INTENSE Tracer 275 with Tangent Ascent

Id be selling the bbshd and buying one of these. The Bafang mid driveunits historically have not responded particularly well to more power, rather, they sold as a pretty decent package as they are.

Guess its a new product and you will do it anyway.. it will be curious to see how many kms you can get out of it.
 
Lurkin said:
Id be selling the bbshd and buying one of these. The Bafang mid driveunits historically have not responded particularly well to more power, rather, they sold as a pretty decent package as they are.

Guess its a new product and you will do it anyway.. it will be curious to see how many kms you can get out of it.
Click to expand...
The 02 was at about its limit but this HD has room to be pushed farther. For me it's all about stealth. The bafang is silent and visually not obvious with no exposed drive system. If not for this I would have gone with the tangent for sure.
 
Awesome install. I've got a couple of full sus custom frames to do, this might be the drive.
I'd skip the 2.5ah cells though and go for 3.5ah - you'll save a lot of space and weight.
How many amps is the drive pulling?
 
This is where my novice status shows the most... :oops:
I bought complete kits....the designers of those kits thought of all those details for me.
I honestly wouldn't know amps from volts, that bad...I've been tuning bikes for decades, but electrictity is far from my strong suit.

I need to learn...I'm receptive...but don't really know where to start.
I read every thread as it comes up...slowly soaking it all in...
..wish I had better answers for ya....

Need to get TangentDave in here for those details.
 
Of the Luna batteries available, the 25r seems to be the highest power, so that's what I got.

I am looking to get the biggest/lightest high power pack I can....so i can go a long ways fast, without killing my back from the weight.
What do I look for? Is there much better than the 25r?
I want to stick with 18650s, LiPo is not a good idea for a uber-newb like me.
...all the data is highly confusing, unsure what each number means, and what those numbers equal in a finished pack... lol

Update: Added ENVE/DT240 wheels and Lyric180 fork.....39lbs!!!

DSC_0009.jpgView attachment 4DSC_0011.jpgView attachment 2DSC_0026.jpgDSC_0023.jpg
 
wow, that looks awesome. how does the wire under the saddle connect to your battery, is there some form of quick release that will disconnect in the event of a crash?
 
Great looking build man. I seriously considered doing a tangent build with an AM bike, or DH bike even but somehow settled on a fat bike. Just waiting for TangentDave to wrap up a few things before my kit ships.

The 25R battery pack you picked out is the one to go with if you want to run that beast at the 60A, or even 80A its designed for. The only downside to the LunaCycle batteries is that the BMS does 50A continuous 80A max, but it's as good as you're going to get. I'm going to get his 25R triangle pack for my build, $749 is honestly not a bad price for that.

While the Panasonic packs use 3.5 AH cells, and you could build up a 20 amp hour pack with fewer cells and save weight, I don't think they're capable of the sustained current draw you need. Samsung 25R cells can sustain 20A each, get 7-8 of them in parallel and you are good to 140-160a
 
RobertPaulson: yes, the saddle cable runs straight to the motor harness.
That seat cable has a female xt90s connector, and my back battery has an extension cord with the male xt90s.
If I jump off the bike, that connector just slips out and i'm free, haven't had any issues with it disconnecting at unwanted times.
( I may have to replace those connectors every few months as they might get looser over time.)

FastJohnny:
Thanks, I bet your fat bike is gonna be rad, all that power and all that traction!
So, the BMS...I hear it's a necessary element for safety....but with limits as you say.
Are there higher BMS limits available?....If I want to hit that max amp range, do I need to go custom for a battery?
3.5ah cells....which model of cell are the very best choice, cost no object? ....for max power?....and maybe max powerWITHrange?
 
Dogboy1200 said:
Cool. I plan on hot rodding my BBSHD with an external controller in a couple months. My goal would be to match the power of the Tangent (nothing I can really do about the weight) but with the noise level of the BBS. I gotta say that bike of yours is Bad Ass!!!
Click to expand...

Hopefully remembering that the seller isn't responsible when things go south...

Sorry I'm sure that's won't be the case but I'm amazed by how many will actually do just that. EM3ev pulled controllers when the programming cables first came out. Asshats experimenting and claiming warrantee grew exponentially.
 
tomjasz said:
Dogboy1200 said:
Cool. I plan on hot rodding my BBSHD with an external controller in a couple months. My goal would be to match the power of the Tangent (nothing I can really do about the weight) but with the noise level of the BBS. I gotta say that bike of yours is Bad Ass!!!
Click to expand...

Hopefully remembering that the seller isn't responsible when things go south...

Sorry I'm sure that's won't be the case but I'm amazed by how many will actually do just that. EM3ev pulled controllers when the programming cables first came out. Asshats experimenting and claiming warrantee grew exponentially.
Click to expand...
True that! I plan on cleaning after my own mess.
 
