HK Lipo Bricks - what do I choose and why?

It wouldn't be hard to make a battery tube. All you need is some aluminum or brass tube. Brass can be soldered easily so that may provide some better options since brass and copper fittings that are threaded are really common at your local hardware store. Some thin walled brass tubing of the right ID would be fairly light weight, but would make easy to build battery tubes. You would need to have some strong springs so the cells stay planted end to end firmly. 6+ amps made up by just butted up batteries is asking a lot if the contact isn't really solid.

32650 cells...Obviously this is for a flashlight, but you get the idea. I suppose if you used these batteries you wouldn't need a BMS or a balance charger since they have a management board built in. Just apply the correct voltage to the entire pack and everything gets charged and balanced.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TrustFire-32650-3-7V-6000mAh-Rechargeable-Li-ion-Battery-w-PCB-Protected-Board-/351341613979?hash=item51cd97939b:g:SksAAOSwdS1VA-Xe

Regarding Hobby King...
They pretty much suck when it comes to having accurate listings of their inventory. I purchased 4 zippy 8000mah 6S packs in early December and I'm still waiting for them with no ETA or even a guess of when they will ship to me. Every time I talk to their CS people they tell me they don't know when they will have more in stock and can't be bothered to ask their purchasing agent when they will. When I purchased the packs they showed more than 10 in stock. Then a week later I get an e-mail saying they are out of stock. You could say that I am pretty much 100% pissed at hobby king now and seriously thinking that I will never buy from them again and certainly wont have anything positive to say about them! I haven't purchased very often from them, but the first time I lay down $500 they completely screw it up.
 
Last 'D-cell' sized ebay flashlight cell I ordered was an 18650 pressed into a cardboard tube. Also claimed 6Ah, was a saggy 2.4Ah.

Handle pouch cells like they are humming bird egg delicate until well encased with an evenly supportive structure through the Z axis of the cells alone, not from the edges.

With excellent 18650s available today like the LG HG2 and LG MJ1, using hobby grade pouches should be avoided if your application doesn't require the C-rate. If you are using them, be sure to store them at ~3.7v in a cool place.
 
liveforphysics said:
Last 'D-cell' sized ebay flashlight cell I ordered was an 18650 pressed into a cardboard tube. Also claimed 6Ah, was a saggy 2.4Ah.

Handle pouch cells like they are humming bird egg delicate until well encased with an evenly supportive structure through the Z axis of the cells alone, not from the edges.

With excellent 18650s available today like the LG HG2 and LG MJ1, using hobby grade pouches should be avoided if your application doesn't require the C-rate. If you are using them, be sure to store them at ~3.7v in a cool place.
Click to expand...


LIPO's are not "delicate humming bird eggs". LOL! I work with them all the time. You just want to make sure to NOT bend the solder tabs very much or they will break off. Also, make sure you don't short the cells. I suppose don't be stupid and puncture one, but otherwise, they are not a problem and I strongly suggest those general handling procedures for any battery. So how is that "humming bird egg delicate"?

I agree with you about 18650's on ebay and elsewhere. If they advertise them as more than 2600 or maybe 3100 mah...it is a flat out a lie and a fruadulent. There is no such thing as an 18650 with a higher mah rating than 3100mah. Don't be fooled by all the untrafire fakes advertising 9000mah in an 18650. A 32650 can be 6000mah, but that's the diameter of a D cell and the height of an 18650. And yes watch out for the fake 32650's!!!
 
LH HG2 are 20C discharge 3500mah cells. Pretty impressive in my eyes.
 
ElectricGod said:
liveforphysics said:
Last 'D-cell' sized ebay flashlight cell I ordered was an 18650 pressed into a cardboard tube. Also claimed 6Ah, was a saggy 2.4Ah.

Handle pouch cells like they are humming bird egg delicate until well encased with an evenly supportive structure through the Z axis of the cells alone, not from the edges.

With excellent 18650s available today like the LG HG2 and LG MJ1, using hobby grade pouches should be avoided if your application doesn't require the C-rate. If you are using them, be sure to store them at ~3.7v in a cool place.
Click to expand...


