How much solar power could buy for $2,000?

auraslip

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I'm just curious because one of my friends is a member of Rising Tide, a group who wants to get America off of fossil fuels by any means necessary. Anyways he went to washington DC and got arrested at a sit in. So I'm thinking, $1000 for the travel, boarding, and food. $1000-$2000 for bail, fines, and court fees.

For an organization trying to get us off of coal, wouldn't it be more effective to spend that money on solar power? As it is, the D.C. justice dept. are looking at 21 people EACH paying them a lot of cash. They just gave like $20,000 to the institutions they're protesting against. Silly.
 
auraslip said:
[...] $1000 for the travel, boarding, and food. $1000-$2000 for bail, fines, and court fees.

For an organization trying to get us off of coal, wouldn't it be more effective to spend that money on solar power?

I don't think it's a strong argument to say they should spend it on solar panels. As much as I disagree with most of those protesters and environmentalists, their media attention may be worth more than 2 grand if it changes people's minds enough.

As always I believe in technology coming to the rescue for virtually every problem we face. For the environment I think the electric revolution combined with capitalism will take care of any issues. No need to splash money against the wall like the painful carbon tax we've been lumped with here in australia (most energy bills have gone up 50%, no exaggeration).
 
If they had spent $20k on solar panels instead they would barely/maybe take one house off the grid. That's not a very big dent in the grand scheme of things. :|
 
REdiculous said:
If they had spent $20k on solar panels instead they would barely/maybe take one house off the grid. That's not a very big dent in the grand scheme of things. :|


As long as people are convinced that every day, they must consume all the power that a $20K solar system can put out in order to survive, we are in trouble.

I run a machine shop from a $6K array and it would have enough left over juice to run the house too if the house was a more efficient design. Mainly the old furnace blower and fridge need replaced. Our electric bill is around $30 a month with the current 1970's technology. I'm sure we could run the whole house from a 200 watt system and will get one as soon as the budget allows.

I lived in an old army truck with an expandable cabin on the back for a couple of years and my electricity needs were met by one 15 watt panel, a car battery, a 400 watt inverter, and rechargeable AAA's for lighting. I could use the laptop, play guitar, read books, listen to music, keep a little 12v cooler cold, pump water.... If it was cloudy for a few days, I'd bring my storage battery with me on the drive to work, plugged into the cigarette lighter and it would be all charged up for use that night. I rented a beautiful spot in the mountains by the river for $100/month. I had a wood stove, hauled water in and waste out, got lots of barter veggies/meat from local farmers. My total monthly expenses were $400 and that was mostly insurance and gas so I could get to work.....basically just to be able to pay to get to work and cover the lot rent. If I had a free place to park it where I could set up a garden, I probably could have lived high on the hog for $400/year. The average American probably spends $400 a WEEK on garbage they don't really need and power they waste. This is the root of the problem and no protest is going to change it. Everyone else wants to be like us too!

It needs to become highly unfashionable to be a wasteful consumer. The people spending the money dictate what happens in the world and as long as it looks "cool" to consume mindlessly, people will continue to do it.
 
I calculated that i would need about $1000 worth of solar panels, batteries, and charging equipment to keep my ebike / laptop & maybe some other small doodads charged.

The batteries are half the equation and that cost involves a ton of lead acid ... :(

It would take government subsidy at this point to make it pay off for me and i do not think it's fair to accept a subsidy so i can offset *my* emissions.
 
As long as TV's keep getting bigger and bigger, I won't hold my breath waiting for americans to use less electricity. Also, you can forget anybody wanting to go back to no AC.

But every bit helps. It would be nice if enough people protested to make some solar, wind, or whatever mandatory when they build a trophy house. In other words, you gonna build a 3 million dollar house, then you are required to install 30,000 dollars worth of green energy of some kind. Heating the house with solar heated floor radiant heaters would be a great start for those energy hog houses.
 
dogman said:
As long as TV's keep getting bigger and bigger, I won't hold my breath waiting for americans to use less electricity. Also, you can forget anybody wanting to go back to no AC.

But every bit helps. It would be nice if enough people protested to make some solar, wind, or whatever mandatory when they build a trophy house. In other words, you gonna build a 3 million dollar house, then you are required to install 30,000 dollars worth of green energy of some kind. Heating the house with solar heated floor radiant heaters would be a great start for those energy hog houses.

