Good Batteries?

[dogman dan]

"in pouch cells" I was comparing the weight difference between 14s 15 ah of HK lico, with 16s 15 ah of ping. the ping is about 3 pounds heavier. This is comparing weights of a complete pack, with all wiring. I was not comparing density with the latest sanyo cells which I know dick about. That's why I said " in pouch cells"

So in a 750 wh pack, the difference in weight is not a ball buster. Yes, it's different. But it's not big time different on a pack less than 1000wh. The size though, that can be a ball buster, depending on the shape and size of your bike frame. Pings about 15 pounds, HK about 12 pounds. I see a .5 ah smaller pack from Cellman weighs 10.78 pounds. So now that's a full 5 pounds lighter. Still not a ball buster in that size, but at 11 pounds, that's just about the threshold where carrying it on a rear rack may be pretty tolerable.

I did recommend EM3ev as one of the places to get a good pack. Should I never recommend any other vendor who is also reliable? Regardless of the vague needs stated by the asker?

It's not lost on me that the sanyo cells are better than 2-3c rate. But I don't know enough about them to say they can out punch HK lico. I would not be so surprised if they perform better than the rank ol crappy 20c cells from HK. We know they are really more like 5-10c at best. Some may get a better batch than others, but mine have all sagged like hell if taken above 5c. I doubt they can out punch better quality RC lico, that has claimed c rates above 50c. It might be that you need 50c for the HUGE motor. I never said you need that for a 2000w rig.

If the original question had been "where do you get the best cells to assemble yourself into a pack?" I wouldn't have listed a lot of guys who sell a whole pack. This thead is a classic case of ask a vague question, get vague answers, that lead to an argument. I would say, if you want to assemble your own pack, the sanyo cells look to be the best round cells around at the moment.

So where do you get them, with tabs on them?

 

[dnmun]

i would never ever drive a mercedes. the most offensive fat car for pretentious germans to use to prove how superior they are to the rest of the world. in your face! rich people unite and caste off the worthless groundlings to starve and sweat making more and more money for the rich to stash in bunds.

lifepo4 is more than adequate for almost all commuter uses. cheap, reliable, long lasting. but if you wanna prove how superior you are and make more insulting comments about cheap chinese...blah blah blah

how about what a waste of time it is to build a pack from scratch from lipo in cans. just cheaper and more effective to buy a sun-thing pack or ping pack and live with it for the 3-4 years you can keep the bike before it is stolen.

 

[torker]

Damn Dogman , It doesn't pay to get out of bed some days eh..

 

[schwibsi]

You do get the concept of figurative language, right?

I don't care, what brands you like or don't. Just subsitute it for one that you find good quality.
Sony cells,by the way, are from a Japanese company and manufactured in Japan. So, there's no national pride here.
And say, what you will, I have yet to see a Chinese cell, that compares to them.

I don't get, why you get insulted by my "bashing" Chinese cells.

I have not seen a single Chinese battery pack, that had the internal resistance, capacity or power delivery that was advertised. Every single cell and every single built pack, I've seen so far, were wrongly advertised.
From the Japanese people of Sony, I've never seen a single cell, that did not have the same capacity, internal resistance and power delivery as all the other cells of the same type and exactly as advertised.
That's why you don't need a BMS with them, they don't drift because the are all to spec.

People can be happy with LiFePo4 batteries, and they can be happy with frozen pizza. But both don't compare to the best that's available.

Let's do a quick comparison of the 48V 10Ah Ping battery and a pack made from Sony VTC4 cells.

Capacity:
To make things even, we'll use roughly the same capacity.
48V 10Ah as advertised by Ping
13s5p: 48V 10.5Ah: Sony VTC4 spec sheet.

So capacitywise, these packs are the same.


Price:
The Ping battery is: 472 Dollars incl. shipping, which is 343 Euros, 10% duty plus 19% VAT make that 449€
The 13s5p VTC4 pack is 422.5 Euros at 6.5 Euros per cell incl all materials needed to build. (If you make the pack yourself, it'll be even cheaper)
As far as the price goes: Win for Sony (at least in Germany that is)

Power delivery:
The Ping website says maximum continuous discharge: 20A
VTC 4 max. continuous discharge: 30A per cell, for 5p that makes 150A
Sony delivers 7.5 times the power

Weight:
Ping says: 4.9kg
Sony VTC4: 2.730kg for the cells. Add another 150g for glue, hilumin and copper.
The Ping pack is over 70% heavier than the Sony pack. At roughly the same capacity. The energy density of the Sony pack is 70% higher.

Dimensions:
Ping: 200x105x150mm= 3,150cm³
Sony VTC4: 250*80*70mm= 1,400cm² (other configurations of the same volume easily doable)
Ping battery has 2.25 times the volume

Lifetime:
Ping says: >85% after 1000 cycles
Sony says: >90% after 500 full cycles
The depreciation after those 500 cycles is less.
After 1000 full cycles, they will probably have depreciated the same percentage, but the volumetric density and the gravimetric density of the Sony packs is still much higher.