LIPO's are not "delicate humming bird eggs". LOL! I work with them all the time. You just want to make sure to NOT bend the solder tabs very much or they will break off. Also, make sure you don't short the cells. I suppose don't be stupid and puncture one, but otherwise, they are not a problem and I strongly suggest those general handling procedures for any battery. So how is that "humming bird egg delicate"?

I agree with you about 18650's on ebay and elsewhere. If they advertise them as more than 2600 or maybe 3100 mah...it is a flat out a lie and a fruadulent. There is no such thing as an 18650 with a higher mah rating than 3100mah. Don't be fooled by all the untrafire fakes advertising 9000mah in an 18650. A 32650 can be 6000mah, but that's the diameter of a D cell and the height of an 18650. And yes watch out for the fake 32650's!!!
Click to expand...


Hummingbird egg delicate because the higher the c-rate, the less binder material in the coatings on the foils (because the binder isnt conductive). The less binder, the more fragile the coating adhesion and tendency to crack away from the foils. The surfaces at the crack sites cause micro gas bubbles to stream into the pouch.

Handle them as rough as you want to electricdog. Enjoy the outcome of your packs becoming round and puffy in a few months rather than a few years. I had to learn it the hard way myself as well.

Also, Ive personally tested at least 3 different 18650s that achieved >3.4Ah real capacity.

You remind me of myself 10 years ago. A lot of passion and some concepts, but the experience to be offering others advice on anything isnt there.

ATB,
-Luke
 
liveforphysics said:
ElectricGod said:
liveforphysics said:
Last 'D-cell' sized ebay flashlight cell I ordered was an 18650 pressed into a cardboard tube. Also claimed 6Ah, was a saggy 2.4Ah.

Handle pouch cells like they are humming bird egg delicate until well encased with an evenly supportive structure through the Z axis of the cells alone, not from the edges.

With excellent 18650s available today like the LG HG2 and LG MJ1, using hobby grade pouches should be avoided if your application doesn't require the C-rate. If you are using them, be sure to store them at ~3.7v in a cool place.
Click to expand...


LIPO's are not "delicate humming bird eggs". LOL! I work with them all the time. You just want to make sure to NOT bend the solder tabs very much or they will break off. Also, make sure you don't short the cells. I suppose don't be stupid and puncture one, but otherwise, they are not a problem and I strongly suggest those general handling procedures for any battery. So how is that "humming bird egg delicate"?

I agree with you about 18650's on ebay and elsewhere. If they advertise them as more than 2600 or maybe 3100 mah...it is a flat out a lie and a fruadulent. There is no such thing as an 18650 with a higher mah rating than 3100mah. Don't be fooled by all the untrafire fakes advertising 9000mah in an 18650. A 32650 can be 6000mah, but that's the diameter of a D cell and the height of an 18650. And yes watch out for the fake 32650's!!!
Click to expand...


Hummingbird egg delicate because the higher the c-rate, the less binder material in the coatings on the foils (because the binder isnt conductive). The less binder, the more fragile the coating adhesion and tendency to crack away from the foils. The surfaces at the crack sites cause micro gas bubbles to stream into the pouch.

Handle them as rough as you want to electricdog. Enjoy the outcome of your packs becoming round and puffy in a few months rather than a few years. I had to learn it the hard way myself as well.

Also, Ive personally tested at least 3 different 18650s that achieved >3.4Ah real capacity.

You remind me of myself 10 years ago. A lot of passion and some concepts, but the experience to be offering others advice on anything isnt there.

ATB,
-Luke
Click to expand...


Thanks dude...I was probably graduating with an EE degree when you were still in diapers! That is if that's actually your picture.
No one makes an 18650 that''s more than 3100mah. If you have a few that got better than that capacity, well good on ya...but they aren't spec'd that way.

Also...I opened this thread back up to get current opinions on solid lipo packs not to argue with someone half my age. So just keep your inflammatory comments to yourself and we will all get along so much better. There's no need to slur someones online name or to belittle their intelligence.

