here's an interesting ev business site
- Thread starter kisshu
- Start date
knightmb
100 kW
I really like their electric motorcycle. Good speed, range, looks like a solid design to my laymen eyes. The only thing that gets me is the price. For $15,000 I'm certain I could put together an e-bike that does 60MPH at about 300 miles range, 
mvadventure
1 kW
- Joined
- May 2, 2007
- Messages
- 419
15K is as good as a death warrant for a motorcycle that has a 60MPH top end (or even cruising speed) and a range of 300 miles. Even at ten dollars a gallon for gasoline BMW, arguably the best motorcycle builder in the world, will sell you a bike that will outperform that for less than 9K brand new and they have several models in that price range.
You gotta really like being green to pay the extra bucks and still, probably, sacrifice reliability and the ability to refuel conveniently. I think it will be hard enough to sell them for as little as 6 or 7K.
I realize it's not the cost of fuel that puts most of us on our electric bicycles, it's the convenience of a bicycle, the ability to ride it places cars and motorcycles can't go, the silly little EV grin and the almost total lack of regulation. For this convenience we'll put up with limited range and if we need lots of range we know we'll have to put lots of money into batteries and slow down a little. Faced with a 15K no name unproven electric motorcycle and looking at the fossil fueled competition the fossil fuel economically wins hands down.
Mike
You gotta really like being green to pay the extra bucks and still, probably, sacrifice reliability and the ability to refuel conveniently. I think it will be hard enough to sell them for as little as 6 or 7K.
I realize it's not the cost of fuel that puts most of us on our electric bicycles, it's the convenience of a bicycle, the ability to ride it places cars and motorcycles can't go, the silly little EV grin and the almost total lack of regulation. For this convenience we'll put up with limited range and if we need lots of range we know we'll have to put lots of money into batteries and slow down a little. Faced with a 15K no name unproven electric motorcycle and looking at the fossil fueled competition the fossil fuel economically wins hands down.
Mike
yeah, sadly most ev's are overpriced but even now i see electric powered motorscooters selling at below gas powered prices. most of the expensive ones are start-ups that had to invest alot more initially. the major manufacturers in the usa are feeling the heat from foriegn designs now but most didn't want to give up their oil based energy economies without a fight- the ev1 was doa even with backorders - most all prototypes pulled from market and destroyed.
there is really no reason for ev's to be so expensive the design is simpler than a combustion engine - also lighter plastic composits are becoming available - stronger than aluminum and won't corrode.
you see how advanced and cheap computers are now - soon so will transportation be and clean too. the change will come suddenly - entire infrastuctures will transform- thats where the resistance surfaces entities that don't want to change or aren't quick enough they will become extinct.
there is really no reason for ev's to be so expensive the design is simpler than a combustion engine - also lighter plastic composits are becoming available - stronger than aluminum and won't corrode.
you see how advanced and cheap computers are now - soon so will transportation be and clean too. the change will come suddenly - entire infrastuctures will transform- thats where the resistance surfaces entities that don't want to change or aren't quick enough they will become extinct.
knightmb
100 kW
mvadventure said:
That's the thing, that one listed above doesn't. It's top speed is 50 MPH at 45 miles range. My current 48 volt e-bike is already that minus the top speed. With another battery pack I can do 50 MPH at about 20 miles range. If I threw all the NiMH packs out and go Litho like some of the packs I've seen here, I could spend another $2000, get twice the range and still be well under the $15K price tag they have.
As others said, I don't understand where the inflated price tag is coming from? Would it cost maybe $5K to build that bike and they sell it for $15K?
Johnbear
10 kW
Locally a EVT or similar scooter sells for 3500, others sell for 4000. A comperable performance gas scooter is 2000. The battery life and range are poor, - we really do need better solutions. I would love to ride an EVT concept scooter for local runs (so I could put plates and insurance on it) but the price is too high. Anyone have links to cheaper DOT approved scooters?
Thanks!
Thanks!
mvadventure
1 kW
- Joined
- May 2, 2007
- Messages
- 419
As a consumer it's very frustrating to be on the outside looking in. Top CEO's are making tens and in a few cases, hundreds of million dollars. Entertainers, including sports figures, are in some cases making even more. Jay Leno and Dave Letterman earn more than 20 million dollars a year for sitting behind a desk interviewing these same celebrities.
The new Harry Potter movie took in over 150 million dollars the first week!
