, in public, OK?
What is your selling price?

Thank you,

Posted by: Reid Oct 12 2006, 05:05 PM
A reader sent me an email through the Voltage forum's system.
Not sure how to reply to that...whether it would go to him or bounce
from the V system only. It is a question of wide interest to owners of
the old
Currie add-on system.

hi there i have an old black 24v curry. going to give it 36v soon. any
tips. did u have black one first or something else? thanks Michael

No, I have had only one Currie bike and it is of the current crop,
similar in the basic drive (motor hangs off the rear hub).

Otherwise, the only similarity is the reported fact that you'll fry its
if you run it hard on 36V.

Am sure you can run it on 36V if you force cool the motor.

I think it'd be much easier to cool a brushless motor than a brushed

Too bad we have not yet figured a way to cool hub motors by air draft,
not without opening it to the elements.

"We" means VisForVoltage members.
This is a team effort after all.


Posted by: Buzzz Oct 12 2006, 05:19 PM
Don't really need to force cool just about any brushless hub motor i've
heard about as overheating them is just about impossible without insane
measures imposed.... ie: 100v x 40 amps x Time.... I manage to get mine
warm to the touch / slightly hot at 1000w + constant ( off-road does
this !! )

Posted by: Reid Oct 12 2006, 06:06 PM
Ah, but small hub motors have reportedly burned up if overstressed.
You're speaking of super duty hub motors, aren't you?

I mean, there are more anemic hub motors out there than husky ones.


Allow, please, a few minutes for human interest digression, non
because this biking activity leads to our meeting people:

Just last night, on the return home from testing the bike at the H.S.
passing the Amoco gas station,

It was Harris hailing.

Harris (not his real name) is a 46 year old black man, self-admittedly
drug addicted.
He has only a shambling old bicycle to his name. I met Harris last week
when he politely asked, outside the conveniece store across the street,
I might have any spare change. We chatted. "I'm so broke. I just had to
put new
wheels on the bike. The bearings were all falling out."

He's gentle and resigned.

This AM he mentions that he needs brake pads for the bike.
"I'll give you a take-off set from mine.
But since I don't see you regularly, how can I get them to you,

"Well, there's a spot over behind the Dumpster behind the store."
I followed him over there to the Dumpster.
"You could put them in that hole in the broken wall. I'll find them."

While we were there he opened the Dumpster.
I am holding the lid up now while Harris inspects.

He's got his hands in the garbage.
"Man, how can you do that?"

"That's what soap and water are for."

Harris is clean. He lives nearby with his aged parents.

"It's amazing the stuff people throw away.
Just the other day I got a TV and a VCR player and they worked.
I found a six pack of El Presidente beer. One time I found one of those
inflatable dolls---you know what I mean?"

"Yes, I've seen ads..."

" I traded that to the Panamanian clerk inside the store
for some food and stuff. And so that was a good deal. People waste so

Harris is no philosopher. He's a poor guy lucky enough to have parents
who keep him under roof. He gets a few bucks and does his thing.
He doesn't harm anyone. His eyes are sad.

"My stomach hurts today. I have an ulcer. Do you have any cigarettes to

I had no money on me at all. I had no cigarettes either. He asked for
no money.
He was delighted that I have unneeded brake pads.

"I guess I'd better ride on over to the other gas station now."

I joked (I thought): "Don't ride too fast, Harris" (my bike--with an
electric motor)

"No, I can't ride fast anymore at all." he replied without any trace of

Good night, Harris.

"Good bye"


----One hundred years ago Harris had a counterpart.
What follows is a poem that I'll read to you folks,

then its back to shallower topics
such as my selfish personal interest in ebikes.


A Vanished Calling
very slowly

recited by author/me

A rag man re-
arranged his shuffle
-must look smarter
for rich Mrs. Doudy.

"Any rags today kindly Mizz Doudy?"

"My oldest silks
are too fine

for you."

"Thank you 'for you'
thank you Mizz Doudy."

A rag man re-
arranged his shuffle-
no one to-day adds cloth to his duffle.

He turned to rundown
lackaday lane-where no flowers
grow where a rag man has lain
long under stars-

stirred only by sweeps-

his fibers are rag pa-
per faintly inked

-it is here that he
weeps over all
and forever.

Posted by: Dart Man Oct 12 2006, 06:08 PM
Hey Buzzz, what was the outside temperature though, don't you live up
by the north pole?
Don't you get snow?

Posted by: Reid Oct 12 2006, 06:21 PM
Yeah! BUZZZZ, (Mr. Freeze)

we want to know...

ambient temperatures count for something, ha hahhhh!
Frostbite at the least.

Posted by: Nickf Oct 12 2006, 06:59 PM

36 volts in a standard brushless currie motors is, as far as i know, a
very bad idea. The controller is inside the motor so it may be damaged
by heat, also the fets are, so I'm told, only rated for 30v.

Peeps run at 36 volts by using an external controller with a specailly
rewired currie motor. I was lucky enough to have someone make one for
me, but they can also be brought from http://powerpackmotors.com/

I think it might be cheaper to do it your way. how much is the unite
motor? and will it fit into the old USPD (spoke clip on) drive?

Good to know about the temp that neo magnets degrade I'll have to be
careful of temperature. Knoxie had a cut out at 48 volts and thats what
i'll be running at soon, with a bit of luck.

Very sad poem, but well read. You can tell its real poverty when people
are really happy to get stuff like used brake pads!

Funny just been watching a vid thats kinda related,


Posted by: Buzzz Oct 13 2006, 09:58 AM
Lol... you guys crack me up.....

Yes.. we get winters and snow and - 40 celcius around these parts.. but
during these 3 or so months .. i park my bike and battery pack inside
my cozy igloo !!

Summer months are quite hot.. ( well .. i would call it hot.. some of
you would laugh at the idea of 30 celcius i guess. hehe ) but during
peak summer, i've used and abused both my WE and my c-lyte hubs and
have not yet gotten a controller cut-out or motor failure or even got
close to burning my hand on my motor..

I guess if you rode in the desert up hills full throttle with the
brakes on.. yeah.. you would probably need forced air cooling somehow..

Posted by: csaudio Oct 13 2006, 01:53 PM

I burned up two of the Crave Chopper brushless rear hub motors. They
are advertised as 24v 450w. The first one burned up at 36v. The second
one burned up at 48v. You might think I would have learned with the
fist one, but no, sure didn't.

Neither one smoked, just gave up with a whimper.

Posted by: Reid Oct 13 2006, 06:23 PM
Same as with the first Unite! There was neither smell nor smoke, it
being sealed.
It whimpered (perfect word!) to a final stop.


Buzzz as a young WC Fields:

Reminds me (funny) of a W.C. Fields movie.
Fields, in a Yukon cabin, opens the door to survey the great white howl
Dramatically, with stage histrionics, gravely intoned for comic effect:
"T'ain't a fit night out for man nor beast."
Pause. Then he gets a face full of stage snow.

Subsequently, through the film, every time Fields opens the door again,
"T'aint a fit night out for man nor beast."
Again, an absurd pause.
Fields gets whalloped with obviously fake snow.


Buzzz as Fields, or is it Fields as Buzzz?
up to date and in context

"T'aint no way a hub motor burns"
Pause. A racing bike plumes dense blue smoke.