If you have something constructive that you would like to add then please feel free to add. I was asking a legitimate question why you thought someone should treat lipo's uber carefully. Admittedly I don't throw them around or beat on them. Just treat them like anything else you care about and is expensive and you are fine. When I build packs, I put a layer of craft foam between each cell just to be sure they don't have something grinding the bags together. IS that careful enough? I think it is. And I wrap my packs in more craft foam...just in case. No matter what you do, there's a pretty good chance that you will get a cell or 3 that fails and bloats. My current packs are 12S and there are 4 of them all at 8000mah. They are cheap LIPOs and because I did a good bit of testing up front, I was able to eliminate the bad cells before I closed everything up and wrapped it all in Kapton. I have a single cell that is weak after 9 months of daily use.

Do you have a favorite BMS? I am currently running at 48 volts and soon will be going to 20S or 72 volts...once I have new batteries. My current BMS's were cheap so you know how that goes...you get what you pay for and they don't balance very well. Do you have a preferred LIPO battery pack that has served you well?

Thanks
 
ElectricGod,

I do not think that Lifeforphysics meant to be inflammatory, it is just that he and others who have allot of experience with batteries/e-conversions , have read many posts from people who do not know how to treat hobby lipo's ,

I have talked to hobby RC flyers out at the flying fields, and even experienced people who use lipo's on a regular basis, occasionally or know someone who has had a Lipo pack go into ... Thermal Runaway.

He does not know your experience from all the newbies here, and when it comes to batteries I have allot to learn.myself, I do look forward to hearing about lifeforphysics's experience's , I have seen from his posts he has done allot with electric bikes more than just a year or two of DIY Conversions.


B.T.W.
Anyone who loves dogs knows that God spelled backwards is ... Dog . ElectricGod/ElectricDog, so I would not be insulted by a misspelling of your username.
 
ScooterMan101 said:
ElectricGod,

I do not think that Lifeforphysics meant to be inflammatory, it is just that he and others who have allot of experience with batteries/e-conversions , have read many posts from people who do not know how to treat hobby lipo's ,

I have talked to hobby RC flyers out at the flying fields, and even experienced people who use lipo's on a regular basis, occasionally or know someone who has had a Lipo pack go into ... Thermal Runaway.

He does not know your experience from all the newbies here, and when it comes to batteries I have allot to learn.myself, I do look forward to hearing about lifeforphysics's experience's , I have seen from his posts he has done allot with electric bikes more than just a year or two of DIY Conversions.


B.T.W.
Anyone who loves dogs knows that God spelled backwards is ... Dog . ElectricGod/ElectricDog, so I would not be insulted by a misspelling of your username.
Click to expand...


Perception is reality...LOL. If I seemed snarky and fliapnt to him, then I was snarky and flippant. The same goes for my perceptions of his comments. I got the flip of "god" and "dog" which was specifically why I thought it was a slur. when you call someone a "god" it is generally a high compliment. When you call someone a dog it is usually an insult. Of course there are exceptions like "dogs of war", but even that implies someone is expendable. I basically thought he was being condescending and rude. Anyway...yes he has lots of posts and I don't so at least on here he looks like a "god" and I don't. And yes I just recently signed up so if no one ever asks and just assumes based on your sign-up date and the number of posts, then yes I am a noob. I wonder if he looked at my scooter thread or just assumed I'm nobody?

Regarding LIPO's...I've personally never had a pack go into thermal overload when I am careful and monitor pack temps. It's only when I am running them hard and then don't stop running them hard after they get hot. If you do that, then yes expect a pack now and then to have issues and possibly catch fire. But then that's just common sense. I want my packs to have long and productive lives. Part of that is not letting them get hot for very long. when I built my current 48 volt packs I was seriously considering building an aluminum box that had slots for each cell. The idea was while it was only a 1/16" sliver of aluminum between cells, at least there was some way for heat in the middle of the cells to escape. I decided instead to always keep my packs running around 1 or 2C and heat has never been a problem even in the summer. Whatever air temperature is plus 5 or 10 degrees is all the hotter they ever get. I have ridden at full throttle until the batteries were dead and that's all the hotter they get.
 
