Falco e-Motors

[Cephalotus]

same for BIONX - only dealer knows all access codes to change setting /for example for PAS sensor/.

This is available to everyone:

0001: Serial-Nr. console
0002: Serial-Nr. battery
0003: Serial-Nr motor

0006: speed gain
0007 :sensor sensitivity
0008a : extra power at low speed
0008b: low speed limit
0009: gauge knee
0010: mountain mode (limits maximum A drwan from battery)

1234 : sensor sensitivity

1970 : DC-DC configuration
1976 : motor direction

2001 : km/h or mph
2002 : (brake) recuperation power
2003 : ?
2004 : time
2005 :wheel diameter
2006 : configuration brake sensor NO / NC
2007 : configuration throttle
2008 : DC/DC voltage 6V/12 (is not available on all consoles, with extra software you can channge that between 5,0V and 12,0V in 0,5V steps)
2009 : configuration of console

3771 : wheel diameter (same as 2005)
3772 : diagnostic mode
3773 : maximum speed (on newer software versions you need extra software to change that)
3774 : overvoltage protection on/off
3775 : maximum speed throttle (on newer software versions you need extra software to change that)
3776 : motor startup speed 0km/h to 3km/h (not available on all consoles)
3779 : turbo mode

I can change all of this with my BionX systems and some more with some extra hardware and software (like recuperation strength in gen mode -1 to -4 or motor assist in mode 1 to 4)

For some special parameters like changing the speed limit or changing DC/DC voltage I use a BionX Bike Interface (BBI) which can be bought at ebay and some hacked BionX software from http://www.open-ebike.com (in German).

The standard parameters for sensor sensitivity (1234) or support strengths (0007, 0008a/b, 0006), mountain mode (0010), etc... are available on almost all BionX consoles without the need to buy extra hardware or software.

Btw, a BionX HT Motor uses up to 30A on a 48V BionX battery. I measured electric power drain of more than 1300W on my "250W" BionX systems. Neither battery nor motor will be able to run that power for long, but it is nonsense to believe that the power of a motor is related to its sticker.

Just for comparison. I have never seen nor driven an e-Falco motor.

I had been interested in their lightweight DX motor for some years (because of the claimed super light weight), but afaik this motor never hit the market. Now I own 4 BionX motors (they have become quite cheap over here, 300-350€ incl. a good rim for the older free wheel versions) with the S(L) motors weighting moderate 3,4kg and using up to 1100W on a 48V battery. (the HT (P) motor weights 4,7kg and uses up to 1300W from a 48V battery)

So I doubt that I will invest into another system like Falco-e for some years.

 

[Bike_on]

I took a few more data points in the lower rpm/speed region.

Justin -
Thanks for cleaning it up.

All-
With an official spin down video and now a no-load, rpm vs torque plot provided, are the issues, questions, performance, challenges of the Falco system satisfied for this parameter?

Bike_on, and on, and on

 

[Bike_on]

I can change all of this with my BionX systems and some more with some extra hardware and software (like recuperation strength in gen mode -1 to -4 or motor assist in mode 1 to 4)

For some special parameters like changing the speed limit or changing DC/DC voltage I use a BionX Bike Interface (BBI) which can be bought at ebay and some hacked BionX software from http://www.open-ebike.com (in German).

Ceph -
I never knew the Bionx had been hacked so indepth. I learned something here.

Btw, a BionX HT Motor uses up to 30A on a 48V BionX battery. I measured electric power drain of more than 1300W on my "250W" BionX systems. Neither battery nor motor will be able to run that power for long, but it is nonsense to believe that the power of a motor is related to its sticker.

Just for comparison. I have never seen nor driven an e-Falco motor.

On my Falco, via a CA, a fresh 41V charge and 30 A output, I have seen 1200-1250W and sustained for seconds until overcome by speed. My average power on my 500W hub was about 500W for a discharge. Cruising power was 700-800, fresh battery and down to 500 at discharge end.

I had been interested in their lightweight DX motor for some years (because of the claimed super light weight), but afaik this motor never hit the market. Now I own 4 BionX motors (they have become quite cheap over here, 300-350€ incl. a good rim for the older free wheel versions) with the S(L) motors weighting moderate 3,4kg and using up to 1100W on a 48V battery. (the HT (P) motor weights 4,7kg and uses up to 1300W from a 48V battery)
[/quote]

Falco 500W is 4.5kg, you may know. I wanted a light weight hub too. After riding a year with the Falco, It is great for the road, but the wheel weight just has issues riding fast, compared to a mid drive with suspension.

