Halogen Brightness. How to make 'em Brighter?

Patriot

10 kW
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
511
I have a 48v/12v dc converter running my 12v/20w halogens.

What bothers me, is that my commuter bicycle has a cheap 6v/10w Cygo-Lite night rover. The Cygo-Lite is actually the same if not a little brighter than my 12v/20w bulbs on the Ebike.

The spread of the bulbs is about the same, it's just that the 6v seems whiter and brighter. On a fresh charge, the 6v battery is a up around 6.6v, so I suppose it is slightly over volted, but not that much.

So, why would these 12v bulbs not be a WHOLE LOT BRIGHTER than the 6v bulbs?

Maybe I shoul dtry some of those 12v/3w 80-lumen MR-11 LED bulbs on Ebay? Those could easily replace the halogens I have without needing a whole new light body.
 
lumins and candlepower determine brightness as well as the quality and type of the reflector behind the bulb not voltage per say. Get a 220 lumin rechargeable light and it will send a beam to the moon.
 
i overvolt everything
i use a 14.4 v nicd drill bat in my 10,000,000 cp flashlight
in place of the 12v sla and it's way brighter than even my 15 million light...
j m o more volts
 
In my case, I can't over volt them. The converter is at a fixed 12v.


I was wondering what these bulbs may do as far as brightness goes, compared to the stock bulbs that came with the MR11 bodies.

I think I can pull the bulbs and replace them.

They say they put out 350 lumens at 2600K.

http://cgi.ebay.com/20W-20-watt-12V-G4-Bi-Pin-Base-Xenon-Light-Bulb-Lamp_W0QQitemZ220375354694QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item220375354694&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

But if they are Xenon bulbs, why would they be only 2600K?

I thought they should be up around 4000K?
 
Back in the (ahem) Dark Ages when I ran halogens I routinely ran 12 volt bulbs (MR11? MR16? 10 and 20 watts.) on 14.4 volts. I used to think they were bright.

Then I tried 3 watt LED's at one measly amp of current.

I will never return to the Dark Ages. There is no comparison.

MT
 
LED's?

WHat about these at 1.5W/80 Lumens and 15deg?

80 Lumens doesn't seem like very much.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0297061121

MR11_HP.jpg



I want it to fit in an MR11 body.


..
 
Bluntly, I wouldn't spend money on it. I don't think you would be happy with it compared to what 3W LED's bring to the party.

If you're fixed at 12 volts by the converter. by using a bucking driver for the LED's you could still run up to (3) 3 watt LED's from your converter. In fact, if you ran 3 LED's you *might* even be able to get away without a driver. If I recall, the resistance of each LED is a little over 3 ohms, seems like it requires 3.4 volts to get 1 amp to flow. 12 volts across 10.2 ohms would get you over 1 amp, but it might not be enough to blow them. Of course, if your converter output ever dropped below 10.2 you would have no light.

MT
 
Well, these are pricey, but Deal Extreme has these...

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.11931

Same width as MR11.

sku_11931_1.jpg
 
Fitting the MR11 body might be a problem. I used 1" square lenses, but I think 1" diameter is also available. The challenge would be to work everything (including some kind of small heatsink beneath the LED) into the MR11 envelope. I don't recall seeing a 3W LED packaged in an MR11 format.

This photo shows (4) 3W LED's built into an approx. 2" cube.

MT
 
I found this 5W LED on a star heat sink, but don't know what else it would need, including what voltage and lumens rating it has. :(

If it was 12v, I'd be giving it a shot.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.4516

sku_4516_1.jpg


I could easily modify an MR11 reflector to hold one of these on the backside of it.
 
You need to use thermally conductive epoxy to attach the star to the "real" heatsink that should be behind it. Ideally, the heatsink is a small chunk of metal that will conduct heat away from the star and dissipate it to air.

Also, you need to position the emitter at the correct location relative to the reflector to get the proper beam shape. The lenses I mentioned earlier are designed to adhere (sticky tape) to the top side of the star and automatically position the emitter at the right location.

I've bought some stars from DealExtreme & you can't beat the price if you want to pick up some odds and ends to experiment with. If you can figure out the packaging you want, I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the brightness.

I know it's hard to tell from a photo, but maybe this give an idea what 12 watts looks like:

MT
 

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Patriot & MT,

Thanks for the reminder to take another look at LEDs. The prices have really come down on the high power stuff, so now it's time to light my bikes like Christmas trees for under $100 and use only 20W or so instead of the 50W headlight + 20/30W running/brake light.