Fondly kidding,

Posted by: csaudio Oct 14 2006, 05:12 AM
Buzzz's experience is with the good stuff. My Crave choppers were $200
unloaded onto ebay. I consider the purchase a good deal just to get the
chopper frame that has lots of room for batteries. These frames were
made for a battery box in the middle with a locking mechanism.

The Crave hub motors are total junk for adults. If I had left it alone
and just let my 12 yr old ride it, it would probably still be working
at 48v.

Posted by: Reid Oct 14 2006, 10:53 PM
Buzzz and the good stuff: yasss, he likes fine wines, Grey Poupon
Mustard, custom dames and batteries,
all of the finer things...
(I kid because Buzzz is all right!)

I am a GoJo guy here with an overrated motor on an underpriced bike.

The blower: time to get a bird screen over the intake.

Say, a GoJo lid is just the right diameter, and has just enough height
to clear the crown of the fan.
It's been crudely drilled. Painted funny yellow Krylon Fusion. Why? Cos
Fusion bonds to plastic.
And gluey sealant can bond to Fusion. Ugly thing. I got most of the
scrim lopped off with a blade,
though you wouldn't believe it by this picture

I would like to make a featherweight rigid cover for the seatpost rack,
and cover that with bright yellow nylon I have already on hand
(leftover from the kiddie trailer canopy).

The strobe lamp pair? Am thinking to mount them on the ends of
stack-coil spring material, and have them outboard the battery. Sort of
like alien eye stalks. Why? Not to look funny,
but to make the bike appear wider at night. For safety.

Where it stands now, is that the bike is running very good and strong
and relatively silently for this sort of motor. At 17mph, it's just a
sweet hum. That didn't used to be the case.


Posted by: Reid Oct 16 2006, 01:00 PM
Today in Miami: sunny, 75F and dry air.

Have about fifty miles on the bike since the motor cooling mod.

Just now: returned from a run to a LBS 3.7 miles away.
Full throttle, with the exception of stop lights and other hindrances.

On the way out: 25.6 mph max when the batteries were topped.
24 can be relied upon for the first four miles.

The bike rested for twenty minutes while I was in the shop.

On the way home: 24mph, for most of the way. 21 and change for the last
Voltage of the 3x12AH SLA pack upon shut down: 36.4V* (why???)

Cyclometer data of the return trip:
max 24.2MPH
elapsed time 11:37
3.75 miles
av. speed 19.4

Motor case temp: 135 at the top of the motor.
145F at the hot air exit holes.
It is a dry day. I think---I will try a humidification test.

Also: if the hot air coming out is, say 150F, I wonder--what is the
rotor temperature?
200F? Well, the way to find out is this:

-make a hard run.
-get home, shut off the fan.
-remove four small screws
-pop off the brush cover
-take an IR thermo. reading of the rotor.

(this is do-able--but I just hesitate to upset the perfect adjustment
of the motor right yet.
It's running so sweet and nearly silently)

-end report-


Need a DrainBrain!

PSS: After fifteen minutes of resting the pack voltage has drifted up
from 34.4 to 34.8V.
What does that mean? I mean, that I should run "that far" with such an
inefficient motor
at such speeds, and yet still have this much pack voltage available.
I'd expect the pack to poop out very quickly,
if I went out for another ride without a full recharge.

Would you say--should I put 'er on the charger right now,
or let it rest this way for some hours,
and then see how the pack performs?


Posted by: csaudio Oct 16 2006, 01:07 PM
When it 100 degrees outside you can ride to the park and cook your
lunch on the rotor. Ar Ar Ar! : )

Can I have another poem? This one involving you cooking your lunch on
your motor?

Posted by: Reid Oct 16 2006, 01:16 PM
The case is hotter today than when I ran it at night on the quarter
mile track.

However, and this is the big point: the ambient air temperature is
about the same.
BUT the humidity in the air is much less today than it was on that damp
night when
the case ran 108F.

I am still thinking that an excess of humidity will -cool the motor by
perfecting the commutation-.
A long-shot hypothesis, but the clues still point that way.


Can I have another poem?

=A Pome For Brian=

Look, see Brian--
He is tryin'
Out my speedy cruiser bike.

He's in Death Valley
(what a folly!)
Fryin' eggs and ham.

Hey! He's turned to
Baked brown ham goo.

Brian's bacon!
Gosh by golly!
Motor testing's
Very jolly.

Posted by: Aerowhatt Oct 16 2006, 01:49 PM
QUOTE (Reid @ Oct 16 2006, 10:16 AM)
The case is hotter today than when I ran it at night on the quarter
mile track.

However, and this is the big point: the ambient air temperature is
about the same.
BUT the humidity in the air is much less today than it was on that damp
night when
the case ran 108F.

I am still thinking that an excess of humidity will -cool the motor by
perfecting the commutation-.
A long-shot hypothesis, but the clues still point that way.

While humidity may reduce commutation inefficiency a much bigger factor
is the ability of humid air to transport heat. Humid air can transport
multiples of the amount of heat very dry air can. As sweaty humans our
own experience is counter to this fact. We cool ourselves through
evaportion, dry air = good cooling for a sweaty human. However when it
comes to conduction of heat and heat capacity per unit volume wetter is
much better.


Posted by: Reid Oct 16 2006, 02:35 PM
wetter is much better.

Another poet for Voltage Forums.


Holey kick boxer, I would never have thought of that!
Kudos! Tony, that's got to be it.

Water requires a lot of heat to get hot.
Water absorbs much heat.

Bingo: to cool, I will make what we in the USA knew/know as a "swamp
an evaporative pad in my bike's case.

Perhaps some wet cotton gauze stuff laid over the blower's foam filter

Thank you Tony!
Testing will prove the effect for practical manipulation.

test procedure:

run it dry on a dry day like this. record the motor temp.

next wet the humidifying pad(s) and continue.
monitor temperature, see what happens.

Cool! Thanks!

Tony is a genius

Posted by: csaudio Oct 16 2006, 02:50 PM

This is the wrong forum to discuss "practical manipulation". Keep it up
(pun intended) and you will get a PG13 rating. : )

Posted by: Reid Oct 16 2006, 03:03 PM
I hope you enjoyed the kidding poem,
professional audio torture expert Brian:

Fry some tweeter,
not a woofer.

Tweeter's cheaper
--some are "two-fer"

Woofers? Mucho
more o' moolah

ha ha

yr. bad poet friend

Posted by: fechter Oct 16 2006, 03:20 PM
I think you could increase your air flow quite a bit by using a larger
diameter tubing between the blower and the motor. I use stuff that's
about 7/8" ID and as short as possible.

Posted by: Reid Oct 16 2006, 04:26 PM
I do so agree. It was a handy size of hose, and it looks "good".
I can't, unfortuantely, shorten the run-- unless I were to mount the
blower way down low.
That's certainly a possibility for a next step.

Big hose and short run: this is key and I -did- note that you did it
that way for your scooter.

Anyway, you are right.
I've even got a hard right angle for the air flow (at the blower). Not


Posted by: Dart Man Oct 16 2006, 05:51 PM
I know you have your views about "heat" and the black paint theory. I
bet it only works in total darkness. But I'll tell you what, my Dodge
Dart is black and when the sun hits it, it gets so hot, don't even
think about touching it unless you want to fry yourself. I use to have
a thermometer inside and it would read 140 F.

If I was inside that gear motor of yours, I would want everything to be
painted white, and the white air tube or to blow through a white
plastic container full of ice.