Dogboy1200 said:
True that! I plan on cleaning after my own mess.
Click to expand...

Please share the "mess". Many will be wanting this report!
 
Leebolectric said:
RobertPaulson: yes, the saddle cable runs straight to the motor harness.
FastJohnny:
Thanks, I bet your fat bike is gonna be rad, all that power and all that traction!
So, the BMS...I hear it's a necessary element for safety....but with limits as you say.
Are there higher BMS limits available?....If I want to hit that max amp range, do I need to go custom for a battery?
3.5ah cells....which model of cell are the very best choice, cost no object? ....for max power?....and maybe max powerWITHrange?
Click to expand...

You have the best commercially available battery that I know of. 25R is the best cell for this application. The Tangent Ascent is set to 60A, you could set it higher potentially. I've been tossing around the idea of doing a custom pack, but I have a soldering iron, and a heat gun, and a multimeter, I would need a spot welder, nickel strips, heat shrink tubing, etc.. Add to that I havent found any BMS's that will do more than 50A continuous.

Here's a quick cheat sheet on E bike energy.

Watts make the bike go faster. Watts is Voltage X Amps
50V * 60A = 3000 watts and so is 60V * 50A

AH = How long they last, a 20AH pack should get you 40 miles or so on that setup

The old "go to" Samsung 29e's in my BBS-02 battery pack are 2.9AH 2.85A Continuous. They're wired up 13S7P. Meaning take the 4.2V Voltage X 13 = 54.6V, and 2.9AH X 7 = 20.3AH, problem is its also 2.85 X 7 = 20A continuos output. So I have a 20AH battery made out of high density Samsung 29e's that only uses 84 batteries, and weighs like 5 lbs, but it can only sustain 20A.

The Samsung 25R is a high amp output cell. Its 2500MAH instead of 2900MAH so it takes MORE of them to make up a 20AH pack, but it puts out 20A PER CELL. So if its a 14S8P pack (guessing), it can sustain huge loads of 160A, but its being limited by the BMS to 50-60A.


This is my understanding, but I am just getting into this myself.
 
I can chime in on tech details.

The CA is set to 60A battery current limit, this eliminates the phase overcurrent warning from the HV80. If we look at the HV80 log after a ride, we'll see phase current spikes of about 100A with this CA limit. The HV80 has an adjustable phase current warning/trip, I leave it on the low setting of 120A (this is when the HV80 will reduce current and beep to tell you). The 60A battery limit matches the 3210 well and creates a bike with impressive torque that is difficult to overheat. Pulling 60A is not common and you usually have to purposefully try to see that much power. I use full throttle all the time on the trails, but if the motor is spinning 30% or faster, I usually see ~45A on the CA.

LunaCycle now offers a few different 52V battery packs. Their newest pack, the 20Ah 18650b pack, is half the physical size of the 20Ah 25r pack. But, the 18S6P 18650b pack is near is upper limit for the current capacity of each cell and we might reduce its lifespan with the 60A draw of the Tangent kit. Until I've tried more packs, I think we should stick to the 25r packs. The XT90 connectors pull out fine during a crash. One trick is to zip tie the bike's cable with about 6" hanging off the seat so the connector is free to swing and is always pulled on straight.

-dave
 
Those are the 10A Panasonic cells right? I feel like that pack would get pretty hot pulling 45A.
 
View attachment ACA4000CE417.pdf

Here's the data sheet for the Panasonic NCR 18650b cells used in the Luna pack. We can see the max discharge rate of 2C, or 6A. The 20Ah 18650b battery pack is a 6p configuration...so a calculated 36A limit for the pack...

The 18650b pack is only 2lbs lighter than the corresponding 25r pack. But we could fit two 18650b packs in about the same space as the 25r pack, so 2 in parallel is enough current and 40Ah of fun.

-dave
 
tangentdave said:

But we could fit two 18650b packs in about the same space as the 25r pack, so 2 in parallel is enough current and 40Ah of fun.
-dave
Click to expand...

Hahaha thats what Im talking about. 80 Miles of singletrack would kill me though. I'd have to call out the next day.
 
Consider the Sanyo/panasonic 18650GA cells at ten amps per cell. In the same sizes cyclinder you'll get 3450mah or so depending on C rate.
 
tangentdave said:
The 18650b pack is only 2lbs lighter than the corresponding 25r pack. But we could fit two 18650b packs in about the same space as the 25r pack, so 2 in parallel is enough current and 40Ah of fun.
Click to expand...

From Tangent specs, the Ascent needs (can do) 1750w, 35a, 50v continuous.

From Luna specs, that Panasonic pack delivers 1500w, 30a, 50v continuous.

That would leave using one of these packs 250w and 5a short at 50v. Would using only one of these 18650b packs be detrimental in any way (i.e. overheating battery, shortened battery life, etc.)?

