Falco e-Motors

[miro13car]

I had no doubt FALCO would perform excellent.
Impressive results for just 36V 500W drive.
This must be super efficient DD hub drive , no doubt using FOC method of control and feald weakening like EPLUS .
STG in USA design studio delivered again.
Especially zero cogging in low speeds .
Was your kit shipped directly from INDIA?
What kind of cells are used in console for wireless and how long they will last.

 

[Bike_on]

I had no doubt FALCO would perform excellent.
Impressive results for just 36V 500W drive.
This must be super efficient DD hub drive , no doubt using FOC method of control and feald weakening like EPLUS .
STG in USA design studio delivered again.
Especially zero cogging in low speeds .
Was your kit shipped directly from INDIA?
What kind of cells are used in console for wireless and how long they will last.

Miro-
I am just getting use to the system on my road bike. Braking is better than expected, and regen works well, but it is a pain to dial it down, slow down, then dial it back up. I am testing the system and giving some feedback back to Falco. First improvements would be a preset regen level which is active by pushing (-) button once and deactive when pedalling resumes.

I do not have a CA hooked up, but after 23 miles of riding, I had over half the battery gauge shown to be left.

Falco has a "Cruise" mode, where yes, they phase advance and enable assist past 20mph. This requires signing waivers.

Yes, zero cogging torque. Rolls like a gem.

I live in DC area and met Rakesh with my bike. He had it for a week. He had inventory and spoked up a wheel with black rims/spokes (Special request).

What is awesome about Falco is FLEXIBILITY. I am allowed to go into the controller and tailor the motor response to my preferences. They gave me a serial cable and would need to download software.

Cells in console: rechargeable Li-ion. It has a USB cable to charge it. Take it off and charge at a computer/wall.

The system is of good quality, with the Console being the least developed. I already pinged on Falco about the viewing contrast and small letters/numbers. Using it is not intuitive. I think I can use a USB mini stick to record data, but have not pursued.

I am excited about Falco developing +ANT power to go along with their HR. I can then use my GArmin Edge 500 to record power, HR, speed, elevation, temp and display vs time. Garmin already has a nice web GUI to upload results and share. Getting recorded info/data out of the Falco consol is tbd.

What is the STG in USA you referred to? I know Rakesh helped/did design Wavecrest and E+. This Falco design (Made in India) is bigger in Europe.
http://www.teamhybridebikes.com/

Dan

 

[miro13car]

STG - Strategic Technology Group which designed legendary Tidal Force ,Eplus and now FALCO
They have labs in India also
Rakesh is the lead engineer there and CEO

 

[Bike_on]

Morning ride from McD's to Work. 11 miles
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/341513520

Evening from work to home ~ 17 miles
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/341513513

Posted are two rides from Wednesday.
These were in one day, from one charge on Falco Battery, total about 28 miles. LED display said 1/2 was used, hard to tell actual. 11.4(11.6 corrected)ahr battery.

The console does display battery voltage. However, it also detects ANT+ HR, and then does not show battery. I'm not sure how to toggle back to battery.

Comments: Battery is a LiMnO chemistry. It does tail off and response to pedal force lessens after 10-12 miles, have to push more or use 34T lower sprkt.

Turbo mode tops out at 20mph. Going to Cruise mode (in order to maintain 20+) after 20 miles is difficult, legs get tired and I need the 34T to activate Turbo for a full power response. Speed is limited then to about 22-23mph in top gear/lower sprlt and spinning 90+ rpm. I can't maintain the 25-26mph like a fresh charge because the system does not respond in top gear the same, after battery voltage declines. Fresh charge I can spin up to 32-34mph on flat, pushing it with motor assist.

D

 

[Bike_on]

The mod required 2 adapters for the CA, which has powerpole connectors.

Initial ride...

+5 mode saw maybe 20A peak, 700W. Turbo saw 30A!, 1100+ watts peak then tail off. Regen worked well, 400W max or so.

 

[Bike_on]

The addition bumped my weight from 39.8lb to 41.2 lb.

The addition is a little bulky. Road bike parts are tight on clearance and it remains to be seen of clipin shoes will work.

 

[remf]

That turned out great Dan! Looks fantastic and the Falco motor sounds mighty impressive. 34 mph, zero cogging & 41 lb. 8)

No torque arm needed or maybe it's on the other side?

 

[ambroseliao]

Hey Dan,

I'm a bit confused. You say that the top speed is limited to 20mph in Turbo mode. However you were able to get 34-36 mph. Was there any regen above 20mph? Also, did you think about swapping the connectors on the CA itself to avoid the adapters which might introduce some additional resistance?

