Kona Ute Electric won't turn on

[jakehrosenberg]

I bought an Electric Kona Ute off craigslist a couple years ago and it has served me well as a grocery getter and to take my son along for rides. Now, for some reason, the handlebar mounted computer/display won't turn on. It displays the time, but won't do anything else. The display battery is brand new, and the 24V main battery checks out fine at something like 29V. It's currently in the shop at a local Kona/ebike dealer but they've given up on it now. They suspect that the display has died and say that Kona no longer has spares (which I believe, but am attempting to verify as well). I know that this bike was generally considered to be underpowered but it seems to give me just the assist that I need to make it up the hills in Seattle, while still getting a little exercise. I don't know a whole lot about the components currently on the bike, but I think that it's a 250W front hub motor, 24V battery, and a pedelec motor controller.

My questions are these:

-Does anyone know any way to diagnose the problem and say with any confidence that it is in fact the handlebar display that's the problem? I've seen people speak of an ebike tester from eBay on here, would that help me? Kona says that there is a way to plug into the ECM to diagnose it, but none of the Kona shops seem to know what they're talking about.

-Is there any chance that I can find a replacement display for it, or possibly adapt a different display to it while retaining the original battery, motor, and controller?

-If it really is a lost cause, what kit or parts would people recommend to replace the entire system and get this thing back on the road? The shop says that they would install a Bafang 8fun 500W setup, which I guess is a totally different setup than my current front wheel hub motor and pedelec controller. I don't want to break the bank too much, but if I have to replace everything, I'd like to do it right.

Thanks in advance for all the help!

 

[dogman dan]

I'd be inclined to call it a lost cause because of the low power alone. The weights I haul, the hill I climb to home, I'd upgrade to at least 1000w. 48v stuff.

BBs02, 750w ( bafang mid drive kit) on that ute would be sweet! Or at least a low rpm rear motor with 1000w.

At interbike this year, all the cargo bikes were sporting the mid drives.

 

[jakehrosenberg]

I'd be inclined to call it a lost cause because of the low power alone. The weights I haul, the hill I climb to home, I'd upgrade to at least 1000w. 48v stuff.

BBs02, 750w ( bafang mid drive kit) on that ute would be sweet! Or at least a low rpm rear motor with 1000w.

At interbike this year, all the cargo bikes were sporting the mid drives.

Thanks for the thoughts. I kind of figured that's the suggestion I'd get and it may have to come to that. If I do have to replace everything, I'd certainly choose more power, but the 250W did give me the boost that I needed to get the groceries home. If I could get this thing going again without having to fork out $1000 it would sure be nice. Any thoughts about replacing just the display with a newer model? Is it possible that I could find something somewhat compatible? Here's a picture of the display in case someone can identify it.

 

[docw009]

I wouldn't toss it out. If it were me, I'd spend $30 on a 24 volt controller from elifebike on ebay and see if I could make it work with that front hub motor. It comes with a Pedelec sensor and a three mode power controller. A throttle could be added for another $15. The brake switches and battery have to be wired in. Throw away your existing display.

Of course, if you have little electrical fixit experience, this could be daunting, and I bet the motor wiring would not be plug n play. Some analysis would be needed.

The other alternative is you buy a complete 24 volt geared front wheel kit for $200 from a vendor. If he's any good, all the wiring is documented and correct, so you get everything you need. The catch is, a lot of vendors have errors here and there in their docs. I got lucky in that the wheel kit I bought was well documented and worked right. Seems like that's not the norm?

It also seems to me that if the Kona shop guys had any expertise at all, beyond bolting in replacement parts, that they could do either of the above. Heck, I didn't even know e-bikes existed six months ago, and I bought one and built a second, with plans for a third.

 

[jakehrosenberg]

I wouldn't toss it out. If it were me, I'd spend $30 on a 24 volt controller from elifebike on ebay and see if I could make it work with that front hub motor. It comes with a Pedelec sensor and a three mode power controller. A throttle could be added for another $15. The brake switches and battery have to be wired in. Throw away your existing display.

Of course, if you have little electrical fixit experience, this could be daunting, and I bet the motor wiring would not be plug n play. Some analysis would be needed.

The other alternative is you buy a complete 24 volt geared front wheel kit for $200 from a vendor. If he's any good, all the wiring is documented and correct, so you get everything you need. The catch is, a lot of vendors have errors here and there in their docs. I got lucky in that the wheel kit I bought was well documented and worked right. Seems like that's not the norm?