Have you ever seen an ice chest that was painted black?

Just my view on the black paint theory.

Posted by: Reid Oct 16 2006, 06:04 PM
That black Dart would get even hotter here.
Hell, my courtyard of brown pavers gets over 160F in mid summer.

But a black object, once removed from exposure to the radiant heat
will cool off faster than if it were a white car.

Black is the -absence- of color. That is, "color" is absent from our
view of black paint
because black -absorbs- all wavelengths of light.

On the other pole: White is the presence of all colors. Our view of a
white object
is subjectively "white" because the white object is
reflecting/rejecting all of the light.

A blue object is of a color which rejects -only- blue light.
Hence, technically, it is "anti-blue" (true in a sense).
Same in kind with all other true colors.
(white and black are not really colors)

If we floodlight a white painted car in blue light only, or red light
only, etc,
it will appear to be that color of the floodlight...
because white -rejects- all colors. If it's in blue light, it will
reject the blue light, etc.
A black (must be high gloss and true black) will appear black in any
color or intensity of light.
Because it -traps- all light wavelengths, particularly infra red.
And black will radiate, emit the heat it has taken on from the sun or
other energy sources;
it will cool off a -lot- faster (the exterior of the car) once the
energy input has ceased.

The effect is called, I think "emissivity". That word sounds fussy; I
didn't believe it when first told about it by another hare-brained
piano tuner many years ago. Slowly, the truth sank in.

White to keep things cool in the sun.
Black to get them hot.

Black to cool things off in the shade.
White to retain warmth.

Moral, which you already know as a black car owner:

If I were an Eskimo
living in a hut of ice
I would not paint it black, no sir !
unless I learned to not-much-mind
ice water dripping down my back.

Posted by: Reid Oct 16 2006, 06:53 PM
addendum: the least emissive "color" is polished silver.

If a bike motor is flushed by cooling air, silver is OK.
But for maximum cooling if it runs warm: a coat of thin black paint.

Paint-too thick- is like a blanket,
so keep it thin. Krylon semi-flat looks good,
is the thinnest sort of spray bomb paint.
It has no resistance to rubbing alcohol or other strong solvents
(mineral spirits won't hurt it). And it's not a tough paint.
But it is thin. And very fast to dry--no tack, like with an alkyd

For a test, take two identical silver colored spoons.
Paint one flat black.

Heat them hot on a skillet.
See how much faster the black one returns to room temperature.
The effect is dramatic.

joke: Gee, now that I think about it, suppose I'll paint all the soup
spoons black.
No more puffing on the spoon's hot contents.


Posted by: Reid Oct 18 2006, 05:07 PM
The bike continues to run very well on 36V.

I'm getting a new seat tomorrow, which will probably require to
relocate the blower.
If I must do this, then I will take good fechter's advice and put the
blower right next to the motor.

Will fabricate a duct of huge size, and re-vent the motor for even more
air flow.

Then, the next step? Bow to speedgreed.

The bike, since I reversed the stem, which brings the bars seven or
eight inches more rearward,
is so stable at speed, that I'd feel perfectly comfortable running it
at thirty per.

To do this I'd have to go to 48V.
I'd need a small, high frequency controller of about ?? amps capacity.

Oh, problem: I don't yet know the current demands of this motor.

So--have just ordered a DrainBrain from Justin. The blue cased model.
I'll try to get photo here of a blue DB case, even though it won't be
of a speedo version.

If it proves to be at all possible ---((with extra cooling))-- to run
the bike at 48V, I will do that.
And if it works out I will try to get a 13 tooth sprocket from Allan
(our Woody who owns Elationebikes) to replace
the stock 11T motor sprocket.

This'll drop the motor rpms.
The higher voltage of 48 will compensate for the torque lost to a 13
tooth sprocket.

Am musing aloud.
Many factors must work out:
=The brushes must be able to handle the current.
=The cooling must be adequate.
=The steel must not be too much over-saturated, that efficiency goes
totally to hell.

But wouldn't it be fun to cruise quite strongly at 25,
and also have 30mph available for mile-or-so bursts?

It's good to run -with- traffic rather than along the pavement edge.

More later.
You'll probably meet my new acquaintance, Iaasac.
He wants an ebike now.
He is unusually...

Posted by: Dom Oct 18 2006, 06:43 PM
Black is Beautiful

Interesting theorys on black Reid -i like the sound of that Krylon as

Should "white -rejects- all colors" be reflects??

Have you a freewheel on the motor? -to want Woody to replace it with

You didn't finish your last sentence -gonna keep us hanging are you?

Cheers Dom

Posted by: Reid Oct 18 2006, 07:41 PM
gonna keep us hanging are you? :)

Not at all. I had to wait until fifteen minutes ago when Isaac Hawkins,
basketball player, arrived to provide night security for "American
Eagle" cllothing's photo-shoot staging area.

The house next door, this afternoon:

Miami is a popular place for movie and commercial makers--the weather
and some of the scenery--
here, I am told it's for a spring catalog shoot. The many people
involved stage from the neighbor's property, to shoot in some nearby
fancypants house.

Isaac is 27 and has just returned from Europe where he played
basketball for the past couple of years on a professional basis.

I like to mention the obvious: Isaac is TALL--- six feet, eight inches.
My bike is a BIG bike for myself, an average 5' 10".
For Isaac? It's a joke.

But it carries him OK.
Now he's really into the idea of having an ebike of his own.


"I tried out a buddy's new scooter last week. I thought that was
fun--one of those little 49CC scooters.
But man! I like this wayyy better!
It feels so good and it's quiet. I want one for sure. I will cruise on
Ocean Drive."
(Miami Beach's cool place to show off youth)

Mr. Hawkins--is riding my bike right now--on loan for this evening.
Hey, why not? It beats his walking one block each way
for him to keep tabs on the photo-shoot properties.
It keeps him from starting up his Isaac-sized Ford pickup truck.

The best way to make ebike converts is by sharing rides with worthwhile
such nice people as Isaac is--a young man on the rise.


I'll address Dom's other points later tonight.


I just heard my bike whizz by outside.
A very big guy is going "whoooeee", and he wears
a mile-wide smile.

Posted by: Reid Oct 18 2006, 08:23 PM
Hello again, Dom. In comedy, as in regular life, timing is essential
for best results.

You said, in regard to black as a heat-rejecting color:

"Black is Beautiful"

lol, Isaac and I will agree.


"Interesting theorys on black Reid -i like the sound of that Krylon as

It's proven fact; this color stuff has all been known and employed for
technical purposes for well over a century. Vacuum tube power plates
are/were blackened for the very good reason that if they were not
blackened, they tended to glow cherry red and ruin the tube by
outgassing. Black is a cooling color because it radiates heat.


"Should "white -rejects- all colors" be reflects??"

Common usage says "reflect".
But "reject" is what it really is, and the words are quite synonymous
here. Good point.


"Have you a freewheel on the motor? -to want Woody to replace it with

No, no freewheel on the Unite motor.

It comes with this keyed-on 11t.
I might like to try Woody's 13t.
The freewheel in his 13t is not really needed though;
the Currie has a freewheel in the coaster hub's left side drive gear.

The curious thing about this Currie freewheel: it is, apparently not a
sprag-type of freewheel.
It makes no click or noise at all. It must be an overunning roller-type
Hard to beat it for reliabilty--so far.

