Falco e-Motors

[dominator]

The only way I would consider a 500w motor is if I could run 2 of them, would this be possible and do you have the program available now to do that with one throttle? I'm using a Li-Nmc battery pretty sure that isn't lipo, could I power 2 500watt motors with one battery, I've seen other kits do this with one 48v 10ah battery so I don't see why I couldn't, at this point I am willing to spend a little more to make this work, 2 motors fully open no limits with voltage etc I think would work as each motor would work less.

 

[liveforphysics]

I've not seen one of these motors in person yet, but I like what I see.

I'm interested in trying out a 500w rear in 700c wheel for my commuter roadbike.

13s is the maximum battery I assume? Is the rim/spokes it comes laced with quality stuff to handle lots of stairs/curbs/logs etc? Do you have a weight of the assembled motor/wheel?

Any vendor/purchase-path that comes more recommended than others?

 

[newschoolnerd]

@dominator It is possible to run two motors, as I have already been speaking to Rakesh about running a similar setup. You can run one display and one throttle.

We are still getting used to work with these systems, but we feel they're pretty awesome. I'm currently doing some testing with the a 500w motor on a 700c Disc trucker. The main issue I'm running into is keeping my pedal power up past 30mph (currently 36v but 48v on the way). We could run a larger chainring, 56t is the largest I've found, but I'm considering running a Schlumpf. It'll bring the overall price of the system up significantly, but it'll be nice to pedal into 40mph if I want to.

@liveforphysics They are pretty solid motors in my opinion, just as smooth if not smoother than Bionx and it's an open system. The display is a little clunky, but there should be new displays along with Android and iOS apps in the spring. I do believe 18s is the limit, they'll work with either 36v or 48v and it can auto-detect. The rim it comes with is pretty solid,it's a dimpled rim put out by Team Hybrid. I can get you the weight of the complete wheel on Monday when I'm back in the shop.

We have some custom motors on order from Falco with special axles made for horizontal dropouts, we hope to run them on some other Surly bikes (they seem to be a pretty solid platform for conversions). The standard motor can be used with horizontal drop outs, you just can't use the torque sensor which in my opinion is where it's at.

I'm no expert, but I will be happy to pass along any information I can. This forum has been immensely helpful to me and I'd like to give back anyway I can. I see both of you guys are in California so it might be best to check if there is a local dealer, but I'd love to help if I can. I'm really excited about what Rakesh and Falco has been bringing to the table and I just want to understand more what we can do with these systems.

-Chris

 

[liveforphysics]

18s limit? Excellent! I thought I read it had a >55v lockout.

Very excited to feel smooth silent torque.

 

[dominator]

14s is the limit and it requires a special program to be uploaded to the motor by Rakesh this is what is being done to my motor now

 

[liveforphysics]

14s is the limit and it requires a special program to be uploaded to the motor by Rakesh this is what is being done to my motor now

Ahh, excellent. 14s works out much better for me than 13s.

 

[newschoolnerd]

Sorry for the misinformation guys. Still learning all this new technology.

Chris

 

[Bike_on]

Miro: I recently purchased a Falco 500 watt 36 volt 11.6 ah torque sensing system and installed it on a 57cm frame Trek 7300, running 700c x 40 on the rear and 700c x 35 on the front. The bike doesn't match Bike_on's speeds, but it's good for 31 mph with my pedaling efforts. Not bad for an upright bike. The motor is absolutely quiet. I've only felt the motor get very hot when riding a series of steep rolling hills at 17 mph on the upside with strong pedaling, and I was pedaling briskly on the downhills in strong regen to put watts back into the battery and extend range. Most of the time on smooth roads I ride 16 to 20 MPH. It's comfortable at that speed. The motor will be just warm to the touch during such use. Range of the bike can vary greatly, depending speed, hills, wind, pedaling effort, and use of regen. On some rides of 23 miles, the battery has indicated that it is down to 20% capacity at the finish of the ride. Using regen and pedaling on downhill and some flat sections, same-length rides yield 50% battery capacity indications. It's a powerful yet fairly light weight system.

hc rider,

I have that same system and match your results with moderate effort. My skinny 700x28 tires and road bars might get me a bit more speed and whrs, but the results sound right.

DR

 

[Bike_on]

The Falco system is very configurable to a rider's needs. One cannot configure the winding speed of the motor, of course, but the torque response, on/off time, delays, etc are configurable thru a GUI from Falco.

I also got a new Beta console to test. It is suppose to have Ahrs, Whrs, added to the display. It's been too busy and cold to try it yet..next year.