It also seems to me that if the Kona shop guys had any expertise at all, beyond bolting in replacement parts, that they could do either of the above. Heck, I didn't even know e-bikes existed six months ago, and I bought one and built a second, with plans for a third.

Well, I didn't find the $30 controller, but I did find this one, could it possibly work? I confirmed that the bike has a 250W brushless geared 8fun motor.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/24v36v48v-BLDC-motor-controller-LCD-display-both-throttle-pedal-control-gears-/272023590764?hash=item3f55de976c:g8AAAOSwDNdVzuPm

The Kona shop did suggest that I could possibly go this route, but I think that they didn't really want to do it themselves. I'm certainly no electrical genius, but I think I could probably figure it out. Hopefully I'll hear back from Kona directly today and see if they have any thoughts.

Thanks for the ideas, keep 'em coming!

 

[dogman dan]

Ok, I wasn't so sure you weren't looking for validation in choosing to have more power.

Your motor is fine, but I have no idea how to make it run without the display, or how to hack it to run with another display. I suspect your shop is similar. Competent, but not electrical engineers.

One simple solution does come to mind, but you'd lose the display. Go to ebay or whatever, and select a new controller and throttle. Here's the key thing to look for.

Self learning, or self study wire. With such a controller, you match up the colors to the motor wires, connect the self study jumper plug, and run the bike. It will figure out the wires order for you, then you unplug the self study wire, and you are on your way. This figuring out the wiring to the new controller is the part your shop doesn't want to deal with. It's not hard, but occasionally it can be very time consuming. The self study will make that part easy. The rest of the wiring will not be hard to deal with either.

The bike won't be the same, it will be stripped down to the bare minimal features. Turns on and runs. But the cost will be about $50 max.

If you wish to spend more, add a stand alone cycleanalyst to your bike. That is the first class display for battery use, as well as speedo, odo, etc.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/24v36v48v250w350w-BLDC-motor-controller-for-scooter-moped-electric-bike-dualmode-/272023603412?hash=item3f55dec8d4:g:LFoAAOSwI-BWKJt4&vxp=mtr

There is one with self study feature. The one you found has a display, and will work. But you will have to do the trial and error thing to find out which motor and hall wire connect to which color to make your motor run. We can help with that, but it's sometimes easy, and sometimes not easy. Ask that vendor with the display if his controller has self study.

 

[docw009]

$18 Controller
http://www.ebay.com/itm/24V-36V-250W-6Mosfets-E-Bike-Scooter-Brushless-Hub-Motor-Controller-/221849793582?var=&hash=item793e4a3fa5

$27 Controller, 250 Watts. I've used that same PAS control module. No experience with the controller, but it does look compact. Wiring instructions are in the picture. Should work with your existing brake wiring.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/24V-36V-250W-6Mosfets-E-Bike-Motor-Controller-LED-meter-/321829295817?var=&hash=item76ebd392bc

 

[jakehrosenberg]

Thanks Dogman Dan & Docw009!
Honestly I'd love to upgrade, but $1000+ is not in the cards right now.

The seller confirms that the one that I found does have self learning, so I'm leaning that way. I'll get the bike back on Thursday and take a look at everything to make sure it looks like it'll work and bite the bullet. I'm sure that I'll be back asking more questions when it shows up in a month or so.

Kona confirms that they don't have parts and aren't supporting them anymore. Super frustrating as the bike is only 4 years old and cost something like $2600 new. My wife and I have 3 Kona's between us and they're great bikes, but this definitely leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I can't say if I'd buy another right now.

 

[dogman dan]

Part of Kona's problem, is there has actually been some big improvements in e bike components in the last 4 years. Kona no doubt kept some stock of spare parts, but no way they can get more now affordably.

And, I predict that buyers of a 2016 Kona will have the same problem by 2020. By then it will all be smart phone is your display.

 

[jakehrosenberg]

Thanks again for all the help everyone, unfortunately I'm in need of a little more. I got the new display / controller all wired up. It was pretty easy, red to red, blue to blue, etc. I did the self learning thing, I plugged it in first and the motor hummed but didn't move, unplugged it and plugged it back in and it runs in the correct direction. I unplugged the self learning and tried to ride but the assist isn't working right. It'll come on, but only for a brief moment, and only when I'm REALLY pushing hard on the pedals, like, as hard as I can. I went through some of the settings and everything seems about right to me, but still no go. Here's how I have it set, from the attached manual. Rim diameter, 26; Magnetic pole ratio, 45; Speed testing standard, 0 (tried both 1 & 0). Also, the speedometer and odometer aren't working either, possibly related? My best, totally uneducated, guess is that the hall sensor and or speed sensor on the bike aren't compatible with the controller. Any other guesses? It looks like the fine people in China will sell me the new sensors here http://www.aliexpress.com/store/508050 . Maybe I should pick up a throttle while I'm at it, that sounds a little more idiot proof.
View attachment model c display and controller user instruction.docx

 

[docw009]

Congrats on your venture into kit building,

Looks like your kit didn't come with its own pedal assist sensor. I assume the Kona had one. Was the connector for your old one compatible or did you have to splice it in?