But Firefly can't get a battery to market. There is NO reliable source for EV batteries that I've found. Sources for bicycle batteries offer a confusing array of products that are more often than not out of stock and require a great deal of consumer research. Most of the suppliers I've contacted via email leave their messages in cyberspace and don't respond.
SLA, NiMh, NiCd, LiPo and all the other initials present a confusing and often dangerous array of energy sources to the prospective designer. On this forum we have three or four members who actually understand them, the rest of us simply read along and hope to garner enough knowledge to keep our bikes running.
If LiPo4 turns out to be the answer the prices will have to tumble. The best I've seen is $920 plus a charger for 48 Volts and about 15 AH. This would give me a safe 20-25 mile range. For ease of figuring, lets go with a thousand dollars.
1,000 miles equal 1 dollar per mile plus cost of bike and motor
2,000 .50
4,000 .25
8,000 .125
My Lexus get about 21 MPG. High test was $3.19 yesterday when I filled it up. Fuel cost is fifteen cents per mile plus the car, insurance and the rest of it and I don't have to sit on a bike for FOUR THOUSAND miles.
In the meantime I now have about 700 miles on my Crystalyte 5304 with 4 B&B 12V 12 AH batteries and feel confident based on reserve supplies after a ten mile run using my "watts up" meter that I will be able to get at least that many more miles. Using SLA's I'll get 1,500 miles for about $120 worth of batteries or about .08 a mile. Shipping of course will up the cost of those batteries so the cost per mile goes up. Right now though it appears I'm paying at least .08 cents per mile for fuel to ride a bike and .15 cents per mile to ride in my Lexus.
For the sake of argument I won't mention that my boat burns an average of 18-19 gallons of diesel fuel per hour and that in a good hour, counting slow downs, passing, being passed, no wake zones, it's hard to average 22 or 23 miles an hour. But the boat produces sufficient energy to provide AC, plenty of electrical power, charges my EV scooters and provides sleeping and bathroom facilities.
Until the battery problem is resolved and Firefly may be the answer, it going to take either innovative engineering or the willingness for the consumer to remain on a bicycle for efficient electric vehicles.
But, and this is the major but, I don't know squat about electric bicycles and even less about electric cars (I did test drive a Prius). I'm that awful person, the "Consumer" that merely wants to buy something after someone else builds it. I have learned from reading this forum that while there may be a bike or two out there that would meet my requirements there are no automobiles or motorcycles now or in the near future.
Mike
The new Harry Potter movie took in over 150 million dollars the first week!
But Firefly can't get a battery to market. There is NO reliable source for EV batteries that I've found. Sources for bicycle batteries offer a confusing array of products that are more often than not out of stock and require a great deal of consumer research. Most of the suppliers I've contacted via email leave their messages in cyberspace and don't respond.
SLA, NiMh, NiCd, LiPo and all the other initials present a confusing and often dangerous array of energy sources to the prospective designer. On this forum we have three or four members who actually understand them, the rest of us simply read along and hope to garner enough knowledge to keep our bikes running.
If LiPo4 turns out to be the answer the prices will have to tumble. The best I've seen is $920 plus a charger for 48 Volts and about 15 AH. This would give me a safe 20-25 mile range. For ease of figuring, lets go with a thousand dollars.
1,000 miles equal 1 dollar per mile plus cost of bike and motor
2,000 .50
4,000 .25
8,000 .125
My Lexus get about 21 MPG. High test was $3.19 yesterday when I filled it up. Fuel cost is fifteen cents per mile plus the car, insurance and the rest of it and I don't have to sit on a bike for FOUR THOUSAND miles.
In the meantime I now have about 700 miles on my Crystalyte 5304 with 4 B&B 12V 12 AH batteries and feel confident based on reserve supplies after a ten mile run using my "watts up" meter that I will be able to get at least that many more miles. Using SLA's I'll get 1,500 miles for about $120 worth of batteries or about .08 a mile. Shipping of course will up the cost of those batteries so the cost per mile goes up. Right now though it appears I'm paying at least .08 cents per mile for fuel to ride a bike and .15 cents per mile to ride in my Lexus.
For the sake of argument I won't mention that my boat burns an average of 18-19 gallons of diesel fuel per hour and that in a good hour, counting slow downs, passing, being passed, no wake zones, it's hard to average 22 or 23 miles an hour. But the boat produces sufficient energy to provide AC, plenty of electrical power, charges my EV scooters and provides sleeping and bathroom facilities.
