HOW CAN E-BIKES PROLIFERATE

I've worked at bike shops, and have a few insights about the different types of cyclists out there, and which are currently attracted to E-bikes, and which types have the potential to be interested in E-bikes.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/oct/24/bike-snobs-guide-cycling-tribes
Most bike shops are owned and operated by "serious cyclists", usually from the road racing or MTB background. Typically, they want their bikes as light, simple and efficient as possible. "Contraption captain" cyclists, the types that ride recumbents, MTB's with gigantic seats and two sets of handlebars with all sorts of barends sticking out everywhere, are inherently at odds with "serious" racing types. When you add motors, rat's nest of wires, gigantor batteries bungied all over, it just offends their delicate sensibilities of what the simplest machine, the light, efficient bicycle should look like. Also, fit roadies who have invested years into developing their speed and endurance, get butt hurt when some 300lb dooder in sweatpants on a walmart mtb with 1000wt hub motor and huge battery zip-tied to their wonky rack blows by them like they are standing still.

So, acceptance by bike shops is one factor.
The problem with working on E-bikes for most bikes shops is several:
-most shops see a broken E-bike every few months. Not dozens a week, like traditional bikes. Replacement parts, batteries, controllers, motors are not currently available through normal bike shop distributors. Is there some U.S. based E-bike part distributor that I am not aware of? Without a relatively easy means to get replacement parts, that the shops ccan mark up for profit, there is NO incentive for bike shops to learn to fix e bikes.
-Most bike mechanics don't have any experience with electric stuff. Multimeter and soldering iron not typically found in shop tool inventory. I don't think E-bikes are really much more involved that troubleshooting car battery/alternator issues, but regardless.
-Many of the existing popular E-bikes and kits distributed through shops, are not easy to deal with as a shop for troubleshooting. I.E. Bionix is based in Quebec, most of their techs speak french, hours and shipping are hassle, they want you to send parts back for repair, instead of selling shops tools or replacement parts.

The main types of E-bike customers I would deal with:
-contraption captain types: these customers like to do things their own way. Their bike is "perfect" for them, but you could NEVER sell that bike to another person... They tend to have their own ideas, be pretty stubborn, not too open to suggestion and advice for experienced mechanics. This is frustrating for the mech. Also, the contraption captain bike tends to be 60-80-100lbs, and not have any good place to clamp in a bike work stand. Usually there is a bunch of crap bolted/ziptied/duct taped all over it, that makes it tough to access/work on gears, brakes, etc. These bikes are more annoying to work on for a mech than normal bikes. They also take up a ton of room in the back, difficult to hang up.

-People that can't get a driver's license for whatever reason; dui, seizures, learning disability, etc. They will use bike as main form of transportation.

-Old people that have a beach crusier or trike with basic kit for put-putting them around.

I have seen growing interest among the "Righteous Cyclist", "urban cyclist" and "Beautiful godzilla" tribes...
I feel like most of these customers:
-are not neccessarily terribly mechanical or DIY. For instance, most bike riders, buy a complete bike. The hardcores build up from frame, but 98% buy a whole working bike. Many, many people bring their bikes in for simple fixes, like fixing flat tires, adjusting brakes, etc. Most customers don't care HOW it works, they just want it to work, and want there to be someone nearby who can fix it if it breaks down. Think how many people use computers and cars, with no idea how to change the oil, or what goes on inside the box. SOOOO many people ask about the Copenhagen wheel. That's e-bike kit #1 that urban cyclist/beautiful godzilla/righteous cyclists ask about. Bionix would be #2...

-Many of these people want a bike that is light, easy to carry up/down stairs, efficient to pedal, works well as normal bike, has clean lines and looks good.

-Cost. Many people who use bikes to get to work or school spend <$1000 on their bike. $200-300 into decent used bike. $400 new hybrid, $600 hybrid with discs. $1200 for a surly or soma or something "serious".