 

[Cephalotus]

"...On my Falco, via a CA, a fresh 41V charge and 30 A output, I have seen 1200-1250W and sustained for seconds until overcome by speed. My average power on my 500W hub was about 500W for a discharge. Cruising power was 700-800, fresh battery and down to 500 at discharge end..."

"...Falco 500W is 4.5kg, you may know. I wanted a light weight hub too. After riding a year with the Falco, It is great for the road, but the wheel weight just has issues riding fast, compared to a mid drive with suspension..."

Thanks for those numbers. So the BionX motors with 250W/350W stickers seem to have quite similiar performance compared to the Falco-e with a 500W sticker.

BionX offers a more lightweight option and older versions with freewheel instead of cassette adapters (worse technology, but available for cheap).

The biggest advantage seems to be, that with Falco-e the user is able to build and use his own batteries.

With BionX batteries you can replace the cells with your own, but you need to stick to a 13s configuration (48V systems) and you need the Bionx battery module which is not available on its own.

I'm not sure if there is an advantage between 5 phase to 3 phase, for me the Bionx 3 phase controller is already good enough. BionX motors can be opened (you have to remove half of the spokes) and the internal controller can be replaced with 3rd party 3phase controllers, which are easily available. Can you open a Falco-e motor?

So in the end I would say that a BionX system is a competition to a Falco-e 500W system. I do not know which one is better, because I do not have direct comparison. BionX has lost huge amounts of market share and has gained very bad reputation in Germany because of immense quality problems during 2010-2012, so now you can have great deals, because manufacturers that switched to other systems want to clear their BionX inventory.

Some days ago I bought a Focus cross road bike with Avid hydraulic brakes, Shimano XT/SLX components, a factory new (2014) 48V 6,3Ah BionX battery, charger, 48V BionX 250HT motor and all together for 799 Euro incl. 12 months warranty. This is my 4th BionX motor and my 4th BionX battery. Gives me some more material to experiment with and a great bike, too.

As I said I had been interested in the Falco-e system since I know about it (year 2011?), mainly because of the lightweight DX motor, but for me they came to late.

Btw, can someone tell me how good recuperation works on the Falco-e system and if the wireless display works well...

 

[Bike_on]

Thanks for those numbers. So the BionX motors with 250W/350W stickers seem to have quite similiar performance compared to the Falco-e with a 500W sticker.

BionX offers a more lightweight option and older versions with freewheel instead of cassette adapters (worse technology, but available for cheap).

The US FAlco model is a Freewheel too,and not a cassette. I wish it were. They are supposively working on it.

Wireless Console:

An wireless console is a nice option if riding pedelec only. Using a throttle requires a wire from hub to the bars.

I'm not sure if there is an advantage between 5 phase to 3 phase, for me the Bionx 3 phase controller is already good enough. BionX motors can be opened (you have to remove half of the spokes) and the internal controller can be replaced with 3rd party 3phase controllers, which are easily available. Can you open a Falco-e motor?

I have not tried to open it. 5-ph vs 3-ph, see previous discussions.

So in the end I would say that a BionX system is a competition to a Falco-e 500W system. I do not know which one is better, because I do not have direct comparison.

Fair comparison. Falco considers them a competitor.

Some days ago I bought a Focus cross road bike with Avid hydraulic brakes, Shimano XT/SLX components, a factory new (2014) 48V 6,3Ah BionX battery, charger, 48V BionX 250HT motor and all together for 799 Euro incl. 12 months warranty. This is my 4th BionX motor and my 4th BionX battery. Gives me some more material to experiment with and a great bike, too.

sounds like a nice set up. Enjoy!
I also splurged and bought a Trek DS8.5 for my Falco. I have not transferred it yet. It is on a road bike now.

Btw, can someone tell me how good recuperation works on the Falco-e system and if the wireless display works well...

regen is very strong. They now have a one-touch button (-) to regen. It works. Falco upgraded the communications in their wireless transmitter for better comm.