Power density:
Ping: 4.9kg, max continuous discharge: 20A@48V = 950W ==> 196W/kg
Sony VTC4: 2.9kg, max continuous discharge: 150A@48V = 7200W ==> 2483W/kg
Sony VTC4 has 12.7 times the power density of the Ping pack, or 1170% more.

Ease of use:
Ping: requires a strong BMS, another piece of technology that may fail
Sony VTC4: drift free, internal fuse, no bms required, just LVC, HVC on the charger and a fuse
Clear win for Sony.

In what world do these two products compare to eachother?
I really don't see how that is even a contest. The superiority of the Sony cells is so extreme that I personally cannot understand how somebody, who knows of both options, would opt for the Ping battery.
But hey, I don't understand women either, so maybe this is just another thing in this world that eludes me.

 

[schwibsi]

@ Dogman
Sorry, I don't have any information or experience with either Sanyo or Panasonic sells.
The only cells, I've ever built packs from, are Sony cells.
If you look at my previous post, the weight difference of the LiFePo4 packs to the Sony Li-Ion is huge.

I don't know where you'd get them in the U.S. as I buy mine in Germany. Pity, you're not in Europe. You've helped out me and countless others on this forum, it would have been my pleasure, to weld the tabs on for you for free if you sent me the cells, or put together a pack for you.

If the Sony cells aren't available in the U.S., which I can't imagine, or if there aren't any companies that make bespoke packs from 18650 cells (which I can't really imagine eiher) then you might want to look into Panasonic cells, or well use a different technology. But if you have the choice, I wouldn't go for LiFePo4 anymore.

 

[wesnewell]

That cycle lifetime for Ping batteries is based on less than 1C discharge. Don't know about all ceels, but I can tell you now, I don't want a pack built out of little round 18650 cells that have to be spot welded together, Just takes too many to make up a reasonable pack and leaves too many points for failure, and really makes it a pita to replace bad cells, if that should occur. I'd rather pull all the hairs from my crotch.

 

[schwibsi]

There are no bad Sony 18650 cells. They all have the exact same voltage, when you get them and they'll stay in balance even after years.
They're not like headway cells that you have to take apart and check all the time.

I normally put 8 welding spots on the plus pole and 10-14 on the minus pole.
There is no physical stress on the welds so I really don't see, how that would ever be an issue.

Tesla uses the same cell size and so do all major e-bike manufacturers and most laptop manufacturers. Joining them together and building a proper pack is not that big an issue. You just have to do it right. have never once seen a cell that lost connection due to bad welds.
I've made packs with over 200 cells and it does take some time, but after that you have a carefree solution

By the way: the 500 full cycles of the VTC4 are at 30A constant load (per cell) beginning to end.

 

[Nimbuzz]

Hey schwibsi --That's GREAT! But c'om on guys = Links Please?

Do you sell packs schwibsi or just build for your self?

Who has good packs of the new Sony & etc cells?

Thanks,
A

 

[davec]

finding high quality pre-made packs is a challenge
i would say a pack built out of legit a123 20ah cells, or you can even go the tesla route and build your own from smaller a123/2.3ah cells...like tesla did/ but this is time consuming, and you need a good spot welder

 

[schwibsi]

I mostly make them for family and friends. People here and on the German forum ask me for advice on how to make a packs and sometimes I the packs for them or just do some of the welding, whatever's needed to get the project on track. Over the last few months, there've been some very interesting projects I got the chance to be a part of. I'm sure, a few of these will be presented here on the forum.
If you want advice on how to make your own pack, or need some of the building done, hit me with a pm and we'll see, what we can do together.

People have come with very interesting ideas like putting 30 18650 cells into a SKS Cagebox for the bottle holder, a real bottle-type battery, not those 9cm diameter things they sell on bms-battery.

 

[Nimbuzz]

Where do you find good deals on cells?

2--Can soldering suffice or is welding required?

Thanks,
A

 

[schwibsi]

Sorry, I don't know, where to source them in the U.S.
I advise against soldering, as you are very likely to damage the cells, some more than others, and they may not stay drift free.
Also, they don't accept solder very well, so it'd be a pain.

I strongly advise to see that you get original Sony cells (there is no production in China, so any "Sony" cells coming from there are likely to be fakes) and spotweld them.

 

[Nimbuzz]

Exactly what are the newest Sony cells called?
Thanks,
A

 

[schwibsi]

The ones you want are either US18650V3 or US18650VTC4
The former are higher energy lower power, the latter are high-power, lower energy cells.

 

[Nimbuzz]

sch--Thanks much for the info!

Do you know how the Samsung cells compare to the Sony's? I'm wondering cuz ebikes.ca sells those and it is a very reputable community based shop.

Danke,
A

 

[torker]

sch--Thanks much for the info!

Do you know how the Samsung cells compare to the Sony's? I'm wondering cuz ebikes.ca sells those and it is a very reputable community based shop.

Danke,
A

I think Cellman also carries the Samsung. Also very good vendor. I wonder if all or only legit Sonys are made in Japan. I ask because searching for them I found and the seller shows country of manuf. Korea??