Regarding the old school handlebar reach:

The bike portrait with Isaac, up above, shows the bike's new handlebar
reach--extending back now,
compared against stock:

exampling an early safety bike for its handlbars, ca. 1890.


The longhorn sort of bar makes for "slower" steering,
which makes the bike less nimble for sure, but more stable at high

easy to turn one's head to look behind, while keeping a straight path.

I like the new mod of the bars, for this, and for the great comfort of
leaning back from the bars if so desired.
New Serfas grips are an added boon. Super soft and grippy.

Posted by: Buzzz Oct 18 2006, 09:00 PM
I have a few Nitro powered RC trucks ( Revo 2.5R and an HPI stadium
truck )

They use a "one way bearing" on teh pull start assembly.. no ratcheting
noise but it only goes " one way " .. might be something similar.

Not the best for reliability.. but light-weight.. and silent... and
cheap to replace.

Posted by: Reid Oct 18 2006, 10:00 PM
Hi Buzzz, yes, pretty sure these are all "roller clutches".

Here is where and why the roller clutch was invented:

the first model of Edison's Home Kinetoscope had no take-up reel.
This 1910 machine put movies into schools and homes for the first time.
First generation "safety film" made this all possible. Cellulose
Eastman collaborated with Edison to create a substitute for celluloid
(flammable!) film stock.

Hand cranked, the film went through a slot in its base board, to pile
up in the metal case-stand below.

The film strip is triplexed: three rows of pictures on 35mm stock.
To see the next third, it was required to push a shift lever, then
crank backwards.

The improved model of ca.1911-1914 (I have one), offers the refinement
of a take-up reel.

It is for the take up reel that Edison's ace mechanic, WKL Dickson,
-invented- the roller clutch.
This is the first mechanical device with the overrunning, clickless
roller clutch:


The single, or more likely, double- roller (it's been 25 years since I
had mine apart) is gravity operated,
and not entirely reliable! Imperfect, sometimes it would fail to
grab--or, since the metal is not glass-hard, embedment tends to make it
stick. Film spills over or film gets stuck.
When it works, it's quite a neat little projector.

Sample film "The Panama Canal in 1911"...

Is this about bikes though? Well, it's about how things start in one
place, then travel on to other applications.



Buzzz, thanks for applying your talents to the ever-growing field of
electrical progress.

Our Mr. Edison, and I, thank you...

with grins shared between we three friends.

Time is not a barrier
if we recall the past to life


Posted by: Reid Oct 20 2006, 08:02 PM
VIDEO DEMO of my bike at its future, 48V!!!


I would like to thank my late cousin Tommy for his life

Posted by: Reid Oct 22 2006, 09:07 PM
In the Strobe-O-Cycle thread
Dart Man asked
When you are going to test the range of the Currie? Full and partial

The present three 12/12 SLA gels give about 7miles at full throttle,
being 24mph for the first 3.5 miles or so, then dropping to 22mph until
about mile seven, where the speed falls precipitously. Peukert effect.


Informal test of cruising range at 15mph average speed

The bike was run at moderate speed for 1.5 miles over to the local
school's running track.

There I ran in ovals for an hour and eighteen minutes, holding more or
less to 15mph average.
At times I'd give it a burst of full throttle, for a straight leg of
the track.

It got boring pretty fast---going round and round and round and
round...and round.

19.8 miles on the track until the top speed decreased to 16mph.
Then I called it quits, rested for a minute and ebiked home.

The speed fell off quickly. Stop for a minute. I'd get my 15mph back
again, for a bit...

So, 1.5 miles plus 1.5 miles with pauses, plus 20miles without pause.

Upon return home the open circuit voltage was a misleading 32V.

Clamping the brake lever and opening the throttle wide for a volt-sag
the volts dropped to 20.

Let the bike rest for a half an hour: open circuit volts rose to nearly
and the stall test caught me off guard: a jump forward cos I only
braked the front wheel.
This dumped the bike and myself! (me=stufu)
The batteries had recovered some short-term current delivery capacity;
the stall load volts were 25.

I say, that is proof of the gel cell's limited ion transport
capacity---that the gel cell really suffers from Peukert effect---I
would think it much worse than a wet cell or AGM would be (???is it??)


The three batteries are on charge (in series); and are not balanced,

I will look forward to the coming DrainBrain, and to lonnnng distance
capacity which will be afforded by adding a fourth 12/12.


It occurs to me that if I rig a simple old DPDT knife switch (how cool
is that?) to throw the two pairs of SLAs either into series, or into
parallel, then I can have a thirty-five mile continuous, 16mph
crappy old SLA batteries.

Certainly, the throwing of the switch to parallel will get me home from
a very far place,
after I've run things down in go-fast mode.

Puke on puekert? No, it's puekert that pukes on us.


Now that this Dart Man deeeep discharge has been made, it will be of
interest to myself
to learn whether the batteries come back up to snuff. I sort of know by
"feel" when the
batteries are working OK. Acceleration and top speed tell you a lot.

I am looking for that Drain Brain maybe in two weeks or three.
Blue! Electric blue backlit mojo invented by that magician, Justin!

Posted by: Reid Oct 22 2006, 09:19 PM

After about 30 minutes of rest-- 18mph available for a few blocks
Turn around-come home. Finish speed, 12mph.

It goes on the charger now.

Posted by: Dart Man Oct 22 2006, 09:54 PM
Wow! 20 miles. You sure got a lot more than they advertise it at. Good
Maybe everyone will start timing their charge times now for the deep

By the way, I did paint the outside of a spoon black. I heated them up
and it did cool faster then the one that wasn't painted. You were

Posted by: Dom Oct 22 2006, 10:07 PM
The Unite motor you have pictured only has 9t Reid -same as the 24v
ones i bought.
Did yours come with 11t? And Woody is running a 14t freewheel i think.

Your friend on the bike needs one of your yellow shirts,else he may
damage some SUV and they'll sue him.

Did he buy a ebike?

Cheers Dom

Posted by: Reid Oct 22 2006, 10:36 PM
The Unite motor you have pictured only has 9t Reid -same as the 24v
ones i bought.
Did yours come with 11t? And Woody is running a 14t freewheel i think.

My mistake: yes, it's nine tooth.
Fourteen is liable to be too much of a gear-up
(but I don't know until I try alternate gearing).
Sorry about that!

"Hartford Tommy" was my mate's cousin.
He was not mentally slow--he was just blithe and strangely innocent.
He talked just like I do his voice; only, without "wit".

You can hear more of Hartford Tommy, suave (lol) man-about-town, at
where are found pictures of me in my other lives---
and a nice poem for your children is found there too.

------- comedy sketching:

I met a fellow today who looks like an ebike prospect (joke).
Call him "Jimmy Stufu from Tobago", where he used to live
until they let him go,
apparently for something to do with...poultry?

He meant to say,
"Pardon me sir, I'd like to date your sister. She's a beautiful chick."

About James Stufu: he suffers from an odd, very odd, speech pattern.
It's sort of a stammer (?)...whatever it is,
it's very rare. James, without meaning to do so, adds unneeded
syllables to words
such as "sister".

"Pardon me sir, I'd like to date your sisterblister. She's a beautiful

--------------bada boom

Dart Man: I suppose the range is not remarkable--the third battery,
plus holding down the speed (and current draw) simply allow less of
Matt's Peukert effect?