Yeah.
You just lectured Luke. You know who he is right?
 
ElectricGod said:
There is no such thing as an 18650 with a higher mah rating than 3100mah. Don't be fooled by all the untrafire fakes advertising 9000mah in an 18650.

Thanks dude...I was probably graduating with an EE degree when you were still in diapers! That is if that's actually your picture.
No one makes an 18650 that''s more than 3100mah.
Click to expand...

There loads of legitimate branded cells up to and over 3400. What year is this ,,, who is the president lol

http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common18650Summary%20UK.html
 
Hahahaha - I missed that too.

I guess the 1.3kwHr of 3500mAh Panasonic 18650GA cells sitting on my bench are an illusion.
 
ooh yeah think you should try the new multistar liHV(because someone has to be first lol). Some are 5-10 percent lighter and might boost your pack voltage by 2v overall.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__84150__MultiStar_LiHV_High_Capacity_6S_10000mAh_Multi_Rotor_Lipo_Pack_EU_Warehouse_.html
 
Samd said:
Hahahaha - I missed that too.

I guess the 1.3kwHr of 3500mAh Panasonic 18650GA cells sitting on my bench are an illusion.
Click to expand...

Really?! Where? I was looking on the panasonic, sanyo and samsung sites just a month ago and the best I saw was 3100mah. Well cool...if they exist. I just haven't seen them. I have no problem with being wrong. I wanted to see what it would take to build myself LION packs, but I was disappointed when I found 3100mah cells. I really wanted lots more capacity without paralleling cells. I know you can do it and LION cells tolerate it pretty well, but I don't like doing it personally. I want to know what each and every cell is doing and to individually balance each one. Anyway to me personally it's a mute point. I want cells with 5000mah or more and that pretty much means LIPO.

Regarding LIHV...
Too bad they are more $$. I would buy them and then run them at like 4.3volts. I wonder if the extra voltage actually translates into more capacity. If you go from 4.35 volts to 4 volts in the same amount of time as a regular LIPO goes from 4.2 volts to 4 volts, then what's the point? I'm conservative about "new" stuff. I've worked in IT environments way too long to be the ready adopter of the latest tech.

Regarding Luke...
No one deserves to be treated with condescension and have their name slurred...especially when you literally know nothing about them. From that perspective, I don't care if Luke is the president or a ditch digger who can barely spell. If he knows lots about EV, then present facts and experience, don't attack me personally. That's just petty and arrogant. Like I said I have no problem being wrong. So if he had presented said facts (without the slurs and character defamation)...well I would have listened. And No I don't know who he is. That really isn't the point anyway.
 
Samd said:
Yeah.
You just lectured Luke. You know who he is right?
Click to expand...

Iggy list made easy...
 
A God is not bothered by choice in label, that domain is for humans who trade their peace for delusions of grandeur. Become fitting of your label and I will use it, until then I will continue to use appropriately suited nomenclature of choice for your own sake.

You're free to do as you please with any type of cells and any arrangements of keystrokes, I couldn't and wouldn't control your actions even if it were possible, because doing things wrong is perhaps the most effective tool for learning.

ATB,
-Luke
 
Dear sir, Luke is admittedly very opinionated, and also outspoken, however...he has posted his successes and failures over the course of many years. As a result? when he says something, the members around here consider what he is suggesting with serious contemplation. Agree or disagree, but you will have to back up your statements with something more than self-proclamations of deep experience in the EE field, before your posted opinions are regarded with a similar level of respect.

Your statement that:
No one makes an 18650 that''s more than 3100mah
Click to expand...

Well...this suggests that anything else you say should be approached with caution, in spite of the self confidence you exude. I am no expert, but here is some information that I found from simply Googling back in July of 2015

https://www.electricbike.com/18650-cells-for-e-bike/

There may be better deals out there, but I would suggest that a company called "Wake and Vape" is a good first stop in shopping for the best and latest prices of the "cells of interest" to the ebike community. http://www.wakeandvape.com/batteries/

I hope that the other members and I will all learn valuable information from a man of your experience, but...your diplomacy skills may limit the population's interest in what you have to contribute. If you can back up your bold statements with meat, I am all ears, but...if you prove to be a man with a thin skin, I shall pop a bag of pop-corn and watch the results with eager anticipation...
 