Until the battery problem is resolved and Firefly may be the answer, it going to take either innovative engineering or the willingness for the consumer to remain on a bicycle for efficient electric vehicles.
But, and this is the major but, I don't know squat about electric bicycles and even less about electric cars (I did test drive a Prius). I'm that awful person, the "Consumer" that merely wants to buy something after someone else builds it. I have learned from reading this forum that while there may be a bike or two out there that would meet my requirements there are no automobiles or motorcycles now or in the near future.
Mike
xyster
10 MW
That was an excellent post from a different perspective, mvadv.
I suppose I am too for some things that learning enough about takes away too much time from learning about other stuff I find more interesting. Mostly, I feel that way about stuff I have no practical ability to build myself anyway. If I can reasonably do it, I usually love learning how to do it. Like others of a technical bent, I have an insatiable desire to understand how stuff works. I don't "get" the average consumer, as you describe yourself. For example, you said:
I got into this small EV thing about a year ago. Up until then, I had little knowledge of batteries and zero experience building battery packs. But I looked at what others were doing and decided it looked easy enough; that there were precious few types to learn about (mostly the ones you mentioned) and the practical principles were all the same (basically: amps, volts, capacity, drainrate, series/parallel wiring, charging/chargers) -- each of those chunks, which I organized my learning into, seemed simple and straightforward. Since I didn't need to actually manufacture any cells, just string them together in the right way, I figured I can skim-through or skip all the deep electrochemical stuff and focus on the practical stuff. The hard stuff of building a cell was already done for me. And at $3/per, the cells seemed cheap for what I was getting.
So a year ago, after reading about batteries for a few weeks at the Old V forum, following up on info links and pestering members with lots of questions, I thought to myself, "wow, there's not much here at all that I need to learn in order to construct my own lithium pack." Cool! I'd rather build it myself anyway. That way, if it doesn't work I have only myself to blame, if it does work I'm filled with fuzzy-warm pride-of-design feelings, and (most importantly) it's more likely to work than if I pay somebody else to do what I can do myself.
And so my project began in earnest. I studied intensely for a few weeks, designed in my mind the pack for a few more, got the stuff together and built a pack of 300 li-ion cells. Lo and behold, it worked almost exactly as I expected. I had one major overdischarge incident because I didn't expect the cells' voltage would plummet so fast from 3.7v to cell-reversal. But no prob, I just replaced the dead cells and made sure not to run them down that far again. Simple.
If everything in my life had been as simple as building a lithium pack, I'd have had a comparatively soft, simple life indeed. I've spent tons of money for seven years of college and post-college schooling. A few weeks of study for such a reward is a very good deal to me.
That's why I have trouble relating to the "average" consumer and their (from my point of view) borderline phobia of delving right into matters technical to the best of his or her ability. It's like most people don't want to have to think...do you not like thinking? I love thinking, I think.
I suppose I am too for some things that learning enough about takes away too much time from learning about other stuff I find more interesting. Mostly, I feel that way about stuff I have no practical ability to build myself anyway. If I can reasonably do it, I usually love learning how to do it. Like others of a technical bent, I have an insatiable desire to understand how stuff works. I don't "get" the average consumer, as you describe yourself. For example, you said:
I got into this small EV thing about a year ago. Up until then, I had little knowledge of batteries and zero experience building battery packs. But I looked at what others were doing and decided it looked easy enough; that there were precious few types to learn about (mostly the ones you mentioned) and the practical principles were all the same (basically: amps, volts, capacity, drainrate, series/parallel wiring, charging/chargers) -- each of those chunks, which I organized my learning into, seemed simple and straightforward. Since I didn't need to actually manufacture any cells, just string them together in the right way, I figured I can skim-through or skip all the deep electrochemical stuff and focus on the practical stuff. The hard stuff of building a cell was already done for me. And at $3/per, the cells seemed cheap for what I was getting.
So a year ago, after reading about batteries for a few weeks at the Old V forum, following up on info links and pestering members with lots of questions, I thought to myself, "wow, there's not much here at all that I need to learn in order to construct my own lithium pack." Cool! I'd rather build it myself anyway. That way, if it doesn't work I have only myself to blame, if it does work I'm filled with fuzzy-warm pride-of-design feelings, and (most importantly) it's more likely to work than if I pay somebody else to do what I can do myself.
