ice sheet losses in Greenland and Antarctica reach new highs

TheBeastie said:
Climate change has always been happening. Below is a great video about how they have found tropical palms fossils and other vegetation that could only exist in warm beach paradises we like to holiday in today in cold Tasmania which was once part of Antarctica. These fossils prove that climate change has always been happening and the earth still merrily moves on. Folks who don't care about how much the climate can change could argue that we could technically have 'more' green life existing in this world where its just ice now but of course the goal is to keep everything how it is now and one could only imagine what the rest of the world would look like if there was a tropical rain forest in Antarctica, I think most would argue it would be deserts or a hellish volcano riddled world of lava.

Yes, at one point Antarctica was forested, which raises the interesting question of how the animals there coped with the 6 months of continual darkness in the winter. It's also previously been much, much colder than present. No one is questioning the idea of natural climate change. The problem is that what is happening now is not natural climate change, and yes, they are different. Natural ones happen very gradually over a periods of tens of thousands of years, giving life the chance to migrate or adapt (plenty still dies). The current global warming is happening on the scale of 100 years, which just isn't long enough. Sudden natural(ish) climate change has occurred in the past (huge meteorite strike or volcanic eruption) and they've resulted in mass extinction.

Climate change won't mean a greener earth. It means greener in previously frozen places and uninhabitable desert where there used to be green. The green bits just move further towards the poles and everything ends up living in the wrong climate. And the seas rise and acidify and the weather gets all screwed up.

FWIW, the first mass extinction (90+% of life) was probably the one caused by the "great oxygenation event", where the Earth went from having no oxygen to lots. Life as it is now is ideally adapted to the current (100 years ago) global climate. It's not a short-sighted conservatism to try and keep things the same old, it's an absolute requirement for the survival of most current life.
 
i don't think antarctica was at the pole back then so go see if you can find one of those time lapse videos of the breakup of gondwana and see where it was located. i think it was closer to the latitude of new zealand at that time.
 
TheBeastie said:
Climate change has always been happening. Below is a great video about how they have found tropical palms fossils and other vegetation that could only exist in warm beach paradises we like to holiday in today in cold Tasmania which was once part of Antarctica. These fossils prove that climate change has always been happening and the earth still merrily moves on. Folks who don't care about how much the climate can change could argue that we could technically have 'more' green life existing in this world where its just ice now but of course the goal is to keep everything how it is now and one could only imagine what the rest of the world would look like if there was a tropical rain forest in Antarctica, I think most would argue it would be deserts or a hellish volcano riddled world of lava.
true climate change has always been happening, that's what has caused all but possibly one mass extinction event.http://robertscribbler.com/2015/08/13/tumbling-down-the-rabbit-hole-toward-a-second-great-dying-world-oceans-face-is-now-shadowed-with-the-early-warning-signs-of-extinction/
 
Yep, things have moved about since then, and Australia was down there too, but it was still the Antarctic continent :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Polar_dinosaurs
 
TheBeastie said:
More proof that global warming is out of control. So hot bears are being forced to take over swimming pools...

[youtube]dB3XzIrvFHE[/youtube]
Remember when as a kid you learned in history class about all the explorers who died looking for a north west passage and how there is no north west passage to be found. Since we were kids that fact has changed, in a typical new normal summer there are several north west passages.
 
If you look at a current heat map basically the only current cold anomaly in the world is south of Greenland. The cause of this is huge amounts of Greenland's fresh melt water sitting on the surface of the ocean. Even though it is cold it doesn't sink because salinity affects buoyancy more than temperature.
http://qz.com/458683/the-record-breaking-heat-of-june-2015-means-this-could-be-earths-warmest-year-in-history/
https://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/noaa-temperatures.gif?w=990
 
Despite the US popping up more wind mills the total eletric output via the wind mills has decreased due to the lowest amount of wind experienced in 40 years apparently.
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/01/financial-times-us-clean-energy-suffers-from-lack-of-wind.html
 
TheBeastie said:
Despite the US popping up more wind mills the total eletric output via the wind mills has decreased due to the lowest amount of wind experienced in 40 years apparently.
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/01/financial-times-us-clean-energy-suffers-from-lack-of-wind.html
They should be located closer to Washington D.C. :lol:
 
The fingers said:
TheBeastie said:
Despite the US popping up more wind mills the total eletric output via the wind mills has decreased due to the lowest amount of wind experienced in 40 years apparently.
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/01/financial-times-us-clean-energy-suffers-from-lack-of-wind.html
They should be located closer to Washington D.C. :lol:

Ya mean like a little velocity stack at each desk, and they're supposed to talk right into it? How about we have then at each desk in Sacramento, too? And San Francisco and LA City Councils. All that electricity in California could be used to desalinate water.

altaerosbuoyantairturbine.jpg
 
We came out of an ice-age 15,000 years ago, and the Earth is supposed to continue getting warmer.
 
If there were no global warming the earth would be getting cooler and beginning to head into a new ice age in a few thousand years. If society was intelligent we would have only pumped out enough GHGs to keep the temperature flat.
 
rsilvers said:
We came out of an ice-age 15,000 years ago, and the Earth is supposed to continue getting warmer.

The warming trend over the last few decades has been much more rapid than that associated with any previous retreating ice-age. The science on whether man-made global warming is significant is settled: There is no room for debate.
 
My 6th grade home-room teacher told us that the Earth would run out of all oil by the year 2000. The same people who were predicting that were trying as hard as possible to make it be true by blocking every attempt at either locating oil and natural gas or delivering it via pipeline. They also blocked nuclear power and, through regulation, made it so expensive that it is no longer even practical. Then they blocked Cape Wind because they think windmills lower their property values.