 

[schwibsi]

They might be manufactured in South Korea, too.
All the boxes, I've had so far said "Made in Japan", though, so I couldn't speak to their authenticity.

Getting brand things from China is always difficult. Even the no-brand power-poles and housings aren't the same quality as the originals.
Sometimes the sizes are off by a little and they don't fit together welll and you can wiggle them etc.
Also, getting transitors and other more expensive components is a gamble in China. If you don't buy from a reputable vendor like digikey, you're likely to get some sort of fake, that will not have the specs you actually wanted.
If you ever spent time troubleshooting a controller, taking out the old, broken fets, ordering new (original) fets, waiting for them to arrive, and soldring the new ones back in, saving a few bucks on the Chinese product kinda loses its appeal.
I'll jump at a chance to save a buck as much as the next fellow (and his greedy mother), but with some things you just get, what you pay for. And it seems like something many people have to experience for themselves.

 

[Kai]

Please can someone give link to a suplier in Europe for hose fancy Sony cells

 

[dogman dan]

And there you have why, for many, it's just a lot easier to get a ping. If that is, the ping packs moderate capability is sufficient for your needs.

Does that make a ping superior? Clearly not. But it might be easier.

It's definitely clear that you can get more out of any chemistry in the 18650 format, than in a 5 ah pouch. The sanyo cells sound fantastic But if your needs are modest, it might just be ok to buy a pouch lifepo4, and ride for years. Particularly if you don't know enough to assemble them into a pack.

It's coming though, the 5 ah lifepo4 pouch has already been passed over for limn types. The big problem, is that we don't all have the cash for better cells than china made. That's why I'm currently running nothing but the most horrible hobby lico I could get. It's not what I want, but more like what I could afford the same spring that poor health drove me out of my job.

 

[schwibsi]

I still don't get it.

You can get the packs here for example
http://www.asn-shop.de/E-Bike-Akkupack-37V-11Ah-Sony-Konion2250V3

If you need something bespoke or a little support for your project, I'll be happy to help you out.

The Ping packs are not cheaper, even if you believe 100% of what they advertise.
You'll still have to deal with a company in Asia rather than a local vendor., with all the downsides that brings with it, delivery time, lack of guarantee ...
If you buy a pack here that's advertised as 11Ah and it has less than 10Ah, you'll ask for a refund and the law would be on your side. If you get a pack like that from China, you'll be thankful that you at least got anything instead of losing all your money.

The cells are made by Sony, by the way, not Sanyo.

 

[NaturalPath]

It's coming though, the 5 ah lifepo4 pouch has already been passed over for limn types. The big problem, is that we don't all have the cash for better cells than china made. That's why I'm currently running nothing but the most horrible hobby lico I could get. It's not what I want, but more like what I could afford the same spring that poor health drove me out of my job.[/quote]


This is very true dogman, many of us out here want the best battery that we can afford, rather than the best battery there is. It's hard enough when there are so many variables when it comes to battery choice, acquisition, setup/build. Then when you get a look at the costs involved, you're forced to either cut back on your battery dreams, or get a bit creative, in order to have the best battery that you can have.

 

[schwibsi]

They aren't cheaper!
The only way LiFePo4 is cheaper than LiMn is is you calculate Euros/kg, but that would be plain stupid.

This is not a decision between Shimano's Deore vs. XTR, where the better technology is a lot more expensive. It just isn't. And repeating it doesn't make it more true.
If you're honest to yourself and specify the needs that you have: Voltage, amperage, total capacity, maximum current. Then select the appropriate configuration from each technology, you'll find that it is a very easy decision, when you factor in all relevant data.

And even if (which they aren't) the Sony cells ended up more expensive, shedding several kg of weight, transforms any bike into a completely different vehicle. whether it's 15 instead of 20 or 20 instead of 25kg. Minimizing the weight of a bike on such a large scale is always beneficial.

 

[torker]

I can see where the Sony are competitive with Lifepo4 . Mainly not needing such a large battery. If 10 ah of Sony will outperform 15 or 20 ah of lifepo it makes sense. I have been here awhile reading how DocBass has been using Konions and they have passed every torture test he has put them through. It comes back to cost . At the time I put together a 15s x 5 ah lipo battery for 100 dollars including charger. That is damn cheap for a battery that will outperform a Big heavy lifepo4. Although it is a different animal. Go like hell for 10 miles = lipo or cruise along at 20 amps for 25 mi. big Lifepo

All have their needs. Amps,cost,range,weight.. I want it all I am just ready get away from lipo and get something a little more plug and play. And something with some quality

 

[schwibsi]

Where do you get a 15s 5Ah LiPo pack incl charger for 100 Dollars?

 

[torker]

Where do you get a 15s 5Ah LiPo pack incl charger for 100 Dollars?

HobbyKing. You can pu 5s 5000mah packs as cheap at 25 dollars ea. and Little 80 watt charger is 30 bucks and I modded a old computer psu for 12 volts to run the charger. This is a truly low buck setup I have

Actually my web link near my avatar shows my rockin charging setup I have an old lab psu but it would not run my charger.. That is when I modded a computer supply. It works great.