And so my project began in earnest. I studied intensely for a few weeks, designed in my mind the pack for a few more, got the stuff together and built a pack of 300 li-ion cells. Lo and behold, it worked almost exactly as I expected. I had one major overdischarge incident because I didn't expect the cells' voltage would plummet so fast from 3.7v to cell-reversal. But no prob, I just replaced the dead cells and made sure not to run them down that far again. Simple.
If everything in my life had been as simple as building a lithium pack, I'd have had a comparatively soft, simple life indeed. I've spent tons of money for seven years of college and post-college schooling. A few weeks of study for such a reward is a very good deal to me.
That's why I have trouble relating to the "average" consumer and their (from my point of view) borderline phobia of delving right into matters technical to the best of his or her ability. It's like most people don't want to have to think...do you not like thinking? I love thinking, I think.
mvadventure
1 kW
- Joined
- May 2, 2007
- Messages
- 419
Actually I love the thinking part and am a major Edward de Bono fan. It's not either the thinking or the learning, it's the time spent doing so I simply don't want to take the time for in batteries.
I do 90% of the maintenance and service work on my boats diesel engines, 99% of the work on my 50 year old Rolls and have a very complete workshop devoted primarily to woodworking. The search is always on to reach a single digit handicap in my golf game and in addition to the two electric scooters, electric bicycle, I also have a Cannondale that I ride.
This week, including Sunday, I've put an extra coat of paint on my dock (four gallons of paint), taken down and hauled off a dead scrub oak, biked over 20 miles, changed engine zincs on two 480 HP engines and a 8 KW generator, painted the cooling vents on the generator, cleaned the raw water side of two air conditioning systems, played 18 holes of golf, spent a couple hours cleaning out the attic and took my bride to dinner and Wednesday doesn't start until tomorrow. Consider that I'm going to get my Medicare this year and do most of the maintenance on our 10,000 square foot home and I'm a pretty busy person.
I'd much rather spend my time figuring out how to make a compound miter than study battery chemistry. Several years ago I needed to learn how to provide statistical research for my business. Computer software was not really available but books and engineering calculators were so I spent many evenings and early mornings learning and relearning basic algebra and calculus and eventually gained sufficient knowledge of statistics that would meet my needs.
Within two years Lotus put most of what I learned into new versions of 123. A year later programs were available for less than a hundred dollars that knew a lot more than I did. I have a feeling that is exactly what would happen if I took the time to study the battery chemistry I would need in order to understand it well enough to make informed decisions.
About 9 years ago I put an electric motor on my bike. It was a Z.A.P. friction drive motor with a 12 volt 21 AH battery and it did great. I did learn a little about batteries when I tried adding another to increase my range. I was working with Habitat For Humanity and biking about 14 miles each way to a job site and would be tired on the ride home which was ALWAYS into the wind. Unfortunately that is about where my battery knowledge stopped.
There are lots of folks like me, simply too busy or have too many other interests to delve deeply into different technology's. I remain fine with basic electricity and have no problem working in a high amp environment or tackling a moderately complicated plumbing job. It's just that time constraints coupled with the amount of knowledge I would need and the simple fact that electrical theory is a subject I find boring combine to make me a "consumer" rather than a researcher of batteries. The funny part about this is I maintain two batteries in my cars, four on my scooters, four on my bike, two starting batteries and an 8D on my boat and until the last six weeks or so six more 8 volt batteries in my golf cart (since sold) But all of these are either flooded or SLA and I couldn't tell you for a hundred dollars what the batteries are in my portable power tools.
So, for me at least, I would really like to see a SIMPLE section on a web site devoted to selling batteries. This section would provide a cost analysis for each type of battery, charging times and naturally weight. Voltage and AH ratings would be necessary as would the type of controller and charger necessary.
Iloveebikes.com has/had some LiPo batteries that I think would meet my needs. Phone calls and emails have not been returned. As a result I don't KNOW if they would meet my needs and at my age I don't beg anyone to take my money. I understand LiPo AH provide more power than SLA AH do but how much I don't know. My lack of knowledge makes me an unhappy consumer but I can live with the range I have now and can simply replace my SLA's for around 120 to 150 bucks when the time comes and the vendors can suck eggs. Who knows, in a year or so the EV grin may go away and I'll buy one of those BMW's. I doubt it though.
Mike
I do 90% of the maintenance and service work on my boats diesel engines, 99% of the work on my 50 year old Rolls and have a very complete workshop devoted primarily to woodworking. The search is always on to reach a single digit handicap in my golf game and in addition to the two electric scooters, electric bicycle, I also have a Cannondale that I ride.