As for spoons: I should've taken a pair of musical spoons on the test
drive to help pass the time.
Instead of my singing out loud "Heigh Ho, Heigh Ho, It's Round the
Track I Go"

People were looking at me so funny after the fiftieth round of Heigh
Whereas, spoons? They just make a clatter.

lol, laters,

Reid, the wanna-be comic
on an ever-faster ebike

Posted by: Lessss Oct 22 2006, 11:14 PM
\lurk mode off

Hmm has anybody though of cold air cooling? Perhaps a very small
electric compressor(maybe double for a tire pump)? After all you had 12
volts to use up? Or perhaps with a temperature alarm you could trigger
some compressed air cartridges supplimenting the blower for a quick
cool down?

Posted by: Reid Oct 23 2006, 01:49 AM
This thread has gone on for so many pages,
and I've sidetracked with comedy routines and human interest stuff:

Lessss, it's all about air cooling the tiny Unite MY1018 gearmotor.
That's whats enabled higher-than-stock speeds from this evolving bike.
See the earlier pages for the adventures in detail.

Say: One thing that I'd like for cruising, is footrests.
I think less and less of pedaling.

I think of this bike as a true electric motorbike.
The motor, as I rebuilt it, is running very quiet and sweet for a spur
gear motor.
I'm tired of hearing the rear hub freewheel click---the motor is that

By removing the chain (and it's a singlespeed bike run on level
I can enjoy clickless riding (and none of that pesky exercise stuff for
now, ha ha).

But what to do for footrests? The pedals are now idle.

Why not: pull one pedal arm (square type hole) and remount it on the
same plain as the other?
They are those cool looking "beartrap" style pedals. Cheap from Bike

And if I want to alter the pedal height? Just rotate them and arrange
some sort of blocking mechanism.

The plan is reversible, of course.
An advantage is that it makes the bike less attractive to an
opportunistic thief.

Oh, and I've got a hidden kill switch.

About a bike alarm:
There will be a scooter horn mounted soon. It's from TNC scooters.
It's very, very loud--as piercing as a car's horn.

A simple mercury tilt switch in a self-centering inertial gimbal, up
under the seat, will make a fine tamper alarm--again, a hidden switch
will enable/disable the horn alarm.

The horn can be hardwired in such a way (cable or copper tubing) to
make it hard to kill.

So--there are my next trial plans.


Fechter rightly observed that the blower's hose is far too long for
best air delivery results.
Until I re-do the blower neatly, for now it's got -minimal length- of
air ducting (which will become larger soon).

Yes, I put mounted the blower right to the air inlet on the Unite
It looks weird for now, but it works until a time is taken to do it all


Have just mounted the pair of Kool-Stop "salmon" brake pads to the
front brakes.
Next ride will begin to evaluate these much-touted pads.
I got them from Harris Cyclery on the web.
Your LBS probably has them.

If any Currie Cruiser owner are reading this: I found the "Thinline"
model fits my Shimano XTR front brakes the best.

The rear brakes are stock and work fine. Most of the braking power
needs to be at the front anyway.
Let's see if the Kool-Stops really work well after break-in. The stock
pads, and the Shimano's pads were OK, but rarely would lock the front
wheel. It's tough to skid such a big tire as a wide, slick balloon on
dry clean pavement.

I am loving the Bontrager "Big Hanks". I am enjoying the Currie cruise
bike very much.
It's really moto-style now. Weight is not an issue: the bike does not
have to be carried up stairs.
It just rolls.

The chainless trial will probably be temporary.
There are times when I like to pedal, for sure.

end of ramble, almost:

maybe go for a ride on an incomplete battery recharge.
it's nearly 2AM and I am a night owl;
it's the best time to go biking here.
no one is around to get in the way.

commune with the shadows; throw a lot of light.

Posted by: Lessss Oct 23 2006, 02:47 AM
Yeah I was talkin bout your bike.
If the air your blower was pushing in was chilled... either by a small
electric compressor or simply by a compressed air cartridge......

The compressor would compress air then release it. When
the decrease in pressure causes the molecules to slow down. This makes
the air cold. Mount this compressor above your fan blower intake and
you now are blowing cold air instead or warm air. Cooling of the motor
will be more significant.

Posted by: Reid Oct 23 2006, 03:25 AM
Oh, you are ahead of me--thank you for the good idea.

Q: What do you suppose the battery drain of a motor refrigerant system
might be, if from a powered pump? None, if I were to pedal-power a




___no kidding. _____I have to drag and clear the text manually.
signing off until fixed,


Posted by: Reid Oct 23 2006, 06:47 PM
Computer mysteries flummox me.

So do drive gear questions.

Here is a shot of the Currie drive system

Here is a spare OEM 9t drive sprocket identical to the upper gear in
the top picture.

I would like to try gearing up to an 11t sprocket in place of this 9t.

Q: Is there a loose, off-the-shelf 11T sprocket that'd be a good
for a machinist to graft to this existing gear (after cutting off the
9t teeth)?

Welding, I guess?

It is presumed that a graft would be easier to get done
than getting an all-new custom hobbed and bored and heat treated gear.

This little gear appears to be case hardened.

I don't know bike gears and parts. Advice, please?

Posted by: fechter Oct 24 2006, 12:33 AM
It might be easier to find a smaller one that goes on the wheel.

Posted by: Reid Oct 24 2006, 07:11 AM
That's the oddball Currie left side drive roller clutch with integral
gear hobbed on its periphery.

Looking at it closely here in your stead, I don't suppose it'd be
possible to shrink that gear at all.
Oh well.

Thank you very much for the otherwise-good idea.


Posted by: fechter Oct 24 2006, 09:24 AM
OK, another dumb suggestion:
If you want to go faster, why not increase the voltage more.

Another approach would be to take that toasted armature and rewind it
with fewer turns of heavier wire.

Lastly, you could try to advance the timing. I don't really recommend
this, but it will make it faster.

Posted by: Reid Oct 24 2006, 09:47 AM
You've never made an off-base suggestion.

I -will- be going to 48V relatively soon.

First: get the DrainBrain (coming in two weeks, maybe).
Second: get a 48V-capable brush motor controller that'll fit in the
existing cubby.
I think that the Currie 36V red-bike controller is the most likely
candidate. I shall order it sometime soon,
because I can't seem to buy a Razor controller such as Matt recommended
elsewhere--they only sell to registered Razor owners.

Third: DB measurements may tell me whether it's worth gearing up the
bike after the 48V conversion.
With higher gearing I may have higher current draw at wide open
I might have lower current drain at moderate cruising speeds; I just
don't know yet.

Well, it's winter for most members here. There's not a lot of pleasant
weather for biking,
but here in south Florida, I'm fortunate to have great biking days and
nights ahead.

PS: I've bucked the blower right up to the motor for the time being.
I have adequate cooling for sure, to keep the motor alive.

Rewinding the burned armature as you recommend is beyond my present
Dynamic balancing would be another challenge to meet.
And if I optimize a motor for high speeds, then it will not be so good
for low speed torque, will it?

Ah, the limitations---what I have at present is really a pretty good

According to this bike power calculator, if I go much faster than 24mph
the power requirments soar, anyway...


How interesting it will be to have the DB tell -just what is expended-,
in comparison with that speed calculator program.

Apparently, my current power input to the -bike-, at 24mph, is about
400W. Taking into account the motor inefficiency, the battery drain
must be a couple hundred watts higher or more (guessing).

Thanks, always, for your helps.