You didn't mention if changing the PAS setting on the controller affected the response.

 

[jakehrosenberg]

Thanks Docw009! The kit did not come with a sensor, and I had to splice in the old one. None of the connectors were compatible.

Are you asking about what they call the speed testing standard? Either way, I don't think that changing any of the settings has had any effect, although it's a little hard to say because it works so intermittently as it is.

 

[jakehrosenberg]

You didn't mention if changing the PAS setting on the controller affected the response.

Ahh, now I see what you were asking. No, changing the PAS setting did not seem to have any effect.

 

[docw009]

It's possible that the Kona controller uses a different style of PAS or it's not properly connected or jarred off its mount .

The ones I've seen are three wires: 5 volt power, ground, and signal. If I were testing, I would try rotating the crank slowly (with drive wheel safely off ground so nothing bad happens if PAS activates), and the output should swing between +5 and 0 every time a magnet crosses the sensor.

Does the Kona run as well as it used to run with throttle only?

 

[jakehrosenberg]

It's possible that the Kona controller uses a different style of PAS or it's not properly connected or jarred off its mount .

The ones I've seen are three wires: 5 volt power, ground, and signal. If I were testing, I would try rotating the crank slowly (with drive wheel safely off ground so nothing bad happens if PAS activates), and the output should swing between +5 and 0 every time a magnet crosses the sensor.

Does the Kona run as well as it used to run with throttle only?

I'll give that a go, thanks!

The Kona never had a throttle, and while the new control/display has the ability to use one, it didn't come with one either. I'm thinking that installing one might be a good idea.

 

[jakehrosenberg]

So here's an update to thank everyone for the help, and in case anyone has a similar problem in the future.

I bought the speed sensor, PAS sensor, and throttle, all from this gentleman http://www.aliexpress.com/store/508050. He responded to questions immediately and was fairly helpful considering the language barrier.

I installed the throttle first, and that got me up and running! It works pretty well actually, although it's possible that a twist type throttle would have fit better. I had to put the throttle between the brake lever and the shifter on the right side, but it didn't fit well with the shifter so the shifter had to slide pretty far to the left, towards the center of the handlebars. Not ideal, but it works for now at least.

I then went to install the PAS sensor, but unfortunately it doesn't fit the bike. There isn't room between the crank and the frame for it. I haven't yet tried to install the speed sensor, and I'm not sure if it will help or not.

So the bike works now, but only under throttle, not with pedal assist. On flat ground the bike will drive under its own power, although not very fast. On hills it definitely requires help from the rider but I'm fine with that for now. If I didn't want to pedal, I'd ride the Vespa. If I put the throttle all the way down, it will remain on until I hit a brake, so I just pick a power level on the computer (1-5), put the throttle all the way down, and I get whatever assist I need up the hill. Honestly, it doesn't really seem any worse than the pedal assist, maybe even a little better (doesn't cut in and out).

All the wiring was pretty self explanatory (blue to blue, red to red, etc.), and I'm only into it for about $90 in parts, although I could have done it for much less if I had just gone with the throttle only from the beginning. If anyone has one of these Kone e-ute's die in the future, and the motor and battery are still good, this is a perfectly viable fix (contrary to what the Kona tech told me).

If someone's looking to do this fix in the future, feel free to contact me with any questions. I'll list the parts that I used below.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Electric-Bicycle-scooter-Thumb-Throttle-finger-shifter-standing-3-wheel-scooter-mtb-DIY-parts-free-shipping/32310106037.html

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Electric-bike-Ebike-scooter-controller-lcd-control-panel-24v36v48v-indicator-for-battery-lev-Scooter-parts-sensor/508050_32448255532.html

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/electric-bike-mtb-scooter-parts-PAS-sensor-1-1-power-sensor-hall-sensor-pulse-signal-free/32333837654.html
(didn't fit between crank and frame, not currently installed.)

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/external-speed-sensor-for-controller-of-electric-bike-scooter-mtb-conversion-parts-speed-testing-sensor/32376396090.html
(haven't installed yet, not sure if it's necessary.)