I think an E-bike shop that stocked commercial complete E-bikes, as well as conversion kits, set up on a couple of different bikes, and had a repair shop with replacement batteries/parts etc would do well, and be vital for E-bikes reaching larger amount of customers.
For example,
-hybrid/townie bikes set up with 36v gear hub motor kit with 10ah li-ion water bottle battery. Under 40 lbs, under $1000, rides like normal bike, gives you a boost to 18mph, about 10-15 mile range, not that awesome for hills. But pretty ideal for old lady to cruise around the lake or her retirement home. Or for commuter that has shorter trips, not trying to go 30mph, but wants to get to work less sweaty, a boost when there's a headwind or they have groceries in the panniers

-MTB with discs, 1000wt dd hub motor kit with 48v 15-20ah li-ion. More like 60 lbs, fair amount of drag when you pedal, more like $1200-1400, gets you up to 25-30mph, 20-25 mile range, still not awesome for hills. For the customer that wants electric moped type experience, or has 10-15 mile commute and they want to get there quick.

-Hybrid with discs, bafang middrive kit, 48v 15-20ah. More like 50 lbs, no drag when you pedal, climbs hills and goes fast, more like $1500.

And then some complete Bosch, Currie middrives for $3000+

I feel like if you had 10 e-bikes on the floor, of a few types and price ranges, that people could try, they'd sell.
 
Shadetree, your last example of a shop resembles Myron's Extreme Machines in Fullerton, CA. A passionate, astute owner who has been in the business for many years and encourages his customers to test ride the bikes; oh yeah, sells and will install kits too. By his admission, the biggest e-bike shop in CA.

Also Porteur has a bike that clicks the boxes for $2250; could be sold for less if the quantities were much higher.
 
OK, I'd never heard of "Beautiful Godzillas" before so I Googled..

:mrgreen:

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/oct/24/bike-snobs-guide-cycling-tribes

The Beautiful Godzilla
The Beautiful Godzilla is a particular kind of urban female cyclist who rides as though the rest of the world were created simply to yield to her. She's generally young, good-looking and clad in expensive clothes. She also rides an old three-speed or perhaps a 10-speed or Dutch city bike, carries her handbag on the edge of her handlebars and if she has a basket it usually contains a small dog or perhaps a baguette. She's on her mobile phone at all times and her approach to cycling in a densely populated city is a combination of self-entitlement and Mr Magoo-type dumb luck. Like any self-entitled person, she can't imagine a car would possibly hit her, even if she's riding against traffic and it's coming right at her. Actually, you sort of find yourself disappointed when it doesn't. And just like Mr Magoo would wander into a construction site and a girder would materialise right as he was about to walk off the scaffolding, the Beautiful Godzilla blithely rides through red lights and busy intersections, emerging on the other side unscathed and just as photogenic as she was when she entered it.

Why other cyclists don't like them: They should be dead but aren't.

Compatibility with other cyclists: Will accept deliveries from Messengers; will develop crushes on Messengers.

Oh yeah, I agree pretty much with your post too.
 
Warren said:
What is "wrong" with it is that it doesn't address our existential problems...

Not a problem, the original question had nothing to do with getting in touch with one's inner existentialist. In fact, it's been the obsession of some to try to use them to trap others into into it for the gratification of it that stands in the way, so one way is to ensure that no 'Existential problems' are inflicted on anyone when they come in contact with the bikes. The Marquis de Sade need not open a store.

What's scary about WalMart is the likelyhood of unreliable bikes, regardless of if there's anyone to fix them. Do you want a car that keeps going to the shop under warranty? Most people don't want to deal with the lithium batteries, but they don't want to keep replacing the SLA's. Most people just aren't ready; anything that 'Tricks' or 'Forces' them into one will only create setbacks.

The best thing you can do is keep building your own, be a help to others willing to do the same, just be nonthreatening about the whole thing, leaving the world to believe that NO ONE is trying to menace them with eBikes. Although we all know a few people who really are, right?

Oh, and take a whole new outlook on existentialism: "I think, therefore I'm not a jerk to people about eBikes." Thus changing the image from this:

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To this:

pretty_girl_gets_off_her_bike_and_shows_us_her_young_body-1.jpg
pretty_girl_gets_off_her_bike_and_shows_us_her_young_body-7.jpg


Oh, it'll be good to find the suitable up and coming young actresses to enter the world naked bike ride. Maybe Team PETA would use the slogan "I'd rather go eBiking naked than wear fur."



.
 
Personally I'd start by not ticking off a portion of my potential fellow ebikers with poorly considered political and sexual innuendo. To half the population that stuff comes across as either ridiculously manipulative or just eye rollingly ridiculous.

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Maddie and Tae say it a lot better and far funnier than I can.