The 500W motor will deliver 1100W EASY with a fresh battery. This canbe done via the throttle or PAS. I downloaded a new motor programin Oct and now the PAS perfroms much better. The motor had deveoped some issues with the torque response making it less pleasant to ride. Now they are gone..kudos to Falco for progress. So 500W+ riding is possible, BUT, you will overheat in warm climates unless you keep the ave power down. Supposively, Falco OVERDESIGNED their thermal protection limit in their initial motor builds. It is hard wired. Their testing shown good margin, and the newer motors are suppose to allow higher temps, and hopefull higher performance. I reported this earlier, but it is worth repeating.

The weight of the 500W, @ 4.5kg is attractice vs the 750W at 6kg. I have been driving my 500W hard, on a light bike and getting 600W results, with average speeds in the 21-24mph range over 16-18 miles. Above that, the battery sag is too much and speed drops. That can be fixed with the battery of your choice and limiting the peak power with the control console. Also, throttle mode heats up much faster than PAS, and my PAS speeds are almost identical. It is smoothly sweet, silent and powerful. It you want 25mph+ averages, I think you need the 750W and run 48V.

DR

 

[Mark H]

The Falco system can be set to the customers requirements, especially useful for those with a disability.

[youtube][/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si4-exkFVK0&feature=c4-overview&list=UUqEAbLtx8q3YPB4t81C9tCQ

 

[Mark H]

In January we will have some ex demo Falco systems for sale. We will offer these at a much reduced price to any of you guys who live in the UK.

In return we would like feedback/reports photos and videos. If any of you are interested please call us at Team Hybrid 01329 832068

 

[hcrider]

Bike_on: Using Rakesh's program, last night I updated the my Trek 7300's 500w Falco torque sensing motor and changed one value using the GUI as a check. Too cold in Illinois to test ride it. Hopefully, the update will take care of motor control and run-on issues my system has had.

In mid-Sept I swapped out the Falco 11.6ah battery for an AllCell 36v 20ah (41.86v at full charge). I mounted it inside a ToPeak MTX DX rear carrier mounted bag, the battery sits on a layer of 1/2" of camping pad foam plus a layer of bubble wrap. The sides are padded with multiple layers of the foam, and the top is capped with a layer of it plus some bubble wrap. On the rear of the bag I installed a Grainger 2VLP9 rocker switch, and it has a very finished look to it. I just carefully cut a hole the size of the switch body and inserted it into the bag. Other than the 1/4" spades to wire the switch, I used Anderson Powerpole connectors. Battery and bag weigh 12 lbs. The MTX rack 1 lb. Looks innocent.

Yes, the bike is tail-heavy to pick up, but on the roll, I don't really notice the weight, except on rough surfaces when the unsprung weight won't allow it to follow the bumps. (Time to slow down.) The triangle remains open for two large H2O bottles and a frame mounted tire pump. I drink water when I ride.

The AllCell performs well. An example - a 35 mile ride averaging 18.4 mph, 10-15 mph headwinds and a number of hills on the first half, then tailwinds and hills on the return, so I used regen a lot. The lowest voltage displayed was 35v on a steep hill towards the end of the ride. Non-load voltage was 38 at the end of the ride.

Hopefully, I'll have some longer rides next summer and utilize the new Ahrs and Whrs display to good effect.

Shorter trips can easily be done at 25 mph, but the wind noise gets unpleasant. Does anyone have an easy solution to that?

hcrider

 

[Bike_on]

HC Rider,

Nice report, keep them coming.

What to do for the headwind? That's why we electrify, right?

It is good to get feedback on a second battery source. I have a second homebrew battery, 16ahr lifepo4, a123, that I have added to the rear too. Mine is 16lbs, so much more weight. I have to be careful.

Good rides and blessed holiday.

D

 

[miro13car]

hcrider,
good report on 500W FALCO set up.
I understand you used PAS only on your rides with Allcell baterry?, right?
bike_ on,
tells are more about this new Beta display when you have occasion to ride!
Looks like FALCO is listening to customers feedback, I read several times comments on poor LCD contrast on old FALCO displays.
I am wondering how you can have Ahours and Wattshours reading from third party battery on this display, unless it is done in motor controller electronics?,
I think those Ahs and Whs reading on new display are only from FALCO batteries. However I noticed that FALCO packs have SOC display built in , for sure real one /Columb count chip/ .

500W nominal weight of 4.5kg is incredibly light considering that it includes controller built into motor.

 

[miro13car]

here is excellent paper on
5-phase DD motor technology.
Very knowledgable.

http://www.falcoemotors.com/?page_id=195

 

[Bike_on]

I've not seen one of these motors in person yet, but I like what I see.

I'm interested in trying out a 500w rear in 700c wheel for my commuter roadbike.

13s is the maximum battery I assume? Is the rim/spokes it comes laced with quality stuff to handle lots of stairs/curbs/logs etc? Do you have a weight of the assembled motor/wheel?

Any vendor/purchase-path that comes more recommended than others?

