Hydrogen Bike - Collection of ideas

[DasDouble]

Hi, I am just still in the stadium of thinking about powering a gasoline motorcycle with oxygen or water, etc etc.

There are many possibilitys, so I just want to collect all information I can get to come to a conclusion if it would make sence to power a gasoline bike with water / to change some things on it to make it run by hydrogen / water, etc.

I will write this in short keyphrases. So let´s start from the beginning:

Why should I power a gasoline bike by hydrogen? / Pros:

-To be independent from gasoline (-prices)
-To produce it in a cheaper way
-To learn stuff
-To use power from solar panels which doesn´t get used when there is "too much" sun. / Safe this energy.
-To produce zero emissions. (dat logic )

How to "charge":

- 1.) H2 filling station

pros:
-be on the way with bike, while producing h2
-advantage of using sun power, even when you are not at home with your vehicle.
-> faster refilling as power gets always used.

cons:
-(takes space of filling station at your home)
-complicate procedure of getting the gas from the stationiary tank to bike
-extra valves for safe procedure
-chance of getting h2 lost with time duo its tiny molecules


- 2.) H2 mobile tank to carry around from the station

pros:
-gives the possibility to own several gas tanks
-> gives advantage of fast changing of tanks
-> fast "recharging" procedure / filling procedure

cons:
-(takes space of filling station at your home)
-chance of getting h2 lost with time duo its tiny molecules


- 3.) H2 tank directly in car / vehicle / bike -> "charging" / filling bike directly

pros:
-?

cons:
-Bike has no advantage against 100% electric known ebikes as it has to stay at a place to recharge / refill.
-takes propably too much space in vehicle.
-water has to get refilled directly into vehicle
-maybe takes longer then charging battery


How to produce hydrogen / h2:

Quite simple. Electricity splits water down to hydrogen & oxygen.
+ pole = oxygen
- pole = hydrogen

When producing there is the danger of Dihydrogenmonoxid (Don´t know the translation for that).
Danger of suffocation when breathing too much hydrogen here.
Danger of explosion

When splitting water, the endproduct is "h2" (hydrogen) and "o" (oxygen).

Hydrogen is the explosive material, we need.
Hydrogen produces an invisible flame.
H2 explodes faster then gasoline.
H2´s explosions are stronger compared with fuel.
H2´s explosions are hotter then fuel´s.
Mixed at atmospheric pressure, you have to have a mixture of 4 - 77% (source wiki.). Otherwise it won´t explode.
Best mixture would be 66,6% - 33,3%.
When putting the mixture together, you have to look that all oxygen gets used. Otherwise the first explosions will be fine but later they will become bader because of the unused oxygen left inside.


Motors:

Reciprocation piston motor (Hubkolbenmotor):
-Danger of early inflammation because of
->hot gasses inside
->heated valves
->>ends in so called "knocking failure / beating failure"

Wankelmotor:

-Solves the problem of early inflammation because of
->no contact with hot gases left inside
->no hot valves

Benefits:
-Faster refilling then ebikes as gas tanks can get switches easy.

-Maybe longer range then bike batterys. (Depends, I know..)

-Maybe cheaper then high power ebikes. I calculate with not more then 1k€ to build this by my own to use this for a originally gasoline bike.

-(Some nice sound )

-Tell your neightbour you produce your own gasoline-replacement

Problems to solve:

-Hydroxy volatilizes really fast
-> All seals have to be really tight
-> Adds extras to get sure that no h2 can escape / volatilize.

-Danger of uncontrolled explosion
-> It has to be controlled that the mixture is right and at where it belongs to be.

Poorer efficiency then 100% ebikes. ebikes = 90%, h2 = 45%
Better efficiency then fuel vehicles (up to max. 38%).



More to come...

 

[chvidgov.bc.ca]

yes. what he said.

 

[liveforphysics]

[youtube]1-yLqwGS2dA[/youtube]

Hydrogen is neat like punching yourself in the dick is neat.

 

[DasDouble]

:lol: lfp I really appreciate you opinion, but I think even with the combination of gasoline and hydrogen, which reduces the need of gasoline for ~30-40% there can be new gates be opened.

 

[ElectricGod]

Surely NASA using fuel cells since the 60's can't suck this badly. This is probably just a really bad implementation.

 

[dustNbone]

I'm pretty sure NASA started using fuel cells for reasons other than their efficiency. Maybe the fact that conventional combustion doesn't work in space.

 

[amberwolf]

Yes; the main reason for fuel cells up there is because it's impractical to run a conventional generator or to carry enough battery for a mission, and solar + battery wouldn't work due to space/mass constraints on the launch vehicle or other reasons.

Wherever solar + battery is practical, that is used instead (or perhaps in addition).


Better efficiency isn't always why something is used; there are often reasons to go with much worse efficiency, due to practicality, cost, or other considerations.

 

[nutnspecial]

I don't think they've reached optimal efficiency for breaking h2o- playing with frequency and harmonics might have amazing results someday.