How can you tell which LEDs need special drivers and heat sinks vs the simple to use ones?

John
 
Going out on a limb, but IMO and as a practical matter, you should plan to use a driver. LED's don't work like an incandescent filament. Incandescent lights you can overvolt (within reason) or undervolt, and run them until the white turns to orange turns to red and finally stops giving off visible light. They're basically a crude device.

LED's want constant current, so as battery voltage perhaps starts too high or too low, the driver can compensate accordingly to maintain the proper current level.

Drivers come in 2 flavors, bucking or boosting. Bucking can reduce battery voltage that would be dangerous to the LED to a level it can work with and maintain the proper current level. Likewise, boosting can take a battery voltage that is theoretically too low to operate the LED, and boost it high enough to make it produce light. The drivers are able to do this because they can switch the LED on and off more rapidly than the eye can detect. A boosting driver raises the voltage, fires the LED, your eye registers light, the LED turns off while the driver recharges, and then it fires again before your eye registers that it went out. The driver will work to maintain the proper current through the LED.

If you don't use a driver, then you need to carefully match the voltage necessary to operate the LED to what the battery will produce. A little too much voltage will drive too much current through the LED. Likewise, as the voltage drops so will the current and the brightness until the voltage goes below what's needed to operate the LED, at which point it goes out. Without a driver, this could be a fairly narrow range.

The one I used is a bucking driver called an nFlex and cost ~$30. There are cheaper ones, but this one has many nice features. You can supply battery voltage up to 30 V and it will control the max current through your LED to 1 amp. It provides for 3 user-settable current levels up to 1 amp that you can access in programming mode. It offers a flash mode, lockout mode (to prevent accidental operation), and limp-home mode in case it sees battery voltage getting close to the point where the LED's go dark.

Of course, you need to be sure the battery has enough "headroom" to keep the LED(s) operational. That is, add up the necessary voltage for each LED and be sure the battery voltage is sufficiently higher than that so as your battery voltage slowly decreases, it is still high enough to operate the LED's. My 4 LED system requires something like 13.6 volts minimum. My old halogen battery pack provided 14.4 volts, which I did not consider to be enough headroom. I replaced it with a 25.9 volt lithium-ion pack. Works like a champ. The driver controls the current to a perfect 1 amp max, or whatever preset levels less than that I program into it.

I have not used a boosting driver, but the idea is the same. It will take a battery voltage that is theoretically too low and boost it high enough to run the LED's. Within limits. Eventually the battery voltage will be too low for the driver to fully compensate for and the LED will begin to dim until it suddenly goes out.

Bucking or boosting, the driver allows the LED to operate over a much wider range of battery voltage than it could otherwise.

Heatsink---LED light output dimishes as the LED heats up. In a sense, in this way it is self-limiting. But a heatsink provides more stable operation. MagLite, for example, makes a LED module that's a drop-in replacement for the halogen bulb. Problem is, the heatsink is minimal and dimming over time is a reported issue. No real formula to figuring out the heatsink that I know of. Get some metal under the star, bond with thermally conductive epoxy, and try to expose the metal to air. I've even seen some homemade designs that incorporate an airscoop! My 4-light unit gets warm to the touch (maybe 105F) after an hour of operation, and the heatsink is nothing more than a 1/4" thick piece of brass. I'd use aluminum next time....used that on my 3-light unit.

Lenses are custom designed according to the LED brand and construction and attach with sticky tape. But at $1 each you can buy a bunch and play around with different shaped packages.

You can see the lenses, brass heatsink, and the end of the driver pcb in the photo below.

Since the light bulb was invented, light has been produced as a byproduct of making heat. LED's change everything. Now, heat is produced as a byproduct of making light.

MT
 

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I don't think voltage is an issue for me as the supply will be from my DC/DC converter. I am looking at this package deal http://cgi.ebay.com/2-3w-LEDs-2-Hea...sidZp1742.m153.l1262?_trksid=p1742.m153.l1262

It's two 3W white LEDs, 2 drivers, and 2 heat sinks for $20 and free shipping. That should make a good headlight, if not then 4 definitely should be enough. Then I can wire the rest of the bike with a bunch of regular LEDs that come with the proper resistor for 12V operation.