Posted by: Reid Oct 24 2006, 01:04 PM
A slow day were it not for Steve Head's video adventures.

Let's look at roller clutches--why?

It's now certain to myself that this bike features a roller clutch in
the left side of the coaster hub.
A roller clutch is surely more expensive to produce than a two-sprag
bike freewheel.

So--knowing that Currie does not over-engineer things, why do they
employ roller clutches in all of their electrodrive products?

Logic says it because a properly made/sized roller clutch will handle
shocks of torque that would fail a sprag clutch.

When I run on very rough pavement-- where there is momentary loss of
tire adhesion, the system is felt to take up shocks--in the form of
unloaded accelerations of the rear wheel.

The human cyclist pressing on pedals applies torque differently than a
gearmotor, which has an rotating, inertial lag, and can be overun for
milliseconds or longer, depending upon the load
(thinking this through out loud, is all).

Hence, as the tire re-meets the pavement, the roller clutch comes into
And then the motor "catches up" to the load again, locking the clutch
with a tiny but sharp blow of thrust. A rotary hammer sort of effect.

Owing to the large power inputted by the motor (greater than that of a
bicyclist's muscle power),
it is a jar--and it is presumed to be more punishment for a clutch than
a little sprag clutch with its glass-hard pawl is likely going to want
to endure for very long.

I've about 300 miles on this ebike. This is not much milage yet. The
roller clutch is doing fine, feels smooth and nearly drag-less. It's
nice for its silent action, too. No clicks.

I've found a web page of a USA firm that makes high quality roller
clutches (or -did-)


The products are not instantly applicable to my needs--the "big" roller
clutch that -is- the left side freewheeling cog, is working fine.

But in case there are any bottom bracket drive guys reading this
thread, this firm's product may offer you a needed part for your BB
motor. A roller clutch is one thing not very amenable to making by the
home machinist. It must all be very hard skinned to prevent brinnelling
(and sticking).


(partial image of page--the bottom figures cut off here)

Posted by: v_tach Oct 24 2006, 05:14 PM
You can also use one-way roller bearings if the size of the sprocket
permits. You would need a race of the appropriate material on the motor
shaft. However the one-way bearings are notoriously susceptible to dirt
and contamination.

Here is a setup but with an HDT 5mm pulley...
Attached Image
Posted by: Reid Oct 26 2006, 09:11 PM
Hello and thank you, V tach for adding in your experience.


Say, bought a mini digital camera yesterday- a Casio EX-S770
It does pretty good video.

If I get DSL and mount the cam to the bike I can share some beginner's
Now that it's winter for most folks more north, I could share some bike
at 23 or 24mph.

-See Al Capone's last house, or where Stallone used to live--and the
Bay and the Grove, etc.
Old to me but new to others, I guess.

Simplest mount I've seen:


Ah, but then there, on the bars, there'd be no view of the DrainBrain.
Simultaneous view of the data plus the road scene might make a better

Has anyone tried to make a sort of steadycam system here?
I wonder if the top tube of my bike wouldn't be the best place to video
it would allow a simultaneous view of the DrainBrain screen and the
road ahead.
It should be a pretty steady place for the camera, much moreso than on
the handlebar.

Or should I mount the thing on my chest?
I dunno about this stuff.

I enjoy Steve's, Buzzz's and Knoxie's videos--and all of them that I
can catch.
Gotta get off dialup, though. It's such a pain.

Thanks for your steadier-camming ideas,



(might make a good bike 'brand name' for the blue mule)


PS: fechter, see that I've minimized the blower's tube run?
It's jam-up to the motor now.
A temporary kluge.

Posted by: Reid Oct 27 2006, 02:09 AM
Thanks to Swordman for sending me notice:

MY1018 motors are now in stock at TNC scooters

They are there (at TNC scooters) for $45.
The only problem with them is that they take a 10 tooth sprocket for a
#420 chain.
That ispretty useless to us, but at the very least, we can order the
sprockets from Oatley Electronics in Australia.



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The picture at the TNC webpage does not match the drive description--'zat scooter chain?
How odd.
Well, I will ask Chris why it's not the bike-drive motor we wanted.
It is the exact gear motor, but with a useless drive sprocket.

edit: turns out the illustration was wrong; not the motor


For myself, I'm set: I have a spare sprocket from the first motor that
I burned out.
I'll get my spare motor now, doll it up just right, and put it on the

and perfect the (increase the holes) ventilation scheme for the present

I'll take a bunch of how-to pictures.


Thanks to Swordman for the good news.


Posted by: Reid Oct 27 2006, 02:26 AM
Philosophy of why I champion this sort of drive, moreso than the hub
motor systems:

If we only e-ride, there's no difference between them--not really.

BUT if we pedal-assist or power assist our pedaling,

The bb or currie drive -freewheels- and does not contribute to the
inertia of the wheel.

That is to remind, that we know how manual bikers value light road
In great contrast, many of us have a 15 pound, non-freewheeling hub
motor in the wheel.


Pedal strokes are not smooth applications of power.
There is an accelerative thrust action from human power.
The rider's push is not equal through his leg thrust-distance.
There is only smooth rotary thrust from an electric motor.

A regular bike under power goes along by a series of power-puffs, so to
If the bike wheel is loaded with mass,
he/she must overcome that rotating inertia--
must accelerate that heavy wheel again and again with each pedal
It's not the same to have mass in the wheel as it is to have that mass
on the bike.
It's dynamic resistance to changes of velocity--rotational inertia v.
simple inertia.

or am I not thinking this out rightly?
(not sure without confirmation from wiser heads).

In summation:

In the Currie or in the bb type of drive, etc. , these thrusts
simply unload the motor's chain or drive gears or freewheel.

The pedal-power acceleration of the Currie, bb, etc. bike's wheel
is -not impeded- by its drive system.
This does not obtain in a hefty direct drive hub motored bike.

A small point, but it helps to understand why
hub motor bikes are such particular pigs to pedal.

Posted by: Swordman Oct 27 2006, 10:35 AM
QUOTE (Reid @ Oct 27 2006, 02:09 AM)
Well, I will ask Chris why it's not the bike-drive motor we wanted.


I sent him an email asking about the weird 10 tooth sprocket when I saw
the motors were in Wednesday, but I haven't gotten a response back from
him yet. Didn't stop me from purchasing a couple though. Always nice to
have backups, especially when you can get them shipped from Tennessee
and not Australia (assuming you are in the US of course).

Posted by: Swordman Oct 27 2006, 10:51 AM
QUOTE (Reid @ Oct 27 2006, 02:09 AM)
For myself, I'm set: I have a spare sprocket from the first motor that
I burned out.


Does Currie sell the 9-tooth sprockets as a replacement part?

Posted by: Dom Oct 27 2006, 12:37 PM
QUOTE (Reid @ Oct 23 2006, 06:47 PM)
Computer mysteries flummox me.

So do drive gear questions.

I would like to try gearing up to an 11t sprocket in place of this 9t.

Q: Is there a loose, off-the-shelf 11T sprocket that'd be a good
for a machinist to graft to this existing gear (after cutting off the
9t teeth)?

Welding, I guess?

It is presumed that a graft would be easier to get done
than getting an all-new custom hobbed and bored and heat treated gear.

This little gear appears to be case hardened.

I don't know bike gears and parts. Advice, please?

Hi Reid - I looked the other nite for more tooth replacement but no

You could be right -welding an 11t on could be an option -i think i
bought one ages ago -will have a look and see if it will work.