I do wonder if large scale hydrogen production would cause evident effects of imbalance or re-equalization? I mean, we can't use up all the water for hydrogen right

 

[amberwolf]

You're just making more water out of it when it reoxidizes.

 

[DasDouble]

I don't think they've reached optimal efficiency for breaking h2o- playing with frequency and harmonics might have amazing results someday.

I do wonder if large scale hydrogen production would cause evident effects of imbalance or re-equalization? I mean, we can't use up all the water for hydrogen right

Made my day :lol: The water doesn´t dissappear Out of the exhaust comes nothing else then.. Right: Water :wink:

The efficiency is quite high at the moment. Up to 80-90 percent if you use it right

 

[t_tberg]

lol a homemade h2-bike, sounds safe

 

[DasDouble]

lol home made 300 cells battery doesnt sounds better

 

[t_tberg]

When producing there is the danger of Dihydrogenmonoxid (Don´t know the translation for that).
Danger of suffocation when breathing too much hydrogen here.
Danger of explosion


When splitting water, the endproduct is "h2" (hydrogen) and "o" (oxygen).

Hydrogen is the explosive material, we need.
Hydrogen produces an invisible flame.
H2 explodes faster then gasoline.
H2´s explosions are stronger compared with fuel.
H2´s explosions are hotter then fuel´s.
Mixed at atmospheric pressure, you have to have a mixture of 4 - 77% (source wiki.). Otherwise it won´t explode.
Best mixture would be 66,6% - 33,3%.
When putting the mixture together, you have to look that all oxygen gets used. Otherwise the first explosions will be fine but later they will become bader because of the unused oxygen left inside.

Danger of early inflammation because of
->hot gasses inside
->heated valves


Solves the problem of early inflammation because of
->no contact with hot gases left inside
->no hot valves

-Hydroxy volatilizes really fast
-> All seals have to be really tight
-> Adds extras to get sure that no h2 can escape / volatilize.

-Danger of uncontrolled explosion
-> It has to be controlled that the mixture is right and at where it belongs to be.
[/b][/i]

 

[DasDouble]

Mate I don´t want to argue, but as long as you know what you are doing, and what not to do, it can be safe. Same like building a 18650 pack. There are also many things to do wrong. No reason to talk bad about h2. You just have to know what you are doing. As I said, building your own liIon pack can also go extreamly wrong.

Cheers

PS: And I know what I am talking about. I have built my 300 cell pack by my own so far.

 

[amberwolf]

When producing there is the danger of Dihydrogenmonoxid (Don´t know the translation for that).

That would be water. What danger is there in that? It is the end-product of hydrogen - oxygen combustion--if you don't want water, don't combine them.

When putting the mixture together, you have to look that all oxygen gets used. Otherwise the first explosions will be fine but later they will become bader because of the unused oxygen left inside.

? Not sure if you mean the "explosions" will be less or more powerful, but I wonder if either would be the case--you simply would have leftover oxygen; it might make it burn faster because more oxygen is freely available to recombine with the hydrogen.

 

[t_tberg]

I don't mean to bring hostility to such an altruistic community. I guess a collection of ideas is harmless, once you start building that type of thing in your basement is when I'd be a little concerned for you well being.

 

[spinningmagnets]

There are several ways to find yourself with a supply of H2. Once you have that:

H2 burns easily. Even though there may be an optimum air-fuel ratio, you can start an engine on just about any ratio and adjust H2/fuel feed by sound. gsasoline (by contrast) needs a fairly tight air-fuel ratio, or it will not ignite.

H2 has much less power density than gasoline. If your selected gasoline engine (50cc one cylinder?) Is adeqaute, then...it will have roughly 1/4 the power when using H2 as a fuel. This means you should start with the largest engine that is possible, which suits your needs, and then lower your performance expectations.

 

[liveforphysics]

No reason to talk bad about h2. You just have to know what you are doing.

Ive actually got many dozens of excellent reasons to talk bad about H2, and nobody has solved them at any price or budget even in fortunate 500 funded RnD attempts to make H2 useful.

You will never match any aspect of a batteries performance at the motorcycle scale, no matter the budget or engineering support commitment.

Realistically you will just waste time and materials before burning down and/or succeeding to a level you realize its a pitiful inefficient and costly failure prone step backwards from battery EVs.

 

[DasDouble]

Forgett everything I have talked about in the past. Burning h2 is just inefficient, there you are right lfp.
A better solution is a fuel cell which looks interesting, and is way more efficient then burning the whole stuff.

So let´s build a fuel cell and make something nice out of it

 

[liveforphysics]

Forgett everything I have talked about in the past. Burning h2 is just inefficient, there you are right lfp.
A better solution is a fuel cell which looks interesting, and is way more efficient then burning the whole stuff.

So let´s build a fuel cell and make something nice out of it

Fuel cells require a lobotomy before purchase or use.