This week, including Sunday, I've put an extra coat of paint on my dock (four gallons of paint), taken down and hauled off a dead scrub oak, biked over 20 miles, changed engine zincs on two 480 HP engines and a 8 KW generator, painted the cooling vents on the generator, cleaned the raw water side of two air conditioning systems, played 18 holes of golf, spent a couple hours cleaning out the attic and took my bride to dinner and Wednesday doesn't start until tomorrow. Consider that I'm going to get my Medicare this year and do most of the maintenance on our 10,000 square foot home and I'm a pretty busy person.
I'd much rather spend my time figuring out how to make a compound miter than study battery chemistry. Several years ago I needed to learn how to provide statistical research for my business. Computer software was not really available but books and engineering calculators were so I spent many evenings and early mornings learning and relearning basic algebra and calculus and eventually gained sufficient knowledge of statistics that would meet my needs.
Within two years Lotus put most of what I learned into new versions of 123. A year later programs were available for less than a hundred dollars that knew a lot more than I did. I have a feeling that is exactly what would happen if I took the time to study the battery chemistry I would need in order to understand it well enough to make informed decisions.
About 9 years ago I put an electric motor on my bike. It was a Z.A.P. friction drive motor with a 12 volt 21 AH battery and it did great. I did learn a little about batteries when I tried adding another to increase my range. I was working with Habitat For Humanity and biking about 14 miles each way to a job site and would be tired on the ride home which was ALWAYS into the wind. Unfortunately that is about where my battery knowledge stopped.
There are lots of folks like me, simply too busy or have too many other interests to delve deeply into different technology's. I remain fine with basic electricity and have no problem working in a high amp environment or tackling a moderately complicated plumbing job. It's just that time constraints coupled with the amount of knowledge I would need and the simple fact that electrical theory is a subject I find boring combine to make me a "consumer" rather than a researcher of batteries. The funny part about this is I maintain two batteries in my cars, four on my scooters, four on my bike, two starting batteries and an 8D on my boat and until the last six weeks or so six more 8 volt batteries in my golf cart (since sold) But all of these are either flooded or SLA and I couldn't tell you for a hundred dollars what the batteries are in my portable power tools.
So, for me at least, I would really like to see a SIMPLE section on a web site devoted to selling batteries. This section would provide a cost analysis for each type of battery, charging times and naturally weight. Voltage and AH ratings would be necessary as would the type of controller and charger necessary.
Iloveebikes.com has/had some LiPo batteries that I think would meet my needs. Phone calls and emails have not been returned. As a result I don't KNOW if they would meet my needs and at my age I don't beg anyone to take my money. I understand LiPo AH provide more power than SLA AH do but how much I don't know. My lack of knowledge makes me an unhappy consumer but I can live with the range I have now and can simply replace my SLA's for around 120 to 150 bucks when the time comes and the vendors can suck eggs. Who knows, in a year or so the EV grin may go away and I'll buy one of those BMW's. I doubt it though.
Mike
xyster
10 MW
That was interesting, Mike. Kind of a study in contradictions. I suppose I'd find learning to knit my own sweaters rather boring. Even though I wear sweaters, I'm not otherwise working with textiles in other ways all day long like you're working with electricity, and on projects far, far more complex than building a battery pack for your bike.
When it comes time to replace the SLAs, you might find it worth it to grab the same Lithium Manganese (LiMn) pack and charger that Ypedal is using:
http://www.forsenusa.com/batteries.html
That's my best, quickie-suggestion at this point in time for a consumer-tested (albeit one consumer, Ypedal) pre-built lithium battery solution from a vendor that's actually delivered a working product as advertised.
When it comes time to replace the SLAs, you might find it worth it to grab the same Lithium Manganese (LiMn) pack and charger that Ypedal is using:
http://www.forsenusa.com/batteries.html
That's my best, quickie-suggestion at this point in time for a consumer-tested (albeit one consumer, Ypedal) pre-built lithium battery solution from a vendor that's actually delivered a working product as advertised.
mvadventure
1 kW
- Joined
- May 2, 2007
- Messages
- 419
Thank you, when it's time I'll probably give them a try, the web page is now in my "favorites" column.
In a way you're right about the study in contradictions but from my point of view I have to look up, each time, power requirements for appliances and double check loads for wire size before putting a new breaker in service. By the same token the physical portion of the job whether it requires a new panel or merely expanding an existing panel is the interesting part.