Do you think that the bottle battery is limiting the performance of the system?

Overall, what's your impression of the motor?

Ambrose

The mod required 2 adapters for the CA, which has powerpole connectors.

Initial ride...

+5 mode saw maybe 20A peak, 700W. Turbo saw 30A!, 1100+ watts peak then tail off. Regen worked well, 400W max or so.

 

[Racer_X]

Nice, Are you using a torque arm/plate on this build? Regen is notorious for ruining dropouts.

 

[Bike_on]

There are two "torque nuts" on each side of the axel. You can see one of them in the last pic between the outer nut and the frame drop out.

 

[Bike_on]

Hey Dan,

I'm a bit confused. You say that the top speed is limited to 20mph in Turbo mode. However you were able to get 34-36 mph. Was there any regen above 20mph? Also, did you think about swapping the connectors on the CA itself to avoid the adapters which might introduce some additional resistance?

Do you think that the bottle battery is limiting the performance of the system?

Overall, what's your impression of the motor?

Ambrose

The mod required 2 adapters for the CA, which has powerpole connectors.

Initial ride...

+5 mode saw maybe 20A peak, 700W. Turbo saw 30A!, 1100+ watts peak then tail off. Regen worked well, 400W max or so.

Ambros_

I misspoke. ASSIST in Turbo tops out at 20mph. Turbo is a more sensitive torque response and gives full power to accelerate up hills. It "Boosts" for about 3-4seconds and turns off. If I spin hard enough, it willmaintain boost, but only up to 20mph.

I made adapters in order to "save" the CA originial wiring. I hope the CA is temporary for Falco+Gravity. I'd like to remove it and all the wiring. 3 speed sensors! Howevere, it is cool to see it turn ON when I switch on the battery. Without it, there is no indication that the battery is on.

The battery and motor wiring is 14awg. For 30A pulses, I prefer 12awg. The Delphi adapters/connectors were small for my wire insulation, but I used some cheap red/black cable (12awg, stranded) with a soft/thick insulator. A thinner insulation would have been easier to use.

I get assist up to 34mph+ in CRUISE mode. No limit. As long as my power can be sensed beyond the wind and friction, the motor assists. Granted, I'm using 700x28 street tires and a light bike, it rolls.

Overall, what's your impression of the motor? My first real DD, non-geared motor. Actually, I do have a 600W WE slug...no comparison. If I wire up the throttle and use the direct drive option (Removing the oscillation profile of a pedelec) then I will see and feel the motor's power more directly. Motor has been strong and impressive and not hot after I ride...but warm.

 

[Bike_on]

Hey Dan,


Do you think that the bottle battery is limiting the performance of the system?

Ambrose

quote]

Humm, I would say no. Power is there. I need to tweek the torque response to give more power under steady state (Use more juice if you will). However, the voltage drop at 30A today was almost 5V (.133 ohm). COuld be CA wiring + internal battery wiring? I can only compare that to my previous 20 Ahrs Optibike battery and a 10ahr Lifepo4 from ebikes.ca. The Opti was less than .100 and the lifepo about the same to higher.

 

[Bike_on]

Commuted to work with CA, first time. Moderate effort due to monitoring and fiddling with Garmin sensors. I also have to be careful with heel hitting the cable bundle down low. I might need to re-bundle them.

For 17.8 miles, battery use was 8.8 whr/mi , averaged 20.5mph, 4.15ahr, 156.5 whr. Battery spec 11.4ahr (11.6 corrected). decent 1155ft, ascent 902ft. cadence 70rpm ave, HR 114 ave. Average battery power: 181W,ave motor power: 163W, est @90% eff.

 

[ambroseliao]

That's excellent info. Thanks Dan.

 

[Tominfaribo]

Included attachment is a review on my purchase of a Falco System. In short I would purchase one again.

 

[ambroseliao]

That's a nice write-up. Have you convinced others to buy a similar setup?

 

[Bike_on]

Tom-

Nice write up, thanks. I hope to see a few more independent reviews.

Battery details:A label on the battery says: "Li ion, 36V, 11.6Ahr/418Whr, Continuous discharge current 15A, Pulse discharge current 18A (10 min), max charging current 2.35A."

Charger Details:I think the charger is silent and has a single, rounded connector. It gets warm-hotish. It may be a linear supply rectified from the 120Vac. No adjustment pots.
model CP100L-1002
output 42V, 2.35A
input 100-240Vac, 50-60hz, 1.5A.