[youtube]_MOavH-Eivw[/youtube]

There are more positive role models for ebikes, Shelina Moreda rode for Mission Motors.

http://www.womenfitness.net/shelinaMoreda_beautifulRacer.htm

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Shelina-Moreda1.jpg


[youtube]i6WYqjMdIMc[/youtube]

I mean I like Grace Potter and Beth Hart as performers in part because they are sexy as hell but first they can by God perform.
 
Not trying to sell here, but some of you might be interested to know this.

E-Bikekit kits are provided to any bike shop with an account, by one of the biggest bike parts wholesalers out there, J&B. Parts are a problem, but our parts a bike shop can get easily. There's now 300 bike shops out there in the USA that have bought and installed the E-Bike kit. Most will do it again anytime a guy walks in and says, I want to electrify my bike.

So that's how you penetrate the bike shop wholesale market. You have the parts when they need them, they get em quick, they deal with a company they've been buying from for decades, you have the customer service.

Lots of people love the kit, they just don't want to deal with installing it themselves, or having no idea where to go if there is a problem. But for sure, the bikes I saw at interbike this year will have huge appeal. Many have batteries that just look like part of the frame, and little or no exposed wiring. They come with the high appeal brand names on them they know they can sell. The lycra clad shop owners were riding them with big fat grins on their faces.

The kits are going to have to do some serious keeping up soon. But one thing will help, the ability to motorize a trusty bike the customer has loved for a long time.

The market as a whole, it's going to remain mostly people who just love a bike. Those guys who have the leaf and the panels will not electrify till they have a knee go bad though.
 
How do pictures of women in demeaning poses help sell your product to women? You remember women: 1/2 of the worlds population.....?

What a great idea for marketing! Let's introduce our product in 2016 by degrading and creeping out 1/2 of our potential customer base by trying to appeal to sexually frustrated teenaged boys in our advertising. Yeah, that's a brilliant idea!!!

If adults in 2016 seriously think a promotional campaign based upon girlie pictures and bike babes will sell electric bicycles, well that shows just how out of touch some people can be...... Unless of course, you think 13 to 15 year old boys can afford your products and are your primary market, in that case go for it! :lol:
 
Warren said:
What is "wrong" with it is that it doesn't address our existential problems...over population and over consumption. This is not a moral failing, but a logical one. I am not going to convince anyone of this, if the great mass of science and data accumulated over the last 200 years hasn't.

Don't be ridiculous, doing the right thing for the wrong reason does indeed address our existential problems. That's the doing the right thing part........ Are you saying that one has to think the same as you to have ones "right thing" have any effect due to it being done for the "wrong reasons"? A million people switching to EVs because they like the acceleration, but don't care a bit about greenhouse gasses, is ineffective because of their state of mind when they bought them?

Let me guess: you lie awake at night worrying that someone, somewhere, might be having fun, when they should be lying awake at night worrying? :?
 
I will give an example. Scientists say we have until 2050 to get our CO2 emissions to essentially zero. Building a gigafactory and producing 10 million electric SUVs may feel like you are addressing that goal, when in reality it is a complete waste of our very short window of opportunity.

Do I think we have any chance of getting people to actually make the pretty unpleasant sacrifices that would be needed? Not a chance. But telling ourselves that we are "making a difference" is self-delusion, and smacks of religion.
 
This may fit into this discussion somehow. I know lots/most people hate to pedal. For me that is the only thing that makes bicycling less boring than all other forms of transportation. Many also find steering, especially at high speeds, entertaining. But I think most find even that gets in the way of texting. So maybe this is the perfect electric bike/trike/velo.

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/01/08/mit-persuasive-electric-vehicle/#slide-endcap
 
There's never going to be a shortage of people who see something new as an opportunity to oppress and seize power. They're already raging about it in this thread. Others are evil, so they're entitled to torture THEIR personal agenda onto others. Let's look at a way of introducing the sort of 'Dark Age of eBikes' that will please them so much.

