Jack Richard EVTV FIRE !!

Doctorbass

100 GW
Joined
Apr 8, 2007
Messages
7,501
Location
Quebec, Canada East
Yesterday Jack had a fire at his shop.. :shock:

From what i have read he have big loss and no insurance. A battery pack cought on fire.

He is safe and his familly too but the shop and thousand dollars of EV parts are big loss!

http://evtv.me/2015/11/a-dark-and-sunny-sunday/

I have described what happens in these overcharging lithium battery fires actually quite accurately in the past. But no one is ever there to SEE them and see the initial violence. I actually DID in this case. I observed the entire process. It explains the total destruction.


[youtube]XUIHrQuBnnk[/youtube]


POP. BANG.

What was that? Sounded like somebody banging on one of the closed garage doors. BANG POP POP. What the hell?

I went into the next room to see who was banging on the door, but as I reached to open the door, the POP POP BANG sounded again but BEHIND me. I walked over to the Better Place battery pack from the Renault Influenza that we use on the OEM components test bench. BANG POP POP. These are actually pretty loud. What the……?????

This pack was right out of the cargo container and we never even attempted a bottom balance. We were only going to use it for testing chargers and DC-DC converters and the UQM test bench. But as the result of one of our assclowns playing around with the bench while I wasn’t in the shop, it had drained down very slowly overnight to a very low level.

It seemed to charge back up ok. But never quite got to full charge. So I had hooked it up earlier in the afternoon to bring it up some more.

I quickly shut off the charger and cut off the contactors. But it continued to BANG and POP irregularly. I can’t leave to go to bridge with it like this I’m thinking. As there had been several of these “no show” moments in the past few weeks where I threw my wife under the bus with regards to one plan or another, this was not really good. I can’t believe I’m doing this again.

Suddenly the pack begins to issue the familiar white smoke – just a bit at first, then more. The pack weighs 450 lbs, and the fork lift is at the other end of the building. I went over to the wall water spigot, glad I had a couple hundred feet of hose there to water our grass. No hose. Assclown somewhere had made command level decision to move it down to the basement in the other building apparently. There was a hose, but it was four feet long.

By this time the white smoke was coming out pretty good. I don’t know why, but I was curious what the temps were. So I grabbed an infrared gun and shot all the cells. Most were warmish in the 35-40C range but there were two sitting at 95C. Not good.

Suddenly the pack spewed a spear of sparks and flame about six feet straight out the front – right where I had been a moment before. And then it exploded into a massive fireball shooting flames up to the ceiling with such velocity that they splashed laterally from there.

It would have made excellent video I must say. At this point, I’m out of altitude, airspeed, and ideas all at the same time. I jumped in the Tesla and backed it out of the building. For some reason, I closed teh garage door after I was out, as I always do. I then had a positively exasperating wrestling match with the car for control of my cell phone to dial 911. I mean this car wanted to do ANYTHING except dial the phone. It played some Kriss Christopherson “Help Me Make it through the Night” (right) and some Rod Stewart. But it must have taken me three or four minutes to get it to dial 3 digits.


Doc
 
Charging a pack that had been dragged down to death without a BMS? The same pack that something didn't seem right with?

Who exactly is the 'assclown' there?! His disliking for BMS'es bit him back something spectacular there.

Bottom balancing - is never done by OEM's for very good reason. Neither is charging a pack without a BMS.
 
heathyoung said:
Who exactly is the 'assclown' there?!

He's the guy who calls ES "Endless FEAR." https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?author_id=14578&sr=posts

But I do remember him vacillating on the BMS issue. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54229&p=807601#p807601
 
Batteries are merciless to error or latent imperfections.

My condolences Jack, glad you weren't hurt, and congrats on getting your Tesla out!
 
heathyoung said:
......Who exactly is the 'assclown' there?!.....
I do believe Jack is referring to himself.!
..and be careful with that stone throwing....
..he is not the only one who has preached the shortcomings of "Battery Murdering Systems" !..... :wink:

I just hope we are fortunate enough to learn the exact reasons this occurred , so we can all be a little safer in future.
I think Jack is honest enough to spell out the details of the errors that lead to this.
 
But as the result of one of our assclowns playing around with the bench while I wasn’t in the shop....

No he's blaming someone else.
 
Mucho sympathy for your loss, it shows how it can still happen to a very experienced operator.

An inadvertent over discharge that you are unaware of is a huge problem. Then on recharge, you are now breaking one of the cardinal rules that can lead to a fire. How you want to balance we can disagree all day on, but I think we should all agree that anything that prevents over discharge can be a very good thing. BMS, alarms, better employees, whatever.

This shows how cautious we should all be about where we locate a suspect pack that is being charged. You wouldn't work with ether or acetone inside without a serious fire hood. But we charge batteries wherever.
 
Glad nobody was injured. This reminds me of the reason that detached garages for ICE vehicles have always been favored by insurance companies. A pre-cast concrete garage would double as a storm shelter here in the Midwest.
 
I just decided to take all my suspect lithium cells in a military amo case that i have.

Anybody got more recent info about that event?
 
There's a natural human tendency to think: "it will never happen to me"

When was the last time you checked the air-pressure in your cars' spare tire? Imagine finding out it has only 5-PSI in the middle of a cold and rainy night where there's no cell reception. I am guilty...

How many times have we read here on ES that someone "just wanted to take a spin around the block on their new kit while they were waiting for the torque-arm to arrive in the mail"? Thanks to them, we have lots of useful pictures about how to dis-assemble a hubmotor and re-solder phase wires (I haven't done that yet, give me some time...)

I did the "I'll just take a top-speed run with this new LiPo pack bungee-corded onto the cargo-rack, and I'll build a great battery case this week-end!" https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=26805&p=387312#p387312
 
Gregory said:
But as the result of one of our assclowns playing around with the bench while I wasn’t in the shop....

No he's blaming someone else.
Yep, seems to be from that.
But I still don't understand how this commercial , fully self contained pack, with inbuilt BMS, cooling, and various other safety features, was able to be overcharged...or over discharged? ..." Straight out of the container" ?
Obviously there is more to this than we have been told so far
Several "assclowns" in action together , I suspect !
 
Hillhater said:
Gregory said:
But as the result of one of our assclowns playing around with the bench while I wasn’t in the shop....

No he's blaming someone else.
Yep, seems to be from that.
But I still don't understand how this commercial , fully self contained pack, with inbuilt BMS, cooling, and various other safety features, was able to be overcharged...or over discharged? ..." Straight out of the container" ?
Obviously there is more to this than we have been told so far
Several "assclowns" in action together , I suspect !

I agree Hillhater
The battery pack had already told you it was not trust worthy after the deep discharge a mate of my loss a Garage car and several model planes and helicopters to trying to bring a Lipo back from the dead.
Cheers Kiwi
 
What I think is impressive is the consistency of these OEM cells. He said the pack had probably been top balanced by the manufacturer. He was not using the BMS, and drained the pack down to 100 volts, or lower, 1.04 volts per cell or less. He charged the pack up to 385 volts, 4.01 per cell, and it quickly fell to 340-350 volts. Obviously some cells had died. He charged it again to 400 volts this time, 4.16 per cell. Out of 48, 2s2p modules, 46 got to 30-40C, and only two were at 90C. And with 4 cells per module, it is possible that only one cell in each of those two actually failed initially, as few as 2 out of 192 cells. I'd say that was damned good.
 
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