Live-
I have the 500W rear on a 700cc, road bike. The wheel+hub weighs in right at 16lb. Spokes are ok, but I broke one on a bump going high speed.

I was told by Rakesh that 55V was the max due to the capacitors. I'm sure it can be higher at the risk of stress on components. I run off 36V LiMn, but have also tried a home made, LiFePo4 from A123 prismatics.

Issues with the 500W. (probably a repeat of previous posts, I apologize) Thermal limits in the motor/controller. I was told that the Alpha version temp sensor was over designed and ther eis more margin. If I run fullpowe rin the summer, drawing 30A often, it will cut back after 5-7 miles, and I limp along until it cools, then full powe ris restored. The 500W is DESIGNED to run at 500W average. The controls can be tuned or throttled to give 100% duty, thus 30A out and 1000-1200W from that 4.5kg dd motor. It is powerful and silent on a road bike.

Torque bar required.

Dom- I too had the jerking at cut off. I reprogrammed my motor and 99% went away and it respond better. Falco offers a user GUI to program start delay, turn off delay, response gain, etc. The motor controller wants it to be a PEDELC, not a throttled bike, from my expereince. Once I reprogrammed, I didnt need or want to use the throttle, and still has full power and higher speeds.

My typical speed, with 28mm tires, on drop bars, flat-rolling hills was 28mph, cruising and moderate pedalling. I could use a 52T or 54T front vs a 50T. REar is 11-28 i think.

These hubs are pricier. The hype over the advantages may be worth it once everything works together. Here is a summary on performance:
1. Silent - excellent
2. Power - excellent (1200W peak for 500W)
3. Weight -moderate- good, 4.5kg
4. Controls - moderate-good, enclosed, but have pre-mature thermal imit. Smooth once tweeked. Throttle or pedelec mode seemless.
5. Console- moderate, wireless issues. New power monitoring not working. Contrast is poor, small letters.
6. Advance controls- moderate, regen brake button in development.

 

[Bike_on]

The only way I would consider a 500w motor is if I could run 2 of them, would this be possible and do you have the program available now to do that with one throttle? I'm using a Li-Nmc battery pretty sure that isn't lipo, could I power 2 500watt motors with one battery, I've seen other kits do this with one 48v 10ah battery so I don't see why I couldn't, at this point I am willing to spend a little more to make this work, 2 motors fully open no limits with voltage etc I think would work as each motor would work less.

Dominator-

Did you return your hub or get it working? I have run my 500W, 36V hub with a lifepo4 that mantains 38-41V, and higher than the LiMn. The motor/contol response was interesting. It seemed to cut back power at the higher voltages. I was limited to 700W after a couple minutes. that coul dbe a BMS limit, not sure yet. The stock 36V seems to only be limited by it's aweful saaaaagggggg. I run hard and strong for 15 miles. Then voltage drops and power and performance, but I can go another 8 miles or so.

I would personnally not run 2 motors because of the weight, yuck. You have a nice , light LNC. Get it to re-program at 55+ V and tweek the response with their GUI.

Note, Falco motors are still somewhat new to production. Don't be surprised about issues that arise under the stress of first adapter abuse.

D

 

[dominator]

The only way I would consider a 500w motor is if I could run 2 of them, would this be possible and do you have the program available now to do that with one throttle? I'm using a Li-Nmc battery pretty sure that isn't lipo, could I power 2 500watt motors with one battery, I've seen other kits do this with one 48v 10ah battery so I don't see why I couldn't, at this point I am willing to spend a little more to make this work, 2 motors fully open no limits with voltage etc I think would work as each motor would work less.

Dominator-

Did you return your hub or get it working? I have run my 500W, 36V hub with a lifepo4 that mantains 38-41V, and higher than the LiMn. The motor/contol response was interesting. It seemed to cut back power at the higher voltages. I was limited to 700W after a couple minutes. that coul dbe a BMS limit, not sure yet. The stock 36V seems to only be limited by it's aweful saaaaagggggg. I run hard and strong for 15 miles. Then voltage drops and power and performance, but I can go another 8 miles or so.

I would personnally not run 2 motors because of the weight, yuck. You have a nice , light LNC. Get it to re-program at 55+ V and tweek the response with their GUI.

Note, Falco motors are still somewhat new to production. Don't be surprised about issues that arise under the stress of first adapter abuse.

D

Bikeon,

No unfortunately I returned it and got an HPC kit, I'm running their 6000w + setup and have not had any issues thus far (major issues at least). It is definitely not as smooth or silent as the falco motor but its much more powerful (then again I also paid much more lol), but the falco just had too many issues for the speed it was providing me.

 

[Bike_on]

Bike_on: Using Rakesh's program, last night I updated the my Trek 7300's 500w Falco torque sensing motor and changed one value using the GUI as a check. Too cold in Illinois to test ride it. Hopefully, the update will take care of motor control and run-on issues my system has had.