The other interesting one is five 3W Luxeons for $18 shipped. http://cgi.ebay.com/5-Prolight-3W-H...sidZp1742.m153.l1262?_trksid=p1742.m153.l1262

That seems cheap enough to risk mounting 3 in series on a heat sink, and use a LED wiring wizard, http://led.linear1.org/led.wiz , to calculate the appropriate resistor for my stable voltage source. The wizard seems concerned about the 1W or so dissipated in the resistor, but I already have some appropriate resistors from my old speaker building hobby, and I'm sure I can dig up a suitable lens and reflector.

John
 
halogens are rated for thr "AUTOMOTIVE" nominal 12V system. which meant the normal voltage of a car battery, which was 13.8V. halogens really don't give off any light until they get hot enough, and that won't happen until you are over 13.5V

rick
 
If I was to find a 5W LED that could take 12v, then I'm not so sure I would need a driver. The DC converter I'm using puts out a very stable 12.1vdc, and never waivers, because the main pack is 48v.

I'm not so sure that 5W LED/Star is rated at 12v though.




Here's another option I found. I could easily modify the MR11 light body to hold one of these. I would assume driving at 12v wouldn't kill it.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.13802

It has a CREE XRE-Q5 LED. Pretty bright.

This one has an even larger voltage range.

http://www.dealextreme.com/feedbacks/BrowseReviews.dx/sku.11836

sku_13802_1.jpg
 
Searching online for a 5W led, what I see is an assembly of 3 led's running 1.3 watts each. Taking a quick look around CREE's website I don't find a single element led rated at 5W. The highest light output led is 122 lumens at 350 ma, with a ~700 ma max current. Otherwise, the XR-E series puts out 107 lumens at 350 ma, but can go up to 1000 ma max.

Looking at the DX module I doubt that running it on 12.1 volts would hurt it. The challenge will be to get rid of the heat. Heat sink grease, maybe?

@John: You'll need lenses. http://led-spot.com/index.shtml might have something that will fit.

MT
 
At Deal Extreme, this 3w spotlight look slike a very tempting bulb. I just may try one of them. I posted on their forum, so we'll see if any of my questions get answered. Unless someone here knows the answers to these?

SKU 11931- I wanted to know some specs.

1. How many lumens does it produce?

2. What wattage halogen is it equal to?

3. What degree spread are they?

4. Do you have a picture showing the hot spot from several feet away, instead of so close?

5. Does it require specific +/- leads hookup? Some will be damaged if you hook them up reverse polarity.

sku_11931_1.jpg
 
I'm liking a halogen light that came off my EV global bike. I just run 44 v straigh into it off the battery. I'm sure it sucks amps, but I have extra on the dark ride in the morning since it's downhill. A guy on ebay had some for sale, just search EV Global and he'll pop up if he still has any. Kinda pricy though. Another option is look at electircscooterparts.com I think they have halogen bulbs in 48v dc.
 
@Patriot: I looked at that on DX also. You're on the right track w/your questions. The beam angle in the photos looked pretty wide to me.

These 3W led's are so brilliantly bright/bluish-white that even if an oncoming vehicle is outside of the beam, it's still hard to look at. I picked the tightest focus I could find for that exact reason, then aimed it slightly off to the side, and then still drop to 30% power for oncoming traffic. Of course, that was 4 led's but even a single one at full brilliance is amazing.

One night while I was riding out in the country, unbeknownst to me, my wife pulled up to an intersection just as I was approaching. I was running full power on the light. She had to stop, I didn't. I rode on thru, then she turned in behind me. Still didn't know it was her. She eventually pulls out and goes around me. I'm thinking hmmm, that looks like our car, and didn't immediately dim the light. Eventually had a doh-h-h moment and dipped it. Got home a while later and got a real earful about being obscenely bright, bad for oncoming traffic, etc etc etc.

Last fall we did a Halloween night ride on a bike trail. I brought up the rear of ~50 riders stretched out along a 1/4 mile section of trail. On a straight section of trail, the guys in front could see their own shadows from my light. From my vantage point, watching 50 sets of reflectors lit up was kind of cool.

MT
 
If you look at this photo, it appears to have a 90deg spread.

But then in the middle, it almost looks like a 20-30deg hot spot.

I can't help but think I should order one, and just see what it's like. I assume I can hook this up to straight 12v supply, and the polarity doesn't matter, as the bulb doesn't appear to be marked. Maybe these have a bi-directional polarity circuit?

My guess, is that it may also be using a 3w Luxeon led.

sku_11931_7.jpg


sku_11931_8.jpg
 
Now I'm wondering if I could set my light on the driveway and see what the pattern looks like on the ground.

I'll give that a try.

MT
 
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