Fantastic input guys. I really appreciate your opinions about what you think you "know" about me. Keep in mind that they are your opinions about someone that none of you know and that based on virtually no history what so ever and even that based 99% on my sign-up date. Truly lame...IMHO! Lets agree to disagree and drop this. I personally welcome people around me that are smarter than me so I can learn. BUT...I also avoid people who are condescending or arrogant. I do this for the same reason you do...It really sucks when people act that way and just like you hate it when people do that to you...so do I. That was the specific vibe I got from Luke...condescension and arrogance. AND NONE of this has anything to do with what the thread is about. So let's talk about LIPOs instead.

On the subject of LIPOs (LOL!) and facts about LIPOs...
I was thinking about LIPOs last night in terms of the fragility of LIPO packs. I have had and still do have a variety of R/C devices. Right now that's 4 helicopters of various sizes and 2 planes, but in the past it included several cars, trucks, planes, etc. They all ran off of LIPO packs of various sizes. I bought my first 3D heli in 2006 and it saw tons of abuse. I had it a few days and crashed it into the side of my house. I broke tons of parts and spent loads of time putting it back together. When I was done, I took it outside to get back to flying. I didn't know about leveling the swash plate or blade pitch or rather not the practical adjustment aspects of those things on an R/C heli and the consequences of not doing a good job. Anyway, I took off and promptly lost control as the heli careened towards my house at full rotor tilt once more. So once again the heli got rebuilt and this time I spent lots of time reading and rereading about properly adjusting a 3D heli. As I played around with 3D stuff I crashed lots more and some of those crashes were really bad and finally that 3D heli more or less self destructed (with LOTS of help from me flying it into things!!!) and I wanted a better one anyway. The new heli used the same packs as the old one which was a deliberate choice I made. I bought 3 LIPO packs when I got that first 3D heli and after several years of use and abuse, 2 of them finally died. I still have one of those packs and it has never bulged and still is running at about 80% of capacity. My point is those LIPO packs between two 3D helis saw loads of smashing and bashing and crashing and even got over heated a few times before I put battery monitoring on the helis and despite all that abuse still gave me years of use. That to me speaks volumes about how resilient and tough LIPO batteries can be. I can say the same for R/C cars too. I've done some whopper jumps and destroyed a few cars in the process. The batteries suffered the same jarring and shocks that the cars did, but the LIPO packs kept going strong. That to me does not sound very fragile. Considering how LIPO packs are "protected" by a a thin sheet of heat shrink and maybe some thin foam wherever they are secured in the car or other R/C craft, they are astonishingly reliable and resilient. That to me does not sound anything like "eggshell fragile". What I do now with LIPO's in my scooter is mere childs play compared to the constant pounding their brothers and sisters in my R/C stuff may go through. I have had a few R/C packs bloat a cell here and there over the years and I so I keep my packs and rebuild as needed from the remaining good cells into good packs again. It happens, but it's maybe 10% of the time that it happens. LIPOs in my opinion are pretty amazingly tough and good at taking abuse considering they are usually a soft pack. I've never used a LIPO hard case. I have yet to personally see the point since whatever packs I have bought over the years have generally survived so well.

So anyway...back on subject...
What LIPO packs are you currently using?
What kinds of problems are you having (if any)?
What do you suggest AND have experience with that are reliable and solid that are currently made packs?
It would be really great to hear from people who have recently purchased and have 6 months or more of use into their packs.
I intend to drop whatever it takes into decent packs that last, but I also don't want to pay a fortune either.
I value your battery opinions and experiences. (PM me directly about your opinions about me if you care.)

Thanks for your help everyone!!! LETS TALK ABOUT CURRENT LIPO PACKS!!!
 