P.S. I've edited this because the answer is already posted- Yes, both shortened life span and overheating.
 
Sweet ride! Did you already have the bike, or did you buy it specifically for this drive?

Waiting for this vids... My friend did a custom mount for his GoPro off the rear axle, that would be cool to see on this bike off the right side. :twisted:
 
HamsterPower said:
tangentdave said:
The 18650b pack is only 2lbs lighter than the corresponding 25r pack. But we could fit two 18650b packs in about the same space as the 25r pack, so 2 in parallel is enough current and 40Ah of fun.
Click to expand...

From Tangent specs, the Ascent needs (can do) 1750w, 35a, 50v continuous.

From Luna specs, that Panasonic pack delivers 1500w, 30a, 50v continuous.

That would leave using one of these packs 250w and 5a short at 50v. Would using only one of these 18650b packs be detrimental in any way (i.e. overheating battery, shortened battery life, etc.)?

P.S. I've edited this because the answer is already posted- Yes, both shortened life span and overheating.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure the CA on the Ascent is set to 60A continuous, but can be set lower to accomadate other packs. In talking with Dave, he has said that when set to 60A you need to try to put out that kind of power and the motor typically pulls 45A
 
etard :
All bought new, for about $6,500 complete as seen in the pics....lotta Ebay deals in there, way under retail.

I didn't want a $10,000 Stealth, with mediocre level components that can't climb extended hills.

I didn't want an underpowered name brand complete E-bike like Trek,Specialized,Haibike...they all disappointed me with their stats.

I didn't want a used bike, with worn suspension linkages...and questionable abuse history.

If I was gonna spend the money...I wanted the most reliability and flex free build possible.
I had seen pix of TangentDave's previous Tracer build...so I knew the motor would fit....then carefully selected parts.
Every part was hand picked for this build, no compromises made, for the lightest weight without any loss in strength or performance.
(handlebars,headset still stock...will be upgraded by summer, Thompson Dropper post added)

Videos will come...but here in Oregon it is a muddy mess...I will be trying to keep this build pristine till the ground dries out.
I don't want to hamburger this bike before it sees a prime trail...hehe
Till then, I'll be hammering my Bafang5spot and getting used to E-bike technical riding...so when I do ride the Tracer, I'll have good flow.
I'll try to make a vid sooner...but mud covers the camera within the first 100 ft of any trail...need to design a TearOff system like goggles. :roll:
...hang in there, I'll be sure to make vids that are worth the wait. :D
 
Another lil addition...
The CycleAnalyst sits high and takes up a lot of bar space.
I added this ProblemSolvers extension, which puts the display below and in front of my bars.
http://problemsolversbike.com/products/handlebar_accessory_mount
Now, I can see it better when in attack position, and it is less likely to be broken from my body.
I needed more room for lights to mount, and now the lights sit over the display without adding glare to it.
Also...I can now flip the bike upside down, without risking damage to the display, when I need to do quick repairs.

View attachment 1DSC_0013.jpg
 
Looking good man, you should grab one of those dropper posts that has the front derailleur like mechanism on it, it would fit your bike perfectly.
 
^ I got the Thompson Dropper, loving it :D

So...I wanted to wait...but I couldn't...so here's a video of the first trail ride.... :lol: wheeee!
I went much further, but didn't feel like dealing with the camera in the muddier sections.
I left the sound unedited so ya'll could hear the motor volume...I hate the clicking sound from the GoPro mount too.
It has way more power available than the muddy trail allows...can't wait for some steady dry weather!!
(much better quality on VIMEO... https://vimeo.com/153116790)

[youtube]y7JrhThJfvI[/youtube]
 
Leebolectric said:
^ I got the Thompson Dropper, loving it :D

So...I wanted to wait...but I couldn't...so here's a video of the first trail ride.... :lol: wheeee!
I went much further, but didn't feel like dealing with the camera in the muddier sections.
I left the sound unedited so ya'll could hear the motor volume...I hate the clicking sound from the GoPro mount too.
It has way more power available than the muddy trail allows...can't wait for some steady dry weather!!
Click to expand...

After watching that Im super jealous. Your bike is sick, the motor rips, and you have yours already, and I wont have mine until later this week! We have pretty much the same riding style, and in the beginning I was like "Why is he even bothering to pedal?" Then I remembered I do the same thing when it's freezing out just to warm up.

How do you like the throttle response on Tangent compared to the Bafang? It looks way quicker to respond.

What type of gearing are you running front and rear? I have an 11-36 cassette, a wolftooth 42T cog coming, and both Raceface 32T and 34T narrow wides to choose from.

You've got me seriously considering running this setup on the fatbike for the winter, and throwing it on a Downhill or Enduro bike come summer.

Also, the Fatbike has a shitty Sram X5 shifter/derailleur. I usually run an XT shadow plus, but how do you like the X9?
 
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