What's a TV??? AC??? :lol:
If you have time to watch much TV with what's going on in the world, you are either under-motivated or overpaid. If your house is hot in the summer, it means you need to plant some shade trees and open a window. If you have to have AC to survive, people probably shouldn't live where you live.....Worst case scenario, if you're trapped in the desert for some reason, build underground. This stuff isn't rocket science.


Google Mountain Village in Telluride, CO?

There are literally hundreds of multi million dollar homes that are climate controlled all year long and get used two or three times a year for a week or two. It's obscene.

I think a time is coming where people are going to have to start justifying their excess or toning it down a bit.
 
mdd0127 for president!

Governments and administrations are full of people yakking about problems and solutions none of them have any hands on experience with.

A recent graduate from our school came back and gave a talk about how he built a net-zero home. That is a home that on average generates all the energy needed. Turns out much can be improved for no or little money over current construction practices.

Example:
1. Consider window orientation and thermal mass location for optimal passive heating in winter (and shading in summer). Usually no additional material cost, just proper calculations and planning.
2. Added insulation and weather proofing over current standards. His cost was $20,000 more on a $500,000 construction cost.

These two changes lowered the annual energy usage by 10 times. YES A WHOPPING 10 times REDUCTION for a measly 4% extra construction cost. This has a less than a year payback on utilities!

Then he went overboard and spend another $50,000 on solar heating and PV. That has a considerably longer payback. (It would have been cheap to buy the remaining 1/10 energy requirement at today's natural gas and electricity prices.)


mdd0127 said:
dogman said:
As long as TV's keep getting bigger and bigger, I won't hold my breath waiting for americans to use less electricity. Also, you can forget anybody wanting to go back to no AC.

But every bit helps. It would be nice if enough people protested to make some solar, wind, or whatever mandatory when they build a trophy house. In other words, you gonna build a 3 million dollar house, then you are required to install 30,000 dollars worth of green energy of some kind. Heating the house with solar heated floor radiant heaters would be a great start for those energy hog houses.

What's a TV??? AC??? :lol:
If you have time to watch much TV with what's going on in the world, you are either under-motivated or overpaid. If your house is hot in the summer, it means you need to plant some shade trees and open a window. If you have to have AC to survive, people probably shouldn't live where you live.....Worst case scenario, if you're trapped in the desert for some reason, build underground. This stuff isn't rocket science.


Google Mountain Village in Telluride, CO?

There are literally hundreds of multi million dollar homes that are climate controlled all year long and get used two or three times a year for a week or two. It's obscene.

I think a time is coming where people are going to have to start justifying their excess or toning it down a bit.
 
I lived in an old army truck with an expandable cabin on the back for a couple of years and my electricity needs were met by one 15 watt panel, a car battery, a 400 watt inverter, and rechargeable AAA's for lighting

That's pretty freakin' cool! but my family couldn't live off a 400w inverter. In no real order...

No water. No hot water. No septic. No toaster, microwave, stove/range, garbage disposal, dish washer, washer/dryer, refrigerator, coffee maker, vacuum and no backup heater (in case we run out of wood).

The average American probably spends $400 a WEEK on garbage they don't really need and power they waste.

I highly doubt that!..

$400 a week is roughly $20,800 a year. In 50 years you'd have wasted over a million dollars. :lol:
 
Gosh.... my parents and brothers live in a texas Mcmansion.... $800 a month for electricity in the summer.
Not to mention the each have a car....
I could see the $400 a week of energy and stuff they don't need....
 
To put it in perspective...in 2004, the median income of an American male was $30,513 and for an American female it was $17,629.

An average guy would have about $10k left after wasting $400/mo and the average female would be in debt about $3k. :lol:
 
Enough to go off-grid ???
My current estimates for DIY PV
some items are delivered within USA, some are in store only

$142 - 52 Mono 6x6 Solar Cells 3.8w-4w - 197 watts

$150 - 12V 25000mAh battery (3s5p)

$10 - 5x battery monitors

$55 - 400 - 800 WATTS 12V DC TO 115V AC POWER

$162 / 2x 0.62709552 m2 <6.75 feet squared> panels - 81' aluminium angle for panel frame $2 per foot

$668 - bottom sheet - 4X 48 in. x 96 in. Polycarbonate Sheet

$600 - top sheet thin film (96% light transparency)

$10 - aluminum rivets


$1797 usd

The bottom sheet and top sheet can be sourced for alot less.
 