Hillarybike said:
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Clinton Unveils Plans for 'Hillarybike'


As part of her last gasp effort to overtake Donald Trump and become president this time, Hillary Clinton has unveiled the sort of unconstitutional unilateral action that appeals to the 30% of Democrats that still support her. Using Obamacare as a model, Hillarybike is to be opposed by 70% of the American people, but rammed down their throats anayway. Among the highlights of Hillarybike:

High quality eBikes will be banned. As with healthcare, all existing eBikes that work in a satisfactory or better manner will be taken from their owners, who will be forced to buy an inferior, yet higher priced, replacement that cannot function in a satisfactory manner. The public will betold that they can keep their existing eBike up until the law is actually passed, then the jack booted thugs will be sent to round up their bikes.

Taxes will be raised.

The government will provide a website where taxpayers cannot successfully order poor quality eBikes.

Americans will be fined.

Both businesses and private parties will be punished for their success.

All eBikes will be required to use the same batteries that have made Hoverboards such a burning issue.

All this new money the government is collecting will not be spent on eBikes, but on whatever reckless spending the government wants to spend it on.

Clinton hopes that using the same self serving, tone deaf tyranny as caused the failure of Obamacare will help her to foist even the most illadvised mess on an undeserving America and asks for your support in ramrodding Hillarybike through by hating anyone who opposes it. And of course, complain-complaincomplain! This includes using any excuse to act selfrighteous and self satisfied. As Clinton supporters are largely on their own whether married or not, such as Clinton herself, the self satisfied part is expected to come easy to them.

Clinton also asks that you focus the same sort of hate on those who keep asking about her past. . . .

Hillarybike.jpg

On the other hand, if we could PREVENT the creeps, the evil mongers, the all around sadists who look for any opportunity to torture others and blather distorted rhetoric from getting a piece of the action for themselves, there's some hope eBikes could succeed once these bad guys fail to kill them. . . . .
 
Nice one lol, and good points imo. Why am I wanting to picture her naked now though?
Dammitt dauntless. Look for that quote from 'Mark Twain' about voting.

Obvious to me, the single biggest thing holding ev's back are the batteries.
I do hope as they progress they will not only become safer, cheaper, and more energy efficient, but also stop trending towards increased (potential?) environmental damage over lead acid.

Sure, you can't drink lead acid, but why do I get the impression that their simpler makeup/design is far more recycleable, and not quite the same level of toxicity as lithium to leak or burn/ generally dispose of and also to probably produce?
 
Jonathan in Hiram said:
Personally I'd start by not ticking off a portion of my potential fellow ebikers with poorly considered. . .

. . . .Arguments like the one you're making. http://www.adweek.com/adfreak/carls-jr-makes-most-absurdly-american-ad-its-hot-dog-and-chips-cheeseburger-165053

WoodlandHills said:
What a great idea for marketing! Let's introduce our product in 2016 by degrading and creeping out 1/2 of our potential customer base by trying to appeal to sexually frustrated teenaged boys in our advertising. Yeah, that's a brilliant idea!!!

Yeah, the people handing out all those awards to the Carl's Jr. ad campaign sure thought so. Sure has been great for business, too. Um, which half of the population doesn't eat at Carl's, you were saying . . . ?

End of subject, case closed. And with yet another tired, cliche ridden rhetorically failed argument removed from reality, the world takes one step closer to being safe for eBikes as a safe, playful thing and not a Nazi weapon. If you remove the feet, there'll be room for a Tex Mex Bacon Thickburger.

https://www.youtube.com/user/CarlsJr

[youtube]45boXIgXFUQ[/youtube]

[youtube]1krJqn3smbI[/youtube]

 
Warren said:
What is "wrong" with it is that it doesn't address our existential problems...over population and over consumption. This is not a moral failing, but a logical one. I am not going to convince anyone of this, if the great mass of science and data accumulated over the last 200 years hasn't.
.

Amen to that. There's no buying or manufacturing our way out of a mess we made by excessive buying and manufacturing. And the American status quo is charging full speed over the cliff's edge with the rest of the world in the back of its SUV.

Woodlandhills:

Also, driving it like you stole it equals driving like a jackass. If you doubt, be in the bike lane when somebody else is doing it. If you have a kid, let your kid be in the street when someone else is driving "like they stole it". It might get through to you.

A Walmart e-bike will always be a huge letdown, like every other kind of bike they've ever sold. There are just more things to be wrong with it. See: EZip Trailz. Do you have one? Do you want to?

Department stores have sold more bikes than anybody else-- and in the process, they have convinced millions and millions of people that cycling is bullshit. All those folks don't know it, but what they really learned is that riding a department store bike is bullshit. Don't wish that on e-bikes.
 