In mid-Sept I swapped out the Falco 11.6ah battery for an AllCell 36v 20ah (41.86v at full charge). I mounted it inside a ToPeak MTX DX rear carrier mounted bag, the battery sits on a layer of 1/2" of camping pad foam plus a layer of bubble wrap. The sides are padded with multiple layers of the foam, and the top is capped with a layer of it plus some bubble wrap. On the rear of the bag I installed a Grainger 2VLP9 rocker switch, and it has a very finished look to it. I just carefully cut a hole the size of the switch body and inserted it into the bag. Other than the 1/4" spades to wire the switch, I used Anderson Powerpole connectors. Battery and bag weigh 12 lbs. The MTX rack 1 lb. Looks innocent.

Yes, the bike is tail-heavy to pick up, but on the roll, I don't really notice the weight, except on rough surfaces when the unsprung weight won't allow it to follow the bumps. (Time to slow down.) The triangle remains open for two large H2O bottles and a frame mounted tire pump. I drink water when I ride.

The AllCell performs well. An example - a 35 mile ride averaging 18.4 mph, 10-15 mph headwinds and a number of hills on the first half, then tailwinds and hills on the return, so I used regen a lot. The lowest voltage displayed was 35v on a steep hill towards the end of the ride. Non-load voltage was 38 at the end of the ride.

Hopefully, I'll have some longer rides next summer and utilize the new Ahrs and Whrs display to good effect.

Shorter trips can easily be done at 25 mph, but the wind noise gets unpleasant. Does anyone have an easy solution to that?

hcrider

HC-

Can you post a pic of that battery pack on the bike and Falco motor?

Do you have a new console with the Ahr, Whr display ? Let us know how it works.

Bike_on

 

[hcrider]

Bike_on: West central Illinois has been too cold to ride at all this winter, so I have not ridden my bike since the program update. The console is the original. The program update is supposed to cause the original console to display Amp Hours or Watt Hours as an alternative to the Voltage value that it has always displayed. I've no experience with those features yet. Right now, I have the console off the bike, protecting its on-board battery from the cold of the garage, so you won't see it in the attached pics.

Rakesh is sending a new wireless unit (picks up signals from the control console), saying that it will perform better than the original. Like you, I'm likely to remove the throttle if the system updates prove good. That will eliminate some of the extra wire harness from the bike. However, the brake sensor is mounted on the rear V-brake, and it has a longer than needed harness, plus the motor has a longer-than-needed harness. Cutting into a harness to shrink its length seems too risky to me, so I'll probably leave them as is.

I'm ready to have some warm weather come my way so I can get out and test it all!

hcrider

 

[FalcoeMotors]

@Dominator

You really should have used the 500W motor instead of the 750W. 500W can take you up to 30mph and if you are using torque sensor, range and speed can be optimized quite easily. It would have been cheaper, light weight as well as more cost effective setup.

750W is great for cargo bikes: Here is the 750W being used at Splendid Cycles: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...60548518.78131.106290576083619&type=1&theater

 

[the_dude]

Dan / Bike_on,

First of all thanks for all of the indepth and objective information you have shared about the Faclo kit you have.

I saw earlier in this thread where you talked about needing quite a bit of pedal effort at higher speeds to keep up a high speed. I assume you are using the torque sensing option rather than cadence crank sensor?

Later posts seemed to imply that you were able to adjust the setting using the GUI computer software to make it easier to maintain a high speed without as much pedal effort? Is that true?

What level of assist are you using mostly? I see lots of posts about your results with the cycle analyst data but wasn't sure what level of assist you are using for those rides.

Assuming you have done it what kind of range and average speed are you getting with full (level 5) assist?

Thanks

PS I would love to hear about any other updates you have made or received as a result of feedback to Falco.

 

[FalcoeMotors]

Here are some images of the Falco Wireless Interface:

1. Welcome Screen:

2. Motor Interface:

3. Motor Inteface:

4. Console Interface:

5. Fitness Interface:

6. Torque Sensor Adjustments:

Here is the video on the Falco Interface: [youtube]SaMoZH3-lzE[/youtube]

The video shows an older interface.

 

[FalcoeMotors]

With the new interface, one can optimize the system for speed and/or range. Range upto 70+ miles on a 417Wh battery is possible. For 500W off-road version, speed upto 30 mph is possible.

 

[miro13car]

FalcoeMotors,
wonderful edrive .
You are saying that I can plug in my laptop , connect to wireless FALCO console and start tunning those parameters?
Definitely FALCO is the first electric drive manufacturer ever who would allow for that.
My EPLUS designed by the same team of engineers /or for sure most of them the same/ had to be sent to manufacturer for doing that.
Canadian BIONX allows only 5 parameters to change by owner including regen. All other codes necessary to change parameters are secret.