Hozan c-700 Spoke Rolling issues

[Lurkin]

I purchased a C-700 to make custom spokes for my Q76R bike.

I measured the spokes, cut them with bolt cutters (cut a little longer than required) then filed them down flat as per the instructions on the box. I made very, very sure they were flat as others have detailed that this is where they have come unstuck.

I've rolled 40+ of these spokes all seemed to be going very, very well, using generous amounts of cutting fluid as recommended. They certainly looked the business. All was well.

However, now attempting to put the nipples on them, they all seem to jam once they are actually on the thread (yes, should have been checking this as I went). Meanwhile, the head of the tool has now taken to jamming in the middle of a spoke roll, completely destroying the thread on the spoke. So I can't really re roll them through the device but I cant really use them in their current state. I've walked away from it for the time being to let the rage subside.

Any suggestions?

 

[Chalo]

I think you didn't set the rollers tight enough to get the thread diameter you needed. When that's happened to me, I have had no particular problem tightening the head and rolling the spoke again. I only use the Hozan threader for isolated replacement spokes, though, not whole sets.

In the future, it would be a good idea to roll a single spoke and test it before doing the entire batch.

 

[nutnspecial]

I used mine attached to a variable spd drill, and would say the same thing. I accidentally messed with the adjuster nut on the first spoke because it got stock if memory serves.

I used a waste spoke repeatively and after about 3 more runs machine ran smoothly without too much effort on the drill. Checking with a nipple, the initial very tight start may have been from over pressing, because there the fit sloppier than I felt optimal. A slight tweak of adjuster made a snugger fit with nipple and it stayed that way for the 36, double checking against a nipple twice.

I'd use a scrap/spare and reset it to optimal fit with nipple, then attempt rerolling. I don't see why it won't deepen existing threads when readjusted!

 

[Lurkin]

I didn't play with setting the head given it stated clearly in the instructions that it was set for 14g from factory. Yeah, I'll give that a go.

 

[Lurkin]

Hmm. So I've been playing with spare spokes and adjusting the tightness of the head.

I've managed to set the tool to roll 14g freely on a brand new spoke, i.e. to continue its thread nicely and the nipple happily screws relatively freely into the new rolled threads. Win.

However, re rolling an existing cut spoke is proving the challenge. I think my technique for cutting the spokes has been the downfall It seems that the cut edge is trailing in the nipple and is dragging the whole back even after re rolling. Looks like I may need to start again. Argh. Not sure if theres a better way to correct the crappy cutting without having to start all over again but its looking that way. Or I re roll them and just force it on. Grr. not sure...

 

[Lurkin]

Hows everyone else cutting their spokes prior to rolling?

My method (not very good, clearly)
1. bolt cutters cutting longer than required
2. file to flat (bolt cutters pinch)
3. run file round the top to remove swag
4. roll

Thinking
- its not perfectly flat?
- not removing enough swag?
- not sure what else could be wrong?

 

[Chalo]

I use a cable cutter, like the Felco tool or one of its clones:

It cuts close enough to square that I have had no problems threading spokes cut this way.

 

[Lurkin]

Cheap clone ordered!

Thanks Chalo!

 

[ridethelightning]

not sure this helps, but i use a hobby linisher to take the sharp curf off spokes i get from newsons. i think it makes them easier to go on the nipple and if they were to be wound up in wheel truing after the tyre is on and they are a whisker long, im less worried about the sharp curf edge cutting through the rimtape and chaffing at the tube(iv had this happen a couple times, its the only way iv ever had a flat with a moto rim/tyre)

i think newsons cuts their spokes with a grinder, but not sure if thats just trimming after they cut the threads. anyway, i roll the end of each spoke at a steep angle, just off 90deg, once round, against the sanding belt to slightly round the end.

praps doing that might improve the thread cutting too?

btw, where did you get the spoke threading tool? iv been looking for one for ages now.

 

[nutnspecial]

Ebay or aliex has the hozan for ~120usd. Really handy imo. There's a vid on my channel showing it operated with a drill and a little info at the end about adjustment. I'm using it to remake spokes for several new wheels from retired 26" wheels.

Lurkin, I just cut mine with an angle grinder and cut off wheel. I found a short section of pipe that was tight for all spokes, then taped the bundle and zipped them all off together @ same length and squareness. Some dude on utube was using a drinking straw to gauge length for single spokes, and that gave me the idea to do the same with all the spokes @ once.
Then I set the drill on hozan shaft to thread equal amounts/lengths to aid the wheel build, for starting reference and dish. Any little shards left didn't seem to hurt anything, and the spokes were not rounded @ ends.
I think before I had the thing 'broken in' and set optimally I did try a reroll and it jammed, but hoped maybe that wouldn't be the case for you. I have def seen ubube vids of guys successfully rerolling to make threaded portions longer/deeper.
Are you using a drill or by hand? Good luck, let us know how you make out!

 

[Lurkin]

ebay and I wouldn't buy one. Not because of this - its way too much farting about and takes too long even when it does work. I have been doing it by hand because I wanted to get it to work before attaching any form of motor to it. Yes, I've seen the youtube clips using a handrill on the end. With how temperamental this thing is, I doubt I will ever put in the effort to attempt to motorise it.

I think you would also be more interested in heavier gauge spokes than 14g and I doubt it would be up to it.

I attempted using a grinder and cutting wheel previously, didn't seem much better than using the bolt cutters/filing method. What it needs is an instant, straight shear like a guillotine. I think Chalos idea is the closest to this because the cable cutter shear it rather than pinch it like bolt cutters do.

the money is far better spent on buying custom spokes to start with/ finding a bike shop with a phil wood, its really only appropriate for the once off odd ball spoke that broke than actually producing spokes for assembly. Fiddling with the head to set it to get the gauge becomes questionable as to whether it is too tight and is over rolling the spokes... yada yada.

 

[Lurkin]

So after all that whinging I followed your advice Chalo and bought a cheap clone set of those cable cutters, chopped and rolled a spoke in the weekend!



First successful spoke recycled! Very very happy with the result, I now have a sub $10 26" Trek frame mountain bike! Totally stoked, thank you for the advice!

 

[Chalo]

Cool; you'll be glad you have that tool when it's time to cut cables and housing.

 

[Lurkin]

All ready done 8) I think I might buy a better quality set for cables going forward, using sharp ones is super sweet but I doubt they will stay that way (given they are just a clone) using them on cutting spokes.

Now to get back to recutting and rolling the other entire wheel.... :lol:

 

[nutnspecial]

I'm glad the cutter is working. I am betting hand rolling might be more finicky to get a proper start and uniform results. Honestly there's no way I can imagine I'd ever use the thing without an attached drill after having a good experience, maybe even only for 1 or 2 spokes. There is a wobble and loose-ish clearances to the hozan driver, and it must be more difficult by hand. With drill, I just center the spoke and heads, give some inward pressure, and give some power- I think others could have good results too when doing alot of duplicates.

Just make sure you have a waste/scrap to get setup on, and confirm proper depth and length before and during threading more than a couple. Nothing changed on mine once set.

I was fairly sure you were in the other thread and would have seen it, but here's my vid again of rolling with the drill.
[youtube]md8lmbyhELk[/youtube]