"Get well soon" fund for Icecube57

[icecube57]

Its helping out lots. I feel bad about hyena's situation... thats a buzz kill.

Im in a tight wrist wrap with a plaster wrist base. I have stitches in from the surgery... If the stitches look good to take out Wed then I will get a hard cast. If not it will be another tight wrist wrap with a plaster base. he bad thing is it limits wrist turning making it akward to sleep. Im also stuck with a kung fu grip like some plastic toy.

 

[TylerDurden]

If the stitches look good to take out Wed then I will get a hard cast.

Get some artwork on it...

 

[Philistine]

Can't help but chime in here for the US readers. In Australia and Canada (and the UK), we consider the kind of surgery that IceCube57 has undergone to be a human right. I am only posting this post, because I used to cry in my pants with laughter about you americans whinging that Obama was sending America to the communist state with his health care bill....

Does this sound good? in Canada, Australia, Uk.... You break your arm.... Guess what?? it is considered a human right (regardless of your financial circumstances)... that we will fix you.... we consider that a human right.... I guess we love our own people....

In Canada, England, and Australia, we consider health and education, to be fundamental human rights. And in our society, only the very fringes don't get those.

In the US, you are so proud about your freedom.... But for what? freedom for what? that you break your arm, and you get hounded to death for payment?

In Australia, Icecube would have had his arm set by world class surgeons.... for effectively nothing (he might have got hit for about $25 of doctor/medicare non-esxcess)......

But I guess that means his taxes would have been higher right?...... no...... Australia has both a lower corporate tax rate than the US, and a lower personal tax rate than (most) Us states citizens (please note my figures exclude certain US states)....

You need to also understand, that as far as Aussies are concerned, I am a rampant right winger.

But geeeeeeez, that public healthcare is crap right?

God forbid you consider health and education a human right..... Invite to Aussies - jump on and tell me how much you hate getting your health and education largely public.... sucks eh?

 

[mdd0127]

Way to rub it in.

I think that everyone that thinks in the US(sadly maybe 5% of us) knows that the healthcare system here is a total joke. The problem is that it's very difficult to do anything about it and those that try get "disappeared". Some of us still live here because we have friends and family here and have spent years building business and personal relationships and accumulating tools to make our lives more sustainable and independent. Relocation to another country at this point on the sole basis of healthcare is not enough or a reason to abandon everything you've spent years to build up...to some at least. Interaction with the jacked up systems here is pretty easy to avoid for the most part if you want to so for now, it's still tolerable enough to stay. We're (the thinking folks that is) trying to make it better but it's starting locally and underground. Maybe intentional living will catch on on a mass scale soon??? I hope so.

The bottom line is that, in the US, all doctors still take the Hippocratic oath. If you make enough noise and go to the right places, you will eventually get fixed up. I'm hearing more and more doctors say that they're totally fed up with the system and open to payment options too so maybe things are coming around. What you have to understand about the US and our "freedom" is that every time we've put a service in the hands of the government here, quality of service has gone straight to hell and more of our rights disappeared. Most people I talk to think we should turn it all off for a while, think about everything, and restart under new management but that's not a likely situation.

 

[RVD]

ok fine, i'll take the bait.

like most things in life, it's not so simple.

1) The US has the best doctors in the world. If you don't believe this, every single rich person I know from everywhere in the world comes to the US for their health care. The best Universities in the world are in the US, the best medical schools in the world are in the US, the doctors get paid the most in the US, so the best doctors live in the US. of course there are good doctors everywhere but if you were to take the top 100 doctors in each speciality, by far the majority would live in the US. Amongst ones that don't live here, the majority of them will have been trained in the US.

2) Most of the horror stories that I hear from overseas is from delay of care. If you get into a car accident, break your arm (like ice cube), etc. you will get good care. But if you complain that you have a headache, complain that your stomach hurts, etc. it will take a long time to get an MRI, CAT scan, etc. There are many documented cases where a patient has complained about a headache and it took many months to get a scan and when they finally did, it was too late (brain tumor, etc.).