The display has a much improved green backlight. Falco ADDED Amps, Ahr, Whr. They display, but print is too small, and they scroll thru. I would be very happy with an ANT+ transmission so my Garmin 500 could record power....not there yet. They also changed to a better console mount, like the CA, but less robust.

 

[miro13car]

cephalotus,
available?
exactely from where?
UNOFFICALLY you mean?
FOR EVERYBODY?
Absolutely not.
I bought my BIONX equipped Tioba Edwin from BIONX dealer like many other customers and dealer refused to provide any codes.
If there are available so they should be written black on white in BIONX manual.
I can provide here copy of the page of BIONX manual which shows 4 codes, no more. Like km/mph, clock adjust, wheel circumference , .
You forgot that there are couple of versions of BIONX software, old codes will not work on newer 48V BIONXs.
Just because it is circulated on ebike forums it does not mean is officially available.
So BIONX will not officially allow customer to change parameters like PAS SENSITIVITY for example.

 

[crichman]

I have found those codes to work well on my older Bionx I2C PL-350. Fair warning, Bionx asserts that any firmware changes void their warranty. So you can do it, but at some economic risk.

It is possible to remove speed limits and do other interesting things to the newer Canbus Bionx systems, but that requires sending codes to the system via a separate device. See http://www.bigxionflasher.org .

Charlie

 

[FalcoeMotors]

Esteemed Colleagues:

Here are few links:

How does a Falco Torque Sensor Work?
http://www.falcoemotors.com/?p=2947

Falco Interface 1.2 - A Quick Introduction
[youtube]TNtjybJA-gY[/youtube]

Adjusting Torque Sensor Parameters
[youtube]sE-6wH7Si-c[/youtube]

Let us have your feedback.

 

[Imaleone]

Ok, this is a good informative overview of what FALCO wants to make available to its customers, having an open platform is great.

 

[Tominfaribo]

One could compare hacking into Bionx to hacking Cell phones. If you don't know what you are doing you could make the system totally inoperable and risk the cost of buying a new hub or phone. Being able to program the hub with Falco support is really a first it many industries.
When my EBike research turned me to Falco I then researched Rakesh in detail. His background and history was a major concern for me to be able to spend money with a brand new company. Was this company going to survive I asked myself. Did it have legit people? I found out Rakesh also schooled here in Minnesota. He is doing business not only here but abroad. His past hubs were good. He's in additional industries. Hey!! This guy is in the know I told myself. He's doing it right I said.
Bill Gates made a statement years ago that he wish he could hire all Computer graduates from India because of their programming expertise. They could write the best/compact code in the industry he said.
Bill's statement was One of the reasons I bought a bought a Falco system. Rakesh has a team and wanted to do it RIGHT. His open system and listening to the end users requests will only make it better. This is what impressed me with Microsoft years ago and why I switched from Novell to Microsoft Networking software. A good move for me. It was pretty open and easy to use. This is why Falco impresses me now and am glad I didn't buy Bionx. End users will make this product even better IMHO.
Tom

 

[toolman2]

Well thats all wonderful,
-just leaves that little issue of Falco's claim of "zero peddling resistance" etc v's clear evidence of around 19w of resistance at 300rpm.

That being around 10% of the average humans input power, i would see that as substantial, quite noticeable, and far from zero..

Are we going to get a response on that Falco or do the facts just now disappear underneath an ever growing pile of marketing?

 

[Bike_on]

Well thats all wonderful,
-just leaves that little issue of Falco's claim of "zero peddling resistance" etc v's clear evidence of around 19w of resistance at 300rpm.

That being around 10% of the average humans input power, i would see that as substantial, quite noticeable, and far from zero..

Are we going to get a response on that Falco or do the facts just now disappear underneath an ever growing pile of marketing?

Toolman,

I have to pipe in on that. I think we parsed this out in the previous posts and gave Falco the benefit of their claim, meaning "Initial Force" being zero, not zero going 15mph. Falco posted the torque ripple graph on sheet 8, and LFP discussed how cogging torque relates to that ripple and is different than core loss torque.

Falco has consistently advocated an effectively zero cogging torque, or initial force when pedalling, not a zero force from the core loss. Their antecdotal story of the previous Tialforce design is evidence that the intent was to eliminate the initial, low speed pedalling force.