The thermometers are not properly located, by the way.

Eastport_ME.jpg


Detroit_lakes_USHCN.jpg


Napa_State.jpg
 
Ah, No.7 on the list of Most Used Climate Myths: "Temp record is unreliable"

http://www.skepticalscience.com/surface-temperature-measurements.htm

Do you really think thousands of scientists and meteorologists wouldn't have realised their instruments had become affected by increased urbanisation and they had failed to correct for it?
 
Punx0r said:
Ah, No.7 on the list of Most Used Climate Myths: "Temp record is unreliable"

http://www.skepticalscience.com/surface-temperature-measurements.htm

Do you really think thousands of scientists and meteorologists wouldn't have realised their instruments had become affected by increased urbanisation and they had failed to correct for it?

I know they try to correct for it, but that link is a little thin on justification for accepting the poor data. The link says that what really matters is if the collective temps from all of the sensors is getting warmer over time or not. Of course the aggregate will increase just from the development going on near the sensors.

We are talking about fractions of a degree C. I would just scrap any data from sensors that are not at least 100 feet from anything that can affect them.
 
Try clicking on the "Advanced" tab for a more in-depth explanation.

Presumably, only using data from optimally-placed stations (also bearing in mind the validity of each one would have to be verified) would have an overall deleterious effect on the data because the number of observations would be too few. Better to use the clever statistical tools available to utilise all or most datapoints, while correcting for sources of measurement bias.
 
rsilvers said:
My 6th grade home-room teacher told us that the Earth would run out of all oil by the year 2000. The same people who were predicting that were trying as hard as possible to make it be true by blocking every attempt at either locating oil and natural gas or delivering it via pipeline. They also blocked nuclear power and, through regulation, made it so expensive that it is no longer even practical. Then they blocked Cape Wind because they think windmills lower their property values.

That's funny. While I grew up with that about running out of oil, it came loudest from the pronuke crowd. It used to be the right wanted nuclear power and the left wanted oil and gas during the solar takeover. (Which would only take a few years.) I remember oil from shale was supposed to be that they could run the shale through cement mixers and oil would come out. to some of these proshalers.

It's so hard to figure out what's going on, at least from listening to the enthusiasts.
 
Not sure where this idea came from that oil would disappear by 2000.

In the 1970s M. King Hubbert predicted that the world would peak in conventional oil production around 2000. Peak means maximum oil production.
His previous prediction of the USA peaking was correct.
 
Maybe it came from President Carter. The date could have been between 2000-2010.

https://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2015/06/22/president-carter-said-the-world-would-run-out-of-oil-by-2010/
 
His advisors were wrong - discovery of new viable oil fields clearly failed to follow the downward trend it had been on. Science and technology pitted its wits against nature to extract oil from the most ridiculous depths beneath the oceans.

Still, I'm not sure how a past incorrect prediction of future oil production is related to the topic at hand of Anthropogenic Global Warming?
 
There is a side agenda going on. There are people who just hate others having air conditioning and personal transportation and try to make petroleum and nuclear prohibitively expensive. Just yesterday someone posted that they hope gasoline is $6 to $8 per gallon to "break out addiction to fuels." It means that I approach these issues together and with extreme prejudice.

Do I want my electricity to be 35 cents per KwH like NY due to regulation? No. Do I want gasoline to cost as much as CA due to regulation? No. Am I ok with fracking? Absolutely. Do I want a pipeline for natural gas? Yes.

We don't need these massive subsidies for renewable energy because it will take care of itself through the normal system of capitalism. We have enough pace of technology that we will solve future energy needs before we run out of oil and natural gas. Rather than doing "cash for clunkers" and making me buy someone else a new car, President Obama could have set a goal to build 100 new nuclear plants in the US within 20 years. There are post-Fukushima designs now that are safe. Even Bill Gates is for it.

But sure, if clean renewable energy were not expensive and not subsidized by taxpayers, then everyone would love it.

I don't see Tesla opting to only purchase electricity from renewable sources and double their electric rate. They say they plan to as a future goal. Well, I plan to as a future goal also - when it does not cost more.
 
The current designs of lightwater reactors may well be safe, but they still generate large amounts of very dangerous waste. They are also expensive to build and very expensive to decommission. There are some promising designs for reactors which produce much less waste, but they are, AFAIK, unproven at the moment.

Green power is seeing steadily reduced subsidies. IIRC solar power is now roughly cost equivalent to coal. We also forget the enormous subsidies the fossil fuel industries have received, and continue to do so.

It's not an issue of "running out of oil". The problem is that to avert climate disaster we cannot burn the proven fossil reserves we already have. It has to stay in the ground.

rsilvers said:
Do I want my electricity to be 35 cents per KwH like NY due to regulation? No. Do I want gasoline to cost as much as CA due to regulation? No. Am I ok with fracking? Absolutely. Do I want a pipeline for natural gas? Yes.

Nobody wants to pay more to continue receiving they previously enjoyed at a lower price. However, commercial drivers are often the strongest source of change in social habits. It mostly impacts commerce and industry, where a modest change in energy prices makes it viable to invest in more efficient processes. Increased domestic energy prices can encourage people to better insulate their homes and drive more fuel efficient cars. The effect is paying more per unit but using less, so cost stays relatively flat. It's just incentivising people to make the upfront expenditure of more efficient technology. It's like replacing the incandescent bulbs in your home with LED.

Also, we all make a compromise between responsible (low impact) living and convenience and enjoyment. Different people are just at different points on the spectrum. We're likely to see a shift in the average behaviour, though. A decade ago it was normal that all household refuse went to landfill (no separation or recycling) and people let their dogs shit in the street. That's now minority behaviour.
 
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