If you're "ElectricGod" why do you need to ask questions on here? Is it just to test us mere mortals? :lol: :wink:

Sorry I can't help as I'm only on here to ask questions because I'm really a n00b... :oops:
 
Hey Macribs,
you can have your thread back now. :pancake:

What I would recommend doing is making a short spreadsheet showing dollars per watt hour of a few different packs. What you will find is a couple of bricks that are commodity cheap bricks because they sell a lot. Zippy generally give ten percent less than turnigy so build that into your spreadsheet.
Some of these bricks will meet your need for C rate and some won't. So best you settle on that part first and exclude packs that can't do what you want.

Personally I have a bunch of 5s 5ah 20-30c bricks I can connect a bunch of ways for prototyping bikes. These aren't hardcase and I do like using the 'puffyness' of the sides as an indication of their state. Any that start to swell considerably are moved out of the parallel groups. Its handy because I can make a 20s pack or I can make a 15s pack for a controller with 63V caps.

Are you definitely going adappto as that will help you fix the total pack voltage before deciding which motor to buy (not sure if you now have one).

The cost and pain of interconnecting packs then needs considering. Adding in some 10ga wire and a fistful of connectors as well as the time to solder or crimp (and the space to accomodate the wires) is a cost and pain factor. This is why the turnigy multirotor packs have become popular for a lot of applications. Three or four Multistar 6s 20ah packs make a simple sixty amp solution for a medium to high power setup if they fit the space.

I find it hard to beat these (and the corresponding 6s version) for building different packs:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__9174__Turnigy_5000mAh_5S_20C_Lipo_Pack.html

If you parallel lots of packs these make a handy addition - you can get them for 5s, 6s etc.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__27074__JST_XH_Parallel_Balance_Lead_5S_250mm_6xJST_XH_.html
 
I am reading this thread , as I am sure others are, to find out what Hobby Lipo's to get , ( If I finally decide to go with lipo's instead of a 18650 Pack )


Batteries are only one part of the energy system, since we Electric Bicycle/Scooter/Velomoble/etc. riders are, not , out at a flying field , using a car battery to DC-DC charge our batteries.

What :

Are the Chargers that can charge the bigger packs ( 10, 14,16 s two p ) Packs ?
Big enough to charge in an hour or two .

and
Do we have to settle with unplugging the packs and plugging each pack into the charger ?
2 or 3 packs or for more amperage 4 or 6 packs.
if so it looks like we need a charger that can charge up to 6 / 8 packs at a time ?
Any other 7 s lipo packs made by anyone else ?

Is there a charger that can just plug into the whole pack like on the pre-made 18650 packs that are available commercially ?
Any newer charger that is AC that can do this ? ( the power supplies on HK do not have good reviews )

From people's responses I am seeing that more people in favor of the Turnigy Brand,
However I like the fact that Zippy does offer a 7s pack, so I can then only have to deal with two for a 5800mAh pack , or , 4 if I wanted 11 amp hour pack
 
A 14s pack can easily be made from 5s, 5s and 4s in series.

It can be balance charged about once a month.

And it can be bulk charged using three old laptop chargers at 19.5v each. That's 4.17v per cell.
 
E'god...we were all new to the site once, and all learn more as we go, no matter what pure base level of experience.
..But, would you walk into a strange bar in a different town , and claim to be the hardest drinker/toughest fighter in the room ?..
Basically , you have done the forum equivalent, talking the talk, but then come up short in the "walk in the walk" part .!
Advice to all new members is to spend time using the search functions to check for previous answers to any questions you have or to seek info on topics you are not familiar with.
That way you learn without having to wait for others to answer, you avoid asking previously answered questions, and possibly prevent yourself making embarrassing statements that undermine your image , ......or buying the wrong products for your project.! :wink:
None of us are perfect or God like, we all have our strengths, weaknesses, experience, faults, knowledge, etc.
Some contributors earn respect, some get barred ( not many tho) , most of us just appreciate the depth of information and experience available here, and learn who to pay attention to, and who to ignore.
You determine where you want to fit in that, but at the moment I detect many of the "barroom regulars" are content to be amused by the new boy in town.
 
Gotta admit. Still chuckling that of all the users here, he tried to lecture LFP on batteries.
Then went for the butthurt move on the fallout.
 
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