Nice try but that's a fail...

A 400-800w inverter won't even make toast. If it can't make toast it isn't going to run the fridge. You need to think in terms of peak demand when suggesting/buying an inverter. A 2kw inverter is a place to start but I think 4-6kw would be more realistic. Obviously it changes somewhat if you have propane/NG appliances but even still, you might wanna be able to make coffee and toast at the same time.

197w over a sunny 10 hours would produce about the same amount of energy that my house uses in an hour. Need more panels and more sunny hours each day. Damn the sun for setting every evening!

Also, a 12v battery needs to dump roughly 70-80amps to provide 1kw..terrible. 48v preferred, 24v minimum.

edit; Make sure to source a pure sine wave inverter since some things simply don't run (or run poorly) on a modified sine wave. :wink:
 
Wow.

I live with my girlfriend in a medium size 1 bedroom apartment here in the Portland area. Our highest electricity bill was $95. It will level down to about $40 a month when the weather improves.

Energy is about 12 cents a kWh after all taxes, etc. if i remember correctly.

We keep the house at about 70 degrees and use AC for a few weeks out of the year.
Lights are on for like 10 hours a day.. ( bad window placement here )
We watch TV and compute on laptops so those barely use any juice..

I just don't understand how you could use more energy.. i guess a McMansion is pretty inefficient..
 
REdiculous Nice try but that's a fail...

I see the thread subject line is "How much solar power could buy for $2,000?" (what is it your reading ? something far different as I understand it now) thats what I set out to show.. How much of a change is needed to work with $2000..
obviously not many people can do it, especially if toast has to be made!
 
I thought you were suggesting that you could go off-grid with the items you listed...sorry if that wasn't what you were saying. I suppose you could go off-grid using the stuff you listed if all your major appliances were propane/NG and you had city water/sewer but you could still easily max the inverter if you weren't careful. Yeah, toast is out and you can't vacuum the floor unless you've got a little dustbuster. :lol:

The highest our electric bill has ever been was $120 and it averages around $75. That's with 4-6 people in the house. We're on a well so we tend to use a little more electricity than city folk. No AC in the summer but we do have an electric furnace in case we run out of wood in the winter. We used 33kWh/day in March this year compared to 55kWh/day in March of last year so we're doing better. :)
 
myzter said:
REdiculous Nice try but that's a fail...

I see the thread subject line is "How much solar power could buy for $2,000?" (what is it your reading ? something far different as I understand it now) thats what I set out to show.. How much of a change is needed to work with $2000..
obviously not many people can do it, especially if toast has to be made!

The thread has been wavering from environmental activism to toast...

Yet the title is concrete enough: How much solar can one get for $2000? And what use can it be put to?

Like myzter demonstrated, one could build a 200W PV system giving approximately 1kWh/day. It would be inexpensive to upgrade just the inverter for high peak loads such as a microwave or toaster. I bought a 1kW RV style inverter for $80, and there are also 2 and 3 kW ones. The inexpensive inverters tend to be 12V for car, boat and RV use, so going higher than 2or 3kW would be unpractical (over 300A from batteries.).

Having such a system could be handy during power outages. Easier to maintain than a Diesel generator, though less powerful. Also, I would not be surptised if during a major outage it would be difficult to resupply Diesel.

If grid connect inverters would be cheap it would also be nice to wire into the house circuits.

Another eco-friendly use for $2000 would be a solar water heating system.

In my book either spending the 2 grand on bail for non-violent eco protest like the guys in the first post or buying solar power systems are fine. Both are surely better than mindlessly just paying 2 grand and more every year for gas and electric utilities like most everyone.
 
When i was a kid, our house only had 12v electric (from a bunch of glass battery cells) for lighting..thats all !
I still ate toast (from bread baked in our oven) and drank hot tea ( didnt like coffee ?).
We had running hot water and a warm house in winter. Just have to change your thinking.
BUT .. do we really want to be burning all that wood and coal in open fires or furnaces again ?? :?
 
$150 - 12V 25000mAh battery (3s5p)
3s1p - Constant Discharge: 20C / Peak Discharge (20sec): 30C
thats 500A Constant and 750A peak .. right??