 

[ambroseliao]

Doing a little research, it looks as if the cells internally are Panasonic NCR18650PD Li-ion High Current 10A batteries in a 10S4P configuration. Each cell is rated for 10A continuous and 18A peak discharge for 10 minutes. With the cells in a 4P configuration. You saw 30A max current during your ride so the spec listed on the battery case is inaccurate. Since it's a 4S battery, it should be able to deliver more than twice what you were drawing. Not sure about the BMS though. It could be a very conservative design.

The charger is a universal (100-240V) charger and is also conservative for the batteries to not stress them.

Thanks for the info!

 

[ambroseliao]

Dan,

One other thing I noticed on the Hxb BB 11.6A battery is the weight.
http://www.falcoemotors.com/?page_id=1538

It's listed at 2.5Kg or 5.5 pounds! Can that possibly be correct?

Ambrose

 

[Tominfaribo]

Ambro...
Not trying to convince anyone. I'm not a sales rep for Falco and I paid listed pricing on the web. My brother stated that I made an excellent purchase, But hasn't pulled the trigger He would need to buy 2 units. The other couple we were with stated they would possibly be interested in a year. I sometimes wonder if most notice I have an EBike. They might think the water bottle battery is a strange iced water bottle or something. Guess I could make a huge sticker and put Super Water Cooler on it to stealth it a little more. No one has asked about it yet but the trail up north are pretty much your own.
I've put on several trips since we are back home and same results as the review. We cruise at a constant 15mph or so on flat terrain. Its great to have the wind pushing into your face on calm days and it helps to keep me cooler. My wife loves it too, as she now doesn't have to wait for me. One day I'm sure she'll want one. Bike-on is stirring my interest in the Garmin watch. I gave my wife one a couple of years ago but she doesn't run much anymore.
Bike-on. How low do you think the voltage will show/go before I run out of assist?
Anyone have a good idea where to put a water bottle now that is accessible while I ride it?

 

[Bike_on]

Ambro...
Not trying to convince anyone. I'm not a sales rep for Falco and I paid listed pricing on the web. My brother stated that I made an excellent purchase, But hasn't pulled the trigger He would need to buy 2 units. The other couple we were with stated they would possibly be interested in a year. I sometimes wonder if most notice I have an EBike. They might think the water bottle battery is a strange iced water bottle or something. Guess I could make a huge sticker and put Super Water Cooler on it to stealth it a little more. No one has asked about it yet but the trail up north are pretty much your own.
I've put on several trips since we are back home and same results as the review. We cruise at a constant 15mph or so on flat terrain. Its great to have the wind pushing into your face on calm days and it helps to keep me cooler. My wife loves it too, as she now doesn't have to wait for me. One day I'm sure she'll want one. Bike-on is stirring my interest in the Garmin watch. I gave my wife one a couple of years ago but she doesn't run much anymore.
Bike-on. How low do you think the voltage will show/go before I run out of assist?
Anyone have a good idea where to put a water bottle now that is accessible while I ride it?

Tom,

Glad you are making the most of your hub.

My Garmin is an Edge 500 for bikes. It mounts on the bars, not a watch.

My power measurements are coming from a CA I installed in line with the battery to motor/controller.

Dan (aka bike_on)

 

[Bike_on]

Dan,

One other thing I noticed on the Hxb BB 11.6A battery is the weight.
http://www.falcoemotors.com/?page_id=1538

It's listed at 2.5Kg or 5.5 pounds! Can that possibly be correct?

Ambrose

Ambrose,

I did a weigh-in with the battery: with/without method. Diff: 5.8lbs pretty close. Accuracy 0.2lb.

 

[Tominfaribo]

Answered my own question.
Saturday we put on 47 miles I left the console at +1 for the entire trip. Used turbo a couple of times. The battery went from 30 volts to LO setting And then ran out at about the 45 mile mark. I believe it went from LO to no power in just a couple of miles. So I had to use my own power and switched to +0 for about a 1/2 mile to reach a 1/4 mile down hill. then used -1, Plus some of my own power to recharge the battery enough to bring the battery back to life and make the last smaller hill home. The advantage of +0 is it regens while pedaling but provides no assist. I have been using the -1 regen only for braking down the steeper hills but it might make a bigger difference than I thought. I never thought the battery would regen enough to actually supply power again. Towards the bottom of the down hill the console was bouncing between 31 and 32 volts.
Here's Rakesh reply on Regen:
Regen is active all the time. Any time energy is going back to the battery for a fraction of a time, the regen indicator comes on. Although while riding it is quite low. In -1 to -5 modes, regen is intentional as motor becomes a generator. Steeper the hill or harder the pedaling, more the regen. However regen stops if battery voltage exceeds 43V in 36V models and 55V in 48V models.