Last week one leg of a 220 volt 50 amp outlet on my dock was only showing 50 volts, insufficient to even get past the safety systems on the boat. Since there are two junction boxes between the outlet and the main panel I naturally checked both and found identical results which led me to the main panel. The breaker checked OK with 110 coming out of either side however the results at the outlet remained the same but several checks of the breaker indicated an uneven performance.
Since it happened to be a Sunday and the local hardware store was closed and I needed the breaker to work, I pulled the breaker (60 AMP) from the pool heater and used it. One leg of the breaker had been bad and has since been replaced.
But, (ain't but a great word) at no time did I require any knowledge of chemistry to complete the task. Mostly what I needed to know beyond basic mechanical skills was that the 50 amps would kill me quickly and that the 200 amps feeding the box would kill me quicker.
Mike
In a way you're right about the study in contradictions but from my point of view I have to look up, each time, power requirements for appliances and double check loads for wire size before putting a new breaker in service. By the same token the physical portion of the job whether it requires a new panel or merely expanding an existing panel is the interesting part.
Last week one leg of a 220 volt 50 amp outlet on my dock was only showing 50 volts, insufficient to even get past the safety systems on the boat. Since there are two junction boxes between the outlet and the main panel I naturally checked both and found identical results which led me to the main panel. The breaker checked OK with 110 coming out of either side however the results at the outlet remained the same but several checks of the breaker indicated an uneven performance.
Since it happened to be a Sunday and the local hardware store was closed and I needed the breaker to work, I pulled the breaker (60 AMP) from the pool heater and used it. One leg of the breaker had been bad and has since been replaced.
But, (ain't but a great word) at no time did I require any knowledge of chemistry to complete the task. Mostly what I needed to know beyond basic mechanical skills was that the 50 amps would kill me quickly and that the 200 amps feeding the box would kill me quicker.
Mike
mvadventure said:
Well, technically, the 50 amps will kill you just as fast as the 200 amps, since your body will not trip the breaker or come close to drawing that much current. About 0.01 amps is enough to kill most people. Isn't science great
Not only is it hard to find a decent battery, but electric bikes in general suck unless you build your own. There are very few commercially available models that aren't junk.
I was changing the timing belt on my son's Accura last weekend and was thinking about how much precision machine work and materials go into a typical car engine and how much simpler electric motors are to build. Then wondering why electric motors are so much more expensive (per h.p.).
I only hope things will change over time. Motors and controllers are fairly well developed at this point, but batteries still suck.
xyster
10 MW
Fortunately for us, body parts are good resistors.
Ypedal
100 TW
Batteries... ugh..
They keep evolving at the rate of bunnies. The " Next greatest thing " is always just around the corner.. 2nd generation.. 3rd generation.. better BMS.. better chargers... less weight... it never seems to end.
I'm with Mvadventure on this, i do not have the time to spend learning the chemical properties and manufacturing processes in the Nanophosphate powder used .. .. ... .. ....
BUT.. i do have a good understanding of C rate, and Internal Resistance, and VxA=W etc... I leave the engineering stuff to the engineers. Then test stuff at the consumer level, as a consumer. I refuse to sell, what i refuse to use.
I'm in this for the long haul, and i'm learning alot on a daily basis, i read everything i can find, and have gone to the next level of investing in a sample shipment from crystalyte. I have sold a few kits, and one complete bike so far.. a real eye opener to see how newbies and experienced tinkerers differ..
Looking at the CTC ( canadian tire corp, big canadian auto-parts etc chain of stores ) Ebikes, complete ebikes for 600 $. There is no way to compete with the buying power of these large stores. So i'm making alot of effort in the next level of quality and custom configuations.
I currently see 2 ways to go about the Ebike kit thing.
1- Do it yourself
2- Pre-built ready to ride.
The Do-it-yourself market is out there, looking at Justin from ebikes.ca selling out of parts is a fine example, he's done great in the past few years, excellent support, good variety of parts, one stop shop with batteries, motors, controllers, etc etc..
And then you have the low-volume, high-price, quality designed setups like Optibike for example. I like this aproach, build less.. but build them right.
If and when the battery thing finally matures into something dependable, easy to use, and safe enough for the masses, i'll be ready.. hopefully. :wink:
They keep evolving at the rate of bunnies. The " Next greatest thing " is always just around the corner.. 2nd generation.. 3rd generation.. better BMS.. better chargers... less weight... it never seems to end.