$668 - bottom sheet - 4X 48 in. x 96 in. Polycarbonate Sheet
If a guy really needed more juice he could save $150 - $300 and find a cheaper bottom sheet material
opt for a 24V inverter .... This is out of my grasp
but additional banks of batteries.
3s10p - 1000A Constant and 1500A Peak
3s15p - 1500A Constant and 2000A Peak
 
3s10p - 1000A Constant and 1500A Peak
3s15p - 1500A Constant and 2000A Peak

The largest 12v inverter I could find (w/ a quick google search) was 5kw..that's 400a at 12.5v...

0000awg wire is 0.46" diameter and should carry 195 amps at 140°f. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge)

If I'm reading right, to safely supply 400a would require each cable to be about an inch thick. Now think what it would take for 2000a! :shock: :lol:
 
Sometimes, depending on duty cycles and load staggering, you can pull quite a few more amps through wire than the chart says. Alternative energy systems should be thought of in a different way altogether than grid energy. With grid power, the electrician will usually wire the house so every circuit can pull it's full amperage continuously. This is because there is always enough energy available, it's relatively cheap in the short term, and most people are simply too uninformed/uneducated about power consumption to use it wisely. I've seen a retired electrician run 200 ft of 14 gauge extension cord to his green house to run two 1500 watt space heaters, a fan, lights, and a water mister. It's amazing that his house didn't burn down. He wanted to put new ends on the cords because the old ones melted......

My system uses three runs of 2 gauge wire from the batteries to the inverter. It handles 300 amps continuous with no temp rise at the wire and the only about five degrees over room temp at the 350A breaker. I pulled 450A through it with the 5kw inverter and the wire got slightly warm to the touch....didn't have the infrared thermometer yet. The wire chart says I should have used bigger wire but I had to use what was available and what I could afford, thinking I'd monitor it and upgrade if necessary. I also considered that the only time my inverter will be pulling hard on the cables will be when I'm running things that are very intermittent, not giving the battery cables time to heat up. The three runs of 2 gauge works perfectly. Maybe the wire has better conductivity than wire that the universal charts reference??? Maybe everything's drastically underspec'd these days because too many people haul pallets of bricks on top of their VW Jettas? I don't know but I trust common sense, experience and real world testing more than charts most of the time. If I know I only have a 150 amp breaker, or wire with a 150 amp capacity, I won't plug in ten devices all at once that need 20 amps each, but I might put an inverter that can pull 200A on that wire if I know I will only be using it at that rate intermittently.

So what I'm getting at is, your family doesn't have to run everything at once. The toaster(is toast really that important...must be good bread..), the washing machine(once a week at most, don't get so dirty!), the dishwasher(I can do a load of dishes with one gallon of water in five minutes...dishwashers :roll: ....), the furnace, ten LCD tv's, the stereos, computers, every light in the house......everything being on at once shouldn't ever happen. There's no reason for it unless 50 people live in your house. I've seen many homes running like that though. Most likely, during the day, people are working. The panels are charging the batteries and there shouldn't be much load on the system. At night, a few rooms need lit up, some water needs heated, the heater blower might need to come on ever so often. Everything after that is pretty much an excess that can be moderated. If you're on the computer, turn off the TV, etc.... Big energy hogging chores can be done on days when the battery bank is pretty charged up and there's good sun.

It's actually really nice to know where your power comes from, how much you have, and how fast you are using it. Once you are aware of those things, you can make intelligent decisions and cut your energy usage by 90%, making alternative, sustainable power sources much less expensive to buy, install, and maintain.

Toast.....
 
So what I'm getting at is, your family doesn't have to run everything at once.

Except we do need that capability...

Put dinner in the oven and then say the fridge, chest freezer and hot water heater all kick on at the same time. Oh and someone just used the bathroom so the well-pump kicked on too. That's 5 appliances at once and you only turned one of them on - the others being as-needed or on-demand. Anyway...

A $2000 solar system making 1kwh/day (15¢/day) just isn't very useful unless you have nothing else. :|
 
A $2000 solar system making 1kwh/day (15¢/day) just isn't very useful unless you have nothing else. :|

production of thin film with 15% efficiency is ramping up

1kwh/day could be 2kwh/day for $2000
 
Even if I could get 2kwh/day for $2k, it would take me 26 years to make my money back. We pay 7.92¢/kwh plus a $15 'service fee' so last month our actual cost was 10.4¢/kwh.

I think solar is cool and everything but where I live I think it would make more sense to invest in a windmill. :)
 
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