 

[Racer_X]

The most common question I get from people is: Does it charge when you pedal?
Sure..... except I don't have that option is only is available in a Falco e-Motors

The advantage of +0 is it regens while pedaling but provides no assist.

Regen is active all the time. Any time energy is going back to the battery for a fraction of a time, the regen indicator comes on. Although while riding it is quite low. In -1 to -5 modes, regen is intentional as motor becomes a generator. Steeper the hill or harder the pedaling, more the regen. However regen stops if battery voltage exceeds 43V in 36V models and 55V in 48V models.

 

[Bike_on]

Bike changes:

1. I added a throttle to my Falco+Gravity road bike.
2. I also added a topeak rack and now I can ride w/o a pack pack. The extra weight in the back was noticed when standing and pedalling.
3. I also added a Cree 6 LED with small 4ahr battery..weight is creeping up and the bike feels a little cramped.
4. Note about CA: The extra CA wiring got re-done due to close interference with cranks/pedals. The wiring is not as clean as the pure pedelec/no CA build, but the CA data is invaluable.

Pedelec mode only: battery usage was 8.8-10.8 whr/mi, with ave watts around 200W from the battery. Ave speed 19.19-20.26mph.

Throttle+pedelec: battery usage went up to 14.2 whr/mi, 290 watts ave. ave speed 20.42 mph.

So right away, you can see my efforts were about 90W less and I enjoyed not straining and pushing extra hard/long to actvate the torque sensor. As it stands, the pedelec mode needs to be a little more sensitive (easier) to the human input. That is my needs. I will say that I enjoy the pedelec experience, Ijust need more response.

So today I supplemented with the throttle. I use pedelec on downhills and most flats sections and beginning of hils, then switched to throttle. I wanted to push it some. Ahrs went up over the 17-18 mile ride from typical 5ahr to 6.7 ahr.

Battery sag was easier to measure and calculate. I saw a solid 6V drop at 30A, so my estimate is 200mohm in the battery to the CA. I don't like that. That's 180 Watts at full throttle, 30A and a large % of the rated 500W.

Changing levels andno pedalling after 10mi, I saw:
+1 : 12A
+2: 15A
+3: 18A
+4: 21A
+5: 24A

all steady state.

Power on a fresh 42V charage was 1080W, 30A, 36V (after 6V drop). As battery V decrease, power dropped accordingly at full throttle. For a specified motor eff of 90% , the motor loss would be 108W, which is less than the battery, really??!!!

Level +3 at 15 miles saw a good 566 watts of assist.

Riding with throttle means I get Turbo output at 100% duty rather than 3-5 seconds. I also get 100% duty withno effort vs hard pedelec output.

Wiring of throttle onto drop road bars is way under satisfactory. The thumb throttle doesn't have a good spot and it is cludged with wire ties. ugly.

Riding with throttle on flats, I saw 28mph with moderate effort and 22-23mph on some inclines. BAttery Output power was in the 600-800W range.

Recommendation:s
Adding Falco to a road bike, smaller frame, is best as a pedelec with Falco battery. Falco needs to update their consol to equalt the CA functions. Response needs tweeked to enable full power at given set level, and normal pedal thrust.

A larger hybrid frame could have suspension and wider tires, disk brakes and be more comfortable. More room for wiring and a flat bar for throttle. One could use an after market 48V battery with a CA and get a 750W system. (Center battery mounting only-please)

Falco is working consol improvements: better backlighting, bigger screen, closer cover. Adding CA data with +ANT power transmission is my suggestion, but I am only one. Until consol is improved, true power junkies and techno analysts will want a Cycle analyst.

Note, the GArmin Edge 500 calorie estimates are wildly divergent. Wearing the HR monitor cuts my calorie est in half.

Note: I do not have any crank sensor. NormaLLY 12 magnet sensor. Feedback is torque sensor in motor only. 50T front cog does not get a good reponse when pushing moderate-hard on saddle, after 10miles. fresh charge - I do get some response. Standing gets high response. Going to 34T ring, the system responds well and more linear, but I top out in gears to about 20-22mph.

I will be talking to Falco and changing the motor settings and responses via a serial interface. This is suppose to be available to all customers. It allows tailoring of the motor reponse.

Dan