3) In some countries like South Korea, there is a national health care plan but it works more like a partial payment system. Each procedure has a maximum amount that the government will pay. There are doctors that will do the procedure for that price. But you also have the option to go to a top notch doctor who will charge many times that price but you can still go there and pay the extra amount out of pocket. This gives the option for you to see a top specialist if you want to pay for it but also get some care if you can't afford it.

4) In the US, if you have no money or can't afford it, the public systems are atrocious. I have no doubt that compared to free clinics in the US, the health care is much better overseas. However, at the high end, I think the level of care here is better than anywhere else in the world.

Most of the opponents to Obama care are the doctors and upper middle class+ who want to continue to have the option to pay for the highest level of care that they can afford. Most of us in the US realize that once the US government gets involved, they tend to screw things up and the level of care drops for everyone.

 

[jonathanm]

ok fine, i'll take the bait.

like most things in life, it's not so simple.

Ain't that the truth. I feel I know a fair bit about this, having received medical treatment in several different countries, including both insured and uninsured in the US.

1) The US has the best doctors in the world. If you don't believe this, every single rich person I know from everywhere in the world comes to the US for their health care. The best Universities in the world are in the US, the best medical schools in the world are in the US, the doctors get paid the most in the US, so the best doctors live in the US. of course there are good doctors everywhere but if you were to take the top 100 doctors in each speciality, by far the majority would live in the US. Amongst ones that don't live here, the majority of them will have been trained in the US.

This is not true. Only Americans think this is true. There are good doctors and bad doctors everywhere. But there are more good doctors here in the US, and there are also more shoddy doctors here in the US. US universities are the best equipped generally, mainly because they charge so bloody much to go study there. My wife is works in a highly reputed bioscience lab in a top American university and the staff is 50/50 American/Foreign. She does not get paid by the university , but from overseas funding, yet she pays tax in the US. The most promising young Phd student connected to her lab is an Asian American doing a double Phd in Medicine and cell biology. He is currently in the UK receiving advanced training.

2) Most of the horror stories that I hear from overseas is from delay of care. If you get into a car accident, break your arm (like ice cube), etc. you will get good care. But if you complain that you have a headache, complain that your stomach hurts, etc. it will take a long time to get an MRI, CAT scan, etc. There are many documented cases where a patient has complained about a headache and it took many months to get a scan and when they finally did, it was too late (brain tumor, etc.).

I hear this argument often, but it is a red herring. In the UK (and Australia too I presume) You can get everything taken care of for free. If you want a higher level of care, then you are also free to pay for private medical care or buy private medical insurance like BUPA. If you expect to get an MRI for free every time you get a headache, then you will be disappointed, sure. but if your doctor suspects you actually need an MRI then you will get one very fast, believe me. For free. If you think your doctor is wrong, you can get another opinion for free, or just go and pay for a CAT scan. (or claim on your private insurance). Only 4% of medical costs are covered by private insurance, so you can see that most people don't see the need. In fact the vast majority of private health insurance is provided as a perk by employers.

Yes I have heard many horror stories about UK NHS, but I have also heard many horror stories about US healthcare as well. My wife was in a bike accident last year...even with good insurance, it cost us nearly $1000. That included $30 for a single Ibuprofen tablet while she was waiting to be seen. And $100 for a pair of crutches she neither asked for or wanted.

3) In some countries like South Korea, there is a national health care plan but it works more like a partial payment system. Each procedure has a maximum amount that the government will pay. There are doctors that will do the procedure for that price. But you also have the option to go to a top notch doctor who will charge many times that price but you can still go there and pay the extra amount out of pocket. This gives the option for you to see a top specialist if you want to pay for it but also get some care if you can't afford it.

I lived in Germany as well, and the level of care there was way ahead of both the US and the UK. They have a different type of system there - it is a mandatory insurance system. Despite the better level of care, they spend 10% of GDP on healthcare as opposed to the 16-17% that the US pays.