That's my take.

Yes, for Marketing truth, maybe the word "initial" shoul dbe added.

I took the time to quantify the core loss forces, and they seem to be reasonable to other hubs.

My experience on an un-poweered Falco hub is that the force is not moderately noticeable until speeds start getting over 17-18mph, but it can be difficult to maintain that speed on a hybrid bike anyway.

 

[FalcoeMotors]

Toolman2

Be patient.

We have shot some videos. All will be available.

We will bare all.

 

[Tominfaribo]

Ceph:
48V 6,3Ah BionX battery
About How many miles are you getting on this battery and configuration:

 

[Cephalotus]

Ceph:
48V 6,3Ah BionX battery
About How many miles are you getting on this battery and configuration:

Depends on the situation. In hilly terrain and moderate speed I ned around 3Wh/km and get around 1Wh/km from recuperation, which translates to 2Wh/km.

If I drive full speed (non legal over here) consumption gets up to 10Wh/km, climbing steep hills it can reach up to 20Wh/km. Recuperation stays around 1Wh/km in hilly terrain or city stop&go traffic and raises up to 5Wh/km wenn going down those steep hills. It's 0Wh/km on the flat of course.

The "48V 6,3Ah" has usable 200-250Wh (internal resistance, BMS only accepts around 90% DOD, somae aging and temperatur effect, etc...)

So theoretical range is 10km going full speed up the hill (in reality the motor will overheat before 10km under such condition) to up to 100km+ when riding the system as a bike with (significant) assist.

I'm 1,82m, my weight is 73kg and I would consider myself rather fit. I prefer lightweight, good maintained bicycles that are easily driven above 25km/h even without motor assist.

BionX (now) has a very good recuperation. Going uphill (5%) with moderate assist (100% driver, 50% Bionx) recuperation is around 100%. So the battery could ride this hill up and down forever, but I would be exhausted after some time of course. 50% assist is still significant. With 73kg myself, 7kg luggage and 20kg electric-bike having "only" 50% assistance is like having a bike with a negative weight of -13kg going uphill....

I an attempt to go back to topic:

I assume that the Falco-e drive will be very similar in range/performance, (affordable) direct hub motors are all similar in efficiency. The driver, how you use the system and the quality of the bike are much more important imho.

As far as I understand this correctly Falco-e has the huge advantage that you can use your own battery. So you can built your battery as large as you like it. With BionX you need the proprietary BionX electronics inside the battery. At least the connectors can be bought quite easily. (SubD 2+7, Hirose, BAAS01,...)

 

[Bike_on]

Here is a snapshot of recent rides. I use a CA and Garmin 500 and crunch some numbers.

 

[Tominfaribo]

Ceph:
Hard to make a comparison with me.
I'm 225lbs compared to your 160lbs. 65 years old have a Trek 7300 Hybrid with 700c tires compared to what looks like a Carbon Racing bike with narrow tires > 100 lbs of air.
Additional packs I carry is another 10lbs or so with ice extra water and a nice wider C9 seat.
I get about 40 miles on normal terrain and was down to 36 miles on more steeper terrains riding in a group at a 8-11mph pace. My wife and I now ride at a 12-14mph pace. At this pace I pedal and coast, pedal and coast. I would like to have in level 1 and do constant pedaling and very little coasting. Seemed like at this faster pace I'm also down to 36 miles in normal terrain. Not enough rides in last summer.
I updated my motor last night with the newest firmware and looked at the Falco 1.2 interface. So I'm ready to do some testing. Its still way too cold and rainy up here in MN, to have fun pushing NW winds.

Bike_on: Any suggestions on programming to get extra miles out of the battery? and
What parameters to I need to mess with to put Level 1 at less assist? And If I reprogram Level 1 down (less assist) does that also move all the other levels 2-5 down?
Thanks in advance.
Tom

 

[K-80-123]