I'm with Mvadventure on this, i do not have the time to spend learning the chemical properties and manufacturing processes in the Nanophosphate powder used .. .. ... .. ....
BUT.. i do have a good understanding of C rate, and Internal Resistance, and VxA=W etc... I leave the engineering stuff to the engineers. Then test stuff at the consumer level, as a consumer. I refuse to sell, what i refuse to use.
I'm in this for the long haul, and i'm learning alot on a daily basis, i read everything i can find, and have gone to the next level of investing in a sample shipment from crystalyte. I have sold a few kits, and one complete bike so far.. a real eye opener to see how newbies and experienced tinkerers differ..
Looking at the CTC ( canadian tire corp, big canadian auto-parts etc chain of stores ) Ebikes, complete ebikes for 600 $. There is no way to compete with the buying power of these large stores. So i'm making alot of effort in the next level of quality and custom configuations.
I currently see 2 ways to go about the Ebike kit thing.
1- Do it yourself
2- Pre-built ready to ride.
The Do-it-yourself market is out there, looking at Justin from ebikes.ca selling out of parts is a fine example, he's done great in the past few years, excellent support, good variety of parts, one stop shop with batteries, motors, controllers, etc etc..
And then you have the low-volume, high-price, quality designed setups like Optibike for example. I like this aproach, build less.. but build them right.
If and when the battery thing finally matures into something dependable, easy to use, and safe enough for the masses, i'll be ready.. hopefully. :wink:
knightmb
100 kW
Ypedal said:
Yeah, the big store e-bikes are cheap, but for a reason. The Wal-mart e-bike that I bought for $300 has already burned out it's controller. It only has 232 miles on it. It's already gone through one shifter for the derailer also. My wife rides this e-bike and she really feathers everything from acceleration to shifting. It died yesterday on one of our rides around town. Lucky for her, it was within a few miles of home because pedaling a 80lb bicycle around and up hills is no fun.
So I'm going to junk the controller and probably part off the motor, but all that cheap wal-mart stuff is coming off. Going to put a nice, quiet hub motor on for her.
xyster
10 MW
Would this be your over-volted Currie, out of Currie curiosity?
knightmb
100 kW
xyster said:
Yes and no :lol:
The one day I set it for 24 volts, it burned out. I've run it at 36 volts for quite a while, the controller never gets hot. As it turns out, it wasn't the controller (even though it did melt down). The motor burned out, shorted, and fried the controller. I switch the motor between 36 and 24 volts depending on the weather. The temperature was close to 95 degrees here, so I left the bike in 24 volt mode because with my wife riding, didn't want to strand her and well it was a casual ride, not a race.
We went nearly 10 miles around the city before heading home. So we went wide open throttle (her top speed only being 20 MPH, so it was full throttle for her and like 1/2 throttle for me). As we were coming up a hill, her motor melted and she lost power (even blew the inline fuse, scary).
So, she rode it home manual. I took the bike apart and the first thing I thought was blown controller since I had mod the thing to 36 volts. The controller was bad, but it didn't look like anything really burned out. Just the leads to the motor had melted. So I took the motor apart and well it was bad, really bad. The motor appears to have gotten so hot that wires in the windings melted.
I have been taking the motor apart regularly to check for problems and it did have some ventilation holes drilled to help with the summer heat. But even all that wasn't enough as the 24 volts caused some serious thermal runaway in the motor. Now I admit, it's damn hot outside now. So the motor starting out at 95+ degrees and then us going up and down a lot of hills probably was not the best thing for it. I'm just glad that it wasn't set for 36 volt mode because I'm certain flames would have shot out of that motor
I do take some of the blame, I was running it at 36 volts at times. I'm sure that shorten the life of the motor. But what happened yesterday was kind of scary. After the motor blew, I waited for her to catch up (didn't know what was wrong) Smelled something burning, so I switched the bike off for safety reasons. I thought it was the controller at first because no power lights or anything. I do remember feeling the motor and it was hotter than it has ever been before, too hot to touch, probably enough to cook some eggs, so I knew something was wrong. But she just wanted to get home.
xyster
10 MW
Strange it fried at only 24 volts. You said you ran that thing at 36 volts, balls-to-the-wall for 10 miles or more at a stretch. How hot was it outside those times? Ambient temperature sure seems to make a larger-than-expected difference in motor temperature.
knightmb
100 kW
xyster said:
Yeah, strange, but not surprising since I did put that little motor through a lot.