4) In the US, if you have no money or can't afford it, the public systems are atrocious. I have no doubt that compared to free clinics in the US, the health care is much better overseas. However, at the high end, I think the level of care here is better than anywhere else in the world.

Again, if you're talking high end - ie paying top dollar or paying for expensive insurance - you will get the very best facilities and doctors anywhere in the world. I know several high income Americans who go to South America for treatment because the facilities are state of the art but the prices are much cheaper..

Most of the opponents to Obama care are the doctors and upper middle class+ who want to continue to have the option to pay for the highest level of care that they can afford. Most of us in the US realize that once the US government gets involved, they tend to screw things up and the level of care drops for everyone.

This is a fair comment - but the problem is a highly inefficient, morally bankrupt political system, not the concept of universal healthcare. I wouldn't trust the US government (either party) to spend my grocery money wisely and without giving multiple parties a kick back....never mind my healthcare money.

In countries where universal healthcare is the norm, it is not a partisan issue. everyone agrees it is a good thing, even if there are disagreements about how to run it. Here in the Us every little thing gets thrown into the partisan bitch fight and the loser is always the average citizen.

 

[RVD]

I'll admit that health care is broken in the US. This is not just the government but insurance companies and the way that they handle deductibles, pre-existing conditions, and all of their various rules that nobody understands.

I have had insurance at times and didn't have insurance at times. Now that I'm a little older and I have a family, a house, etc...(i.e. stuff to lose), I always make sure that I have insurance.

But when I was younger, I went for years without insurance. And many time when I did have insurance, I had some crappy kind that only cost me like $200/month and I didn't understand any of it.

I view myself as a fairly bright guy. I went to one of the best Universities in the world (Berkeley) and studied one of the hardest majors there (Computer Science). I also have an MBA from one of the best Universities in the world (Wharton). I understand most tax laws, securities laws, venture capital contacts, mortgage contracts, car lease contracts, etc. But when it comes to health insurance, I have no clue what's covered, what's not, how much something is going to actually cost, etc.

If I need medical care, I simply go to the hospital, show them my insurance card, get treatment, and pay whatever they eventually tell me that insurance doesn't cover.

I broke my collarbone a few years ago snowboarding (ok, it's been over 10 years). I had insurance but I have no idea what that insurance covered because at the end of the day, after about 3 months of random treatments, I ended up paying about $3k out of pocket. I have no idea how much insurance paid, how much I was supposed to pay, etc. Nobody could explain it either. I even had some bills coming in like a year later from the doctor saying that I owed him directly for his services. Apparently the bill that I paid the hospital was only for the hospital and he bills separately (as well as the ambulance billing separately, radiologist, etc.). In the end I gave up and just paid whatever. Heck, you could have sent me a bill during that time and I probably would have paid you.

These days I have better insurance but I still have no idea what anything is going to cost until after I do it and eventually get a bill.

Hillary Clinton actually tried to reform health care during Bill Clinton's first term way back in 1992. But you'll see that mysteriously she stopped pushing for this about a year later. Most people think that she was simply paid off by the insurance companies.

In any case, I'm just saying that if you want great treatment, you can get it here if you pay for it. The problem is that most people can't pay for it. I'm just not convinced that the government taking over is the solution. I imagine going to the DMV for health care...

 

[jonathanm]

Yes, we consider ourselves pretty bright also, hahaha ......

....but US healthcare & insurance is hugely overcomplicated and I'm pretty sure designed to confuse you. I had to spend hours studying lots of different sources just to understand what we were covered for and not covered for.

And like you, in the end it was a crap shoot. We never knew what we would pay at any point. Plus the paperwork and bills we got were astounding. We got billed for everything at first, separately from every provider, including different departments from within the same hospital. Then the insurance company would start negotiations, and every time something got agreed or amended or anything, we got another set of bills. We ended up with a stack of paperwork an inch high...more hours of studying, lol.