Can you tell the size thread of your left side freewheel or one way
bearing clutch -if it's a standard thread - Fechters suggestion for
less teeth on that would be the easier way to go.

I've hammered the freewheels on my setup and only slight bearing damage
on the motor freewheel has occurred (only because lockring came loose
and i didn't tighten for a few days)

As for your camera setup -if you mount on the bars you should get as
good a quality as Knoxies -which look OK to me.
I recall seeing one of Steves with the cam mounted low on the front
fork -brilliant!!
Chestcam is the steadiest i think.
Getting good enough quality to show the DrainBrain would require hi-res
Google video (people would have to download it)

Swordman -Oatley in Aus sell the 9t as spare - is it a pain to order
from them?

Cheers Dom

Posted by: Swordman Oct 27 2006, 01:08 PM
QUOTE (Dom @ Oct 27 2006, 12:37 PM)
Swordman -Oatley in Aus sell the 9t as spare - is it a pain to order
from them?


No, my order of this motor, controller, and throttle from Oatley went
fine. I'm just trying to see if there are suppliers closer to home to
avoid paying the shipping from Australia (although on a few sprockets I
can't imagine the shipping is that much).

I am also thinking about the welding idea. Seems I could braze one of
the useless sprockets I get with the new motors onto the back of a
1-speed BMX freewheel. The only problem I see with that is unless I put
a piece of tubing in the freewheel to support it on the shaft, the
freewheel will have sideways loading on it which will probably bend it.

Do you think the above idea is feasible, and how would you go about it?

Posted by: Dom Oct 27 2006, 01:24 PM
Hey Swordman
You still after a l/h freewheel adapter? I was going to make a couple
when i was doing my ebike -but run out of time.
I have a long weekend coming up soon -i will make a couple -Overton
wanted one as well -haven't heard from him on here for awile though!
Welding freewheel onto existing cog or motor may be a messy thing i
thinks!! LOL

I could probably make a 11t cog for Reid as well while using the same
tooling if that is the size you want for sure Reid?? It will only be
inhouse heatreated though!! (oxytorch/oil & water-dip)

Cheers Dom

Posted by: Reid Oct 27 2006, 03:16 PM
Hello Dom,

what a super offer from a nice guy--to help us out by giving up his
to do fiddly stuff for others.

The Currie cruiser's freewheel gear is integral with the freewheel.
No shrinking possible.

On the other end,
if the solid steel Unite sprocket could be reformed into a 10 or 11t
cog, great,
but do you even have a Unite 9t sprocket to work from? If not I could
airmail you my spare.

What a great offer--but I won't hold you to it.
And it's an experiment--can't know it'll be the final solution.
But I think that a modest gearing-up will be good for my bike's top


As for the camera: yes, it may be that a chest mount is the best deal.
With pan focus I think I can may get usable images of the DB. by
leaning forward...
or maybe I can bungee the camera around my trunk, so by one free hand
pull it forward and tilt it to
catch the DB screen. Time and experiments are now in order.

Thank you for wading through my rambling posts.
Thank you for taking care of your e-brothers too.
Swordman and Overton are in greater need than myself,
but woooot, I'd love to try an 11t non-freewheel sprocket!

Reido speeedo!

Posted by: Reid Oct 27 2006, 03:38 PM
A small performance report of one of last night's runs.

Goal: to see if the Unite on 36V 12/12 SLA supply would run me to Key
Biscayne's causeway bridge and back.

The main bridge of this causeway over water offers the steepest
prolonged grade in this area.
It is a stated, published 4.5% grade of about (?) 1/4 mile (?) from
base to summit.
I forgot to measure it, but will do so on the next run.

Miami is otherwise quite flat.

I made the test run at three AM to avoid traffic and because I am a
night rider anyway.

By the time I'd reached the bridge
the bike had clocked about five miles.
I had lightly but persistantly pedal-assisted the motor at a goodly
clip of nearly 20mph,
to save battery for the bridge climb test.

When the up-grade of bridge commenced the throttle was snapped wide
I ceased all pedal assist.
The bike promptly accelerated to 18mph.

Halfway up or so, the speed began to drop steadily, surely due to SLA
voltage sagging.
By the time the crest was about reached, the speed had flumped down to
14mph; and was holding.

I turned the bike around and with full power on, power/coasted back
down, reaching a top speed of 29.6; beyond about 27mph, the motor was
entirely overunning and not aiding the velocity. The last two or three
mph of top speed were purely coasting by gravity.

The bike normally runs these days, about 24mph on the level
(due to battery condition which is very gradually deteriorating).
The bike and batteries have accumulated 350 miles of use.

It is clear that the present speed-limiting factors are
available battery voltage whilst at top speed, v. back emf of the
fast-spinning motor.

Because the spread between present top speed, and present -potential-
top speed,
are so nearly close (3mph diff), it's thought that a modest gearing up
of this drive may increase maximum road speed by a couple mph (maybe).

And for sure, when I bump on up to 48V in a month or so from now,
the taller gearing will indeed give a higher top speed than would
otherwise by available
from a little gearmotor severely winding out in rotor rpm.

So, this ride last night was 5.5 miles to the bridge summit,
and then a motor-only speeding home
at full throttle, all the way except for a traffic light stop or two.

Speed on the return leg was a shade under 24mph at first,
slowly falling from that as I got to within 2 miles from home.
By the time of return, the max speed was just barely 21mph.

Data from the cyclometer:

elapsed time, 40 minutes 17 sec.
trip distance, 11.19 miles
av. speed, 16.6 (includes all stops and pauses)

bike weights about 110 lbs at present (est).
myself, about 150 lbs
There was some headwind at times,
and a brisk crosswind and some headwind going up

Rickenbacker Causway main bridge--the road to Key Biscayne

Posted by: Swordman Oct 27 2006, 05:17 PM
QUOTE (Dom @ Oct 27 2006, 01:24 PM)
Hey Swordman
You still after a l/h freewheel adapter? I was going to make a couple
when i was doing my ebike -but run out of time.
I have a long weekend coming up soon -i will make a couple -Overton
wanted one as well -haven't heard from him on here for awile though!


I was just trying to think of ways that a person without the machinery
you have to fabricate things can get a freewheel attached to the MY1018
motor. I appreciate the offer, but I was not requesting any work on
your part, just whether you think it would be feasible to go about it
the way Reid and I were thinking. I don't want you to spend your
weekend at work. Get out and enjoy your bike.

Now, if you are there and are going to be making them anyway, then that
is a different matter. If it doesn't take you much time, then I would
appreciate the part. You might want to make a few of them and start
your own "Dom's E-Bike Adapter, Mounting Brackets, and Stuff" business.

Posted by: Dom Oct 27 2006, 11:05 PM
Hey Swordman Reid -won't take a whole weekend LOL Work is a major part
of my life and i do enjoy it in the main (hope that doesn't sound too
I do have one of these motors to use as a future project so parts will
probably come in handy.Will PM when done.

Reid - Here is a chestcam screenshot of one of my vids

user posted image

I see you are enjoying your cam -vids have to be next!!

Don't know if you remember "Rural Roads with Rodger" (he joined up here
after heaps of response to his crackup video)
He had some brilliant video ideas using a swingarm to vid himself while

Cheers Dom

Posted by: Reid Oct 27 2006, 11:38 PM
Is -that- how Roger did it? Amazing.