The outside temperature was 95 and it was Sunny, so it was REALLY hot for cycling. It's not so bad when you are cruising along at 20+ MPH though, heat wise anyway. My wife is one of those that rather the motor do most of the work, so she barely pedals half the time, LOL.
I think it was just a bad combination of running the motor at a higher voltage than rated before this happened, then add in hot sunny day, going up steep hills non-stop riding, so something had to give. It makes me wonder though if I had left it at 24 volts, and no ventilation holes, would the same thing have happened? Does having air going through the motor make things worse for thermal transfer? I mean the inside was "burnt" really bad.
xyster
10 MW
How does overvolting your motor in the past, make it more likely to die the next time? Are you thinking perhaps some of the plastic parts melted a little from the 36v, then the 24v ride in the heat finished them off? Seems like a motor frying is more of a digital did/didn't thing rather than a progressive-damage thing.
Either way, I've been keeping a close eye on my Currie's motors temperature during rides, giving it a rest once it's too hot to comfortably hold my hand on. And I have a spare 36v 30 amp controller from my scooter I can use should the controller blow.
Either way, I've been keeping a close eye on my Currie's motors temperature during rides, giving it a rest once it's too hot to comfortably hold my hand on. And I have a spare 36v 30 amp controller from my scooter I can use should the controller blow.
TylerDurden
100 GW
I believe the rated load for the MY1018 is 13A@24V. At WOT, you might be at 750W... a tad above the motor's rating.
Currie strikes again.
"I luv the smell of windings in the morning..."
Currie strikes again.
"I luv the smell of windings in the morning..."
The usual failure mode is for the insulation on the windings to cook just enough for two adjacent wires to make contact. Once that happens, it's a cascading runaway thermal event. The shorted turn will decrease power output, and at the same time drastically increases power consumption. This causes more heating, more windings to fail. etc., etc....
Commutators and brushes are another common failure point.
On a Zappy motor, the insulation between the windings and the armature iron was made of some stuff that melted easily. The windings would melt through it, then short out on the iron.
I hate it when that happens.
Commutators and brushes are another common failure point.
On a Zappy motor, the insulation between the windings and the armature iron was made of some stuff that melted easily. The windings would melt through it, then short out on the iron.
I hate it when that happens.
xyster
10 MW
In addition to the battery-side fuse, would a fuse on the motor-side protect the controller from frying in such cases?
xyster said:
Possibly. Sometimes when you get a short, the FETs can blow faster than a fuse.
newbie electric rider
100 W
My Lexus get about 21 MPG. High test was $3.19 yesterday when I filled it up. Fuel cost is fifteen cents per mile plus the car, insurance and the rest of it and I don't have to sit on a bike for FOUR THOUSAND miles.
In the meantime I now have about 700 miles on my Crystalyte 5304 with 4 B&B 12V 12 AH batteries and feel confident based on reserve supplies after a ten mile run using my "watts up" meter that I will be able to get at least that many more miles. Using SLA's I'll get 1,500 miles for about $120 worth of batteries or about .08 a mile. Shipping of course will up the cost of those batteries so the cost per mile goes up. Right now though it appears I'm paying at least .08 cents per mile for fuel to ride a bike and .15 cents per mile to ride in my Lexus.
That comparison is a little bit misleading, I think if you factor in the depreciation of the lexus, the cost of insurance, and maintenance,for example, lexus new $50,000, after 3years with 60,000 km $30,000 that is 20,000 dollars, insurance on vehicle 4,500 for said period, then the interest on that could of be returned to you on 50,000 presuming you paid cash on it ( say 5% annually, another 7,500 dollars)
In the meantime I now have about 700 miles on my Crystalyte 5304 with 4 B&B 12V 12 AH batteries and feel confident based on reserve supplies after a ten mile run using my "watts up" meter that I will be able to get at least that many more miles. Using SLA's I'll get 1,500 miles for about $120 worth of batteries or about .08 a mile. Shipping of course will up the cost of those batteries so the cost per mile goes up. Right now though it appears I'm paying at least .08 cents per mile for fuel to ride a bike and .15 cents per mile to ride in my Lexus.
That comparison is a little bit misleading, I think if you factor in the depreciation of the lexus, the cost of insurance, and maintenance,for example, lexus new $50,000, after 3years with 60,000 km $30,000 that is 20,000 dollars, insurance on vehicle 4,500 for said period, then the interest on that could of be returned to you on 50,000 presuming you paid cash on it ( say 5% annually, another 7,500 dollars)