I wonder how much of the final bills (both ours and the insurance companies) went to pay medical care and how much went to paper pushers.

Anyone who thinks this is a good system needs their head looking at. (pun intended)

 

[Philistine]

Thanks for all the sanity Jonathanm.

I wasn't trying to "rub it in", or suggesting you move country, just have some sanity in your debates when you discuss universal healthcare.

I didn't mean to hijack Icecubes thread with a debate on healthcare, but one of the reasons I sent him $20, is that I genuinely feel for American's faced with the US system. If he was in Australia, the UK, or most of Europe, I wouldn't even consider it, because he could get world class care basically for free. I don't want to get into a debate about who has better doctors (but I have lived in the US, been treated by doctors in the US, and I can state that all my experiences with Australian doctors has been better), my brother lived in the US for over 5 years, all his children were born there, and mine were born here in Australia. We compare notes, and the level of care for the delivery of my children we agree was a higher level of care (less invasive, natural births, but when one of them went wrong, we had two obstetricians and five support staff at the drop of a hat - and it cost us...... $0).

As JonathanM points out, in Australia and UK the question of universal healthcare is not a debate, it is bipartisan agreement, the debates occur around the edges. I was just trying to make the point that when the US had its debate about Obamacare, I literally could not get my head around what the debate was about. Come to Australia or the UK (or Canada from how I understand it), and you will change your minds. I have experienced the US health system, and it licks balls (compared to Australia that is - compared to the third world countries I have been treated in, it rocks - having said that, my experience in Thailand's health system beats my experiences in the US). The Australian healthcare system is, in my opinion, the best healthcare I have recieved in the world, and for it's citizens it is almost free.

If we were like Sweden or one of the Northern Euro countries, with crazy high taxes, that would not be surprising, but we have lower taxes than in many US States (when all levels of Federal and State tax are factored in). It is all about priorities.

Again, sorry to hijack the thread, but I think it is relevant, because I really do feel for Icecube (that is why I contributed), but I think America should take a good hard look at its phobia of universal healthcare, and Icecube is a walking real life example of why.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

IceCube57 was kind enough to contact me on Skype to discuss some matters I wanted e-advice on, only then did I find out about his accident. I just sent him a few bucks as a token of my appreciation. I didn't know this fund was active otherwise I would have chipped in sooner. Get well soon.

 

[icecube57]

Heh bills are adding up but some I can pay off. My out of pocket for anesthisia was 5 bucks...
But the surgeon/doctor ripped my ass a new one 10.2k billed to the insurance company. My insurance covers 85%. Payment plan is in order for the remainder. But after the surgery all my follow ups should be free 100% covered or damn near it.

On a different note my wife had a friend with the same insurance we have. She was preggers and went to the doc with some bleeding. She is healthy therefore never went to the doctor alot so her deductible was not met. The doctors office saw this on her plan and asked for her deductible up front before they would see her. It was about a grand. She paid reluctantly. The doctor saw her and said nothing was wrong. She had a miscarriage later that night. Here it is a woman having problems with her preg and ur asking for a wad of money before seeing her but she prob could have got better service from an ER or free clinic.

Some doctors and facilities here are apparently asking for your unpaid deductible if they know they are going to max it out probably... The do this without even filling a claim for the insurance company out then if they were wrong and overbilled you they will give the remainder back. But they ask and do this stuff in exchange for services.. No money no service. That means they dont even want to file a claim to get gauranteed money from insurance company. Its like all or nothing. Id take 85% and worry about the 15% later. Thats what happened when I had to pay that facility fee. If i couldnt pay they said to let them know basically so they could prob reschedule and cancel. They werent trying to set up a payment plan or anything. The thing is they didnt file a claim. The basically asked me to pay my deductible up front. If they would have filed a claim like everyone else then they would have been in line and my deductible woukd have been met by the time their claim was processed to where there was no out of pocket expense. I still had bills from the hospital and doctor visits processing/pending.