One could compare hacking into Bionx to hacking Cell phones. If you don't know what you are doing you could make the system totally inoperable and risk the cost of buying a new hub or phone. Being able to program the hub with Falco support is really a first it many industries.
When my EBike research turned me to Falco I then researched Rakesh in detail. His background and history was a major concern for me to be able to spend money with a brand new company. Was this company going to survive I asked myself. Did it have legit people? I found out Rakesh also schooled here in Minnesota. He is doing business not only here but abroad. His past hubs were good. He's in additional industries. Hey!! This guy is in the know I told myself. He's doing it right I said.
Bill Gates made a statement years ago that he wish he could hire all Computer graduates from India because of their programming expertise. They could write the best/compact code in the industry he said.
Bill's statement was One of the reasons I bought a bought a Falco system. Rakesh has a team and wanted to do it RIGHT. His open system and listening to the end users requests will only make it better. This is what impressed me with Microsoft years ago and why I switched from Novell to Microsoft Networking software. A good move for me. It was pretty open and easy to use. This is why Falco impresses me now and am glad I didn't buy Bionx. End users will make this product even better IMHO.
Tom

I have talked to Rakesh several times, he is always available and answered all my questions. I purchased the 750Watt system and currently installing it on a mountain bike. I have been impressed with his customer service. When the system arrived it was packaged very well and had NO damage. If all goes well on my conversion of the MTB I will purchase another 500Watt system from him and put in on a cyclocross bike.

 

[Bike_on]

Bike_on: Any suggestions on programming to get extra miles out of the battery? and
What parameters to I need to mess with to put Level 1 at less assist? And If I reprogram Level 1 down (less assist) does that also move all the other levels 2-5 down?
Thanks in advance.
Tom

Tom,
Warm weather ahead, stay patient.
To be clear, the motor re-programming is different than the GUI interface. I do not believe the GUI can change the peak current or set levels. Maybe it can? I think you need Rakesh's latest firmware for the new even levels and reduced current.

I have not tweeked my program yet with the Gui. I believe the GUI weeks turn on/off delays and response gain to the torque signal. I suppose you may be able to adjust to the default settings? I'll try to connect and see what my defaults are set to.

 

[Tominfaribo]

Bike_on
I've flashed the latest firmware update last week. I'll get some riding in latter part of week to test new settings. I'll probably need to contact Rakesh on settings in the GUI if they need to be changed.

 

[Bike_on]

Bike_on
I've flashed the latest firmware update last week. I'll get some riding in latter part of week to test new settings. I'll probably need to contact Rakesh on settings in the GUI if they need to be changed.

The new fimrware setting gives it more response than I had before. I think you will like it. The turn off delay might be high, because the motor continues after pedalling ofr a good 1-1.5 sec. Unnerving at first.

I am finding that I can ride at level 3-4 and get top speeds. I am spinning out in top gear.

Today, with a fresh charge commute, level 4, I was 1-2 miles in, on a long 3-4% down hill (I-95 overpass at Rt 216). I pedalled out, tucked, and throttled to maintained 37mph for about 1/4 mile. The motor does hit high speed.

 

[FalcoeMotors]

Few Videos showing 750W Installation and Zero Resistance Pedal test

Part 1, 2 and 3
[youtube]HfzjFg_g7uk[/youtube]
[youtube]efrdoOMKg1Q[/youtube]
[youtube]OJ5p1fV5-wU[/youtube]

 

[arkmundi]

Falco online Forum is now active here:
http://www.falcoemotors.com/?page_id=54

The forum will have comprehensive knoweldgebase and information on Falco's technology and installation.

You are invited to join.

Thanks. Looks like a fine motor kit to choose and you're doing a wonderful job of providing support. I bought a Heinzmann 500 watt kit 2 years ago and am quite happy with it. If I were buying today, this would definitely be on my short list. So from you web site, I see a dealer locator and

Electric Bikes of New England
5 West Broadway
Derry, NH 03038
Phone: 603-319-4909

Is that right? I'd love to see a closer dealer, wither in Worcester or Boston, MA. What's it take to become a dealer?

 

[FalcoeMotors]

Thank you for the kind comments. We have been slow in signing up dealers. Primarily because we want to be able to support our dealers extensively.

Dealer application can be downloaded here:
http://falcoemotors.com/dealers/Falco%20US%20Canada%20Europe%20dealer%20application.doc

Yes, the closest dealer in your case is Electric Bikes of New England.

Thank You

 

[arkmundi]

Can you list the main criteria in selecting a dealer so I can pre-qualify myself? I'd love to sell a really good kit into the Massachusetts market and expand the use of eBikes regionally.