Wonderful chest cam technique, Dom,

Link me to one of your videos, please?
I will wait ten hours for dial up to download it.

My problem with Google video in conjunction with Windows Vista Beta:
the two are not yet quite right together.
If I don't view the video as it downloads, in snippets as it were,
once the video is fully downloaded, I've lost it: Google -insists to
put my computer to unload the next video. So I get like one-shot to see
the video.

But I likea yor bike!

Old joke:

Thrifty, very thrifty old Scotsman walks into a bar,
groaning in great, evident pain:

"oooo. owwwww"

Barkeeper asks, "What the matter, old fellow?"

"I've got yooors."

Barkeep: What's 'yoors'?

Scotsman, instantly all well: Thanks! Make it a scotch--a double!

---(parable of the drunk and of the parts-begging ebiker, me)

mo' vids, Mr. Dom, pls!

I've got yooooooors, lol!

Posted by: Swordman Oct 28 2006, 10:46 AM
QUOTE (Reid @ Oct 11 2006, 04:55 PM)
Before the rebuild this motor was notably noisier than the original
that came with the bike.

I just filled the gear case with Valvoline synthetic bearing grease.
One shot seems to be enough.

The shafts now have their bearing cemented to them
The bearing seats in the castings were given a smear of a synthetic,
rubber glue (oil and grease proof stuff).

This motor is positively quieter than its predecessor.
It makes but a fraction of the whine that it made a few days ago before
the teardown.

Hey Reid,

I was wondering what, in your opinion, did the most good to reduce the
motor's noise? Working on the bearings, or the type of grease you put
in the crankcase? Mine's a bit noisy. I tried changing out the grease a
while back, but it is still just as loud.

Posted by: Swordman Oct 28 2006, 10:57 AM
QUOTE (Dom @ Oct 27 2006, 11:05 PM)
Hey Swordman Reid -won't take a whole weekend LOL Work is a major part
of my life and i do enjoy it in the main (hope that doesn't sound too
I do have one of these motors to use as a future project so parts will
probably come in handy.Will PM when done.


A man who enjoys his job. I hope I get to that point some day. Smile

What type of lefthand freewheel are you using on your MY1018? I found
these two ACS Southpaw in 14 and 16 tooth versions with 1.37" x 24tpi
LH threading. Are these type similar to what you are using?


Posted by: Dom Oct 28 2006, 11:34 AM
Hey Swordman
I have both the ACS 14t l/h (M30 thread)
And Odyssey 13t l/h M30 thread

You'd be better going for the smallest tooth possible -then can use a
smaller chainring (plus i don't want to buy a l/h 1.375" 24TPI
freewheel for checking thread fit! lol )

Didn't know that the 14t could use the larger thread -the one i have is
so compact already with the 30mm thread!
They do sell the ACS 14t with metric as well
Tell us which brand you get as there is variation in thread fit

Reid -Link to 2 1/2 min vid (first chestcam effort)

Cheers Dom

Posted by: Swordman Oct 28 2006, 11:58 AM
QUOTE (Dom @ Oct 28 2006, 11:34 AM)
Hey Swordman
I have both the ACS 14t l/h (M30 thread)
And Odyssey 13t l/h M30 thread

You'd be better going for the smallest tooth possible -then can use a
smaller chainring (plus i don't want to buy a l/h 1.375" 24TPI
freewheel for checking thread fit! lol )

Didn't know that the 14t could use the larger thread -the one i have is
so compact already with the 30mm thread!
They do sell the ACS 14t with metric as well
Tell us which brand you get as there is variation in thread fit

Reid -Link to 2 1/2 min vid (first chestcam effort)

Cheers Dom


I don't want to make it any harder on you, I'm just trying to
understand what I would need. There's enough variation in bike parts to
make your head explode. So, just make the adapters to the specs that
are easiest on you and then please tell me what freewheel to buy and
please provide a link to somewhere I can buy it.

Posted by: Dom Oct 28 2006, 12:28 PM
Hey Swordman -
If you go to the link you provided ,they have the Odyssey 13t l/h
metric which i have a spare of for testing thread fit.


You get that and all will be fine.

Cheers Dom

Posted by: Reid Oct 28 2006, 03:59 PM
QUOTE (Swordman @ Oct 28 2006, 10:46 AM)
QUOTE (Reid @ Oct 11 2006, 04:55 PM)
Before the rebuild this motor was notably noisier than the original
that came with the bike.

I just filled the gear case with Valvoline synthetic bearing grease.
One shot seems to be enough.

The shafts now have their bearing cemented to them
The bearing seats in the castings were given a smear of a synthetic,
rubber glue (oil and grease proof stuff).

This motor is positively quieter than its predecessor.
It makes but a fraction of the whine that it made a few days ago before
the teardown.

Hey Reid,

I was wondering what, in your opinion, did the most good to reduce the
motor's noise? Working on the bearings, or the type of grease you put
in the crankcase? Mine's a bit noisy. I tried changing out the grease a
while back, but it is still just as loud.

Hi Swordman,

Doubt the grease type (no oil, please, it will seep into the motor)
can make the motor quieter than it is already.

Mine got quiet(er) by locking-in some shaft-loose bearings.
And maybe even of more use: I took care to manually align
the brush-end motor endplate to obtain the least-noisey
running whilst unloaded on 12V.

That is, the covers (both ends) have a few,
like maybe .010" of sideslip adjustability.
The m/f fits of the castings are generously loose.

The effect of cover slip is to tilt the rotor a tiny bit
this way or that, just very very slightly.
That can stop a magnet rub against armature steel.
But more particularly, it's the way to slightly cheat
to compensate for imperfect mesh
of pinion gear to driven gear.

Find the rub-free, best-centerd armature position
with the driven gear =uninstalled=. You need not fit the brushes for
this test.
A paper stickied to the magnets (like stickynotes paper) would tell you
where rotor steel is rubbing near a magnet.
This'd also be one way to truly centralize the rotor
(build up layers of tape or paper
to tell-tale out a rubbing spot)

Next step, after reinserting brushes, and with just a film of grease on
the driven gear,
install the brush cover
and idle the motor on 12V or so.
(clamp the motor or it jumps)

-one- particularly quiet postion was found.
Then snug the cover screws on down.

This test was done before stuffing the grease case with grease;
I had only a smear of grease on the gears
so i could hear the mesh-whine note best.

--Also: the running in process on the bike seems to quiet down the gear
noise for a further hundred miles.

Expect that these motors will be variable in noise output, one
even if, say, I had set them all up myself.

Model T transmissions are the very same way.
We just cannot predict which ones will be super quite and which will
whine (T's).
Some are amazingly silent.
Others are like your Unite, can be coffee grinders, yet wear just fine
for endless miles.
Mine was a coffee mill. Now it still whines, but really I think it's
perhaps about as quiet as a big C'lyte hub motor, adjudging by video
soundtracks I've heard.

Posted by: Swordman Nov 1 2006, 03:32 PM
Hi all,

Got my MY1018Z motors from TNC Scooters today and they have, as far as
I can tell, the same 9-tooth sprockets that Oatley sells them with.
Tonight, when I have time to test the sprocket with a bicycle chain,
I'll confirm it. Then I'll inform them that they have the wrong info on
their web site.

Posted by: Swordman Nov 1 2006, 10:27 PM
9-tooth sprockets are the same as the Oatley motors and both motors
work fine.




Thanks Tyler,