Really? Acellerating to the speed limit faster than you would like me to makes me a jackass? Perhaps your driving skills render you unable to control a car at those speeds and rates of change, but I can assure that I have no difficulty. As far as having kids and carbon debts, my contribution towards our Brave New World was to decide on the very first Earth Day in 1970 to not ever have children and to never buy a new car. And so far I have kept my word, although at 62, there still time for both...... :lol:
 
Dauntless, is anyone disagreeing that sex doesn't sell?
Imo the point is it's designed to cultivate and play on negative emotion such as lust.

Chalo, walmart is an easy target, but imo anything corporate is the real issue.
It's just a conscienceless entity with only one real goal- to make money.

Imo speed limits are not a big issue to discuss, but rather to strive for greater personal responsibility and accountability, with a balanced reduction in the prosecution of victimless crimes including traffic restrictions/statutes.
 
WoodlandHills said:
Really? Acellerating to the speed limit faster than you would like me to makes me a jackass?

Yep. Get on your bike and see for yourself. (You're not alone, unfortunately.)
 
nutspecial said:
Dauntless, is anyone disagreeing that sex doesn't sell?

Um, yes. In this thread, in fact. Yeah, that's why you only see women eating Carl's Jr. when they're getting paid to eat it and they don't look like they'd EVER eat it.

Imo the point is it's designed to cultivate and play on negative emotion such as lust.

Advertising? Yeah. That's what they taught me in school.

Chalo said:
There's no buying or manufacturing our way out of a mess we made by excessive buying and manufacturing. And the American status quo is charging full speed over the cliff's edge with the rest of the world in the back of its SUV.

But they'll pass the law requiring it. People will whine when it doesn't work. The experts will speak of new factories. They will insist that, somehow, there must be a way of speeding over the cliff and manufacturing the solution because only THAT existentially addresses the problem the way they want it addressed.
 
I figured out about six months into my first stable relationship back when the PCV valve was the latest in pollution control technology that the guys who hollered, drooled and hooted at every In and Out, McDonalds or Burger King we drove by weren't getting any good home cooking if you catch my drift. You wouldn't believe it to look at me but my youngest granddaughter is Cowboys Cheeleader good looking and deals with this shit all the time, she's also a math geek with off the charts mechanical aptitude too but I'd never send her to ES to learn about ebikes not because anything here would remotely shock her but because she might think less of me after she got done rolling her eyes at some of the immaturity.

Lots of women loathe beautiful women, not necessarily personally but more because of the way they make men act. Women watch us make fools of ourselves around only passably attractive women and go completely Alley Oop over really good looking ones like my granddaughter and they roll their eyes and exchange knowing looks. She's been places like a restaurant or or store with me before and some of the looks I get would leave me a smoking pile of ashes if they could, I have a hard time keeping a straight face. :mrgreen:

I don't think men can help the way they are wired, I respond to this stupid manipulative shit too if I let myself but I don't have to let myself do it in inappropriate settings and I always try to remember I'm being manipulated. I don't like or trust people who try to manipulate me.

Also I'm watching another forum I'm on get blown apart by politics this year and it's not a wise subject to bring up in a divisive fashion on a technical board. Opinions differ and none of the argumentative souls here are going to persuade any of the others of anything political.

Girl_in_Country_Song_.png
 
Sure you can sell crappy products to stupid easily manipulated people with sex. Hell you can get guys to pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars for nothing more substantial than a case of raging blue balls.

You want Brawndo, it has electrolytes.


[youtube]-Vw2CrY9Igs[/youtube]
 
Warren said:
WoodlandHills,

" I drive an electric car (i3)"
"never buy a new car. And so far I have kept my word"

Wait. Now I'm confused.

It's a lease and it was registered to the dealer as a service loaner for several months before I got it. That makes it a used car and I did not buy it either....... I did get a smoking deal on BMWs fastest acellerating car up to 40mph, faster than any of the M-cars 8) and since it is so cheap to drive I use the power as much as I can. Lots of freeways and on-ramps here and lots of places to romp on it as you merge into 75mph traffic from a stop! Isn't that why they put those meters at the ramps: so you can line up side-by-side and wait for the light to turn green? BTW if your kid or your bicycle is on the freeway or the on-ramps I think you are lost.......
 
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