Lamination Materials

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bearing

10 kW
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Dec 23, 2008
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Electrical steel with higher max flux density than the common electrical steels. They are called Vacodur / Vacoflux, and saturates at 2,3T, compared to around (or less than) 2,0T for common electrical steels.

http://www.edn.com/design/automotive/4416249/2/The-sportier-side-of-electric-vehicles-
http://www.automotive-eetimes.com/en/the-sportier-side-of-electric-vehicles.html?cmp_id=71&news_id=222902525
http://www.vacuumschmelze.com/fileadmin/Medienbiliothek_2010/Downloads/HT/FachartikelSPORTIERSIDEELECTRICVEHICLES-engl-Druck_01.pdf
 
bearing said:
Electrical steel with higher max flux density than the common electrical steels. They are called Vacodur / Vacoflux, and saturates at 2,3T, compared to around (or less than) 2,0T for common electrical steels.

http://www.edn.com/design/automotive/4416249/2/The-sportier-side-of-electric-vehicles-
http://www.automotive-eetimes.com/en/the-sportier-side-of-electric-vehicles.html?cmp_id=71&news_id=222902525
http://www.vacuumschmelze.com/fileadmin/Medienbiliothek_2010/Downloads/HT/FachartikelSPORTIERSIDEELECTRICVEHICLES-engl-Druck_01.pdf
Click to expand...
Cool so where do we get it and for how much?
 
Arlo1 said:
Cool so where do we get it and for how much?
Click to expand...
In the US & Canada, you might find it easier to get Carpenter Hiperco.
Good luck with the price :mrgreen:

http://www.cartech.com/techarticles.aspx?id=1624

http://www.cartech.com/ssalloysprod.aspx?id=2360
 
I put the numbers from Vacodur 49 and Sura NO20 datasheets into FEMM, to compare with M-15 electrical steel. The motor model is an 80100, and was originally made by Biff.

[pre]Phase amps Torque - M-15 Torque - Sura NO20 Torque - Vacodur 49
20.00 A 2.85 Nm 2.82 Nm 3.37 Nm
40.00 A 5.47 Nm 5.50 Nm 6.54 Nm
60.00 A 7.94 Nm 8.06 Nm 9.41 Nm
80.00 A 10.19 Nm 10.36 Nm 12.08 Nm
100.00 A 12.11 Nm 12.31 Nm 14.59 Nm
120.00 A 13.64 Nm 13.89 Nm 16.83 Nm
140.00 A 14.92 Nm 15.17 Nm 18.48 Nm
160.00 A 16.05 Nm 16.30 Nm 19.90 Nm
180.00 A 17.07 Nm 17.34 Nm 21.15 Nm
200.00 A 18.00 Nm 18.32 Nm 22.33 Nm
220.00 A 18.84 Nm 19.25 Nm 23.47 Nm
240.00 A 19.58 Nm 20.12 Nm 24.55 Nm
260.00 A 20.24 Nm 20.91 Nm 25.57 Nm
280.00 A 20.82 Nm 21.61 Nm 26.48 Nm
300.00 A 21.35 Nm 22.23 Nm 27.26 Nm[/pre]
 
bearing said:
I put the numbers from Vacodur 49 and Sura NO20 datasheets into FEMM, to compare with M-15 electrical steel. The motor model is an 80100, and was originally made by Biff.

[pre]Phase amps Torque - M-15 Torque - Sura NO20 Torque - Vacodur 49
20.00 A 2.85 Nm 2.65 Nm 3.16 Nm
40.00 A 5.47 Nm 5.11 Nm 6.05 Nm
60.00 A 7.94 Nm 7.25 Nm 8.76 Nm
80.00 A 10.19 Nm 9.19 Nm 11.17 Nm
100.00 A 12.11 Nm 10.83 Nm 13.16 Nm
120.00 A 13.64 Nm 12.20 Nm 14.78 Nm
140.00 A 14.92 Nm 13.42 Nm 16.21 Nm
160.00 A 16.05 Nm 14.55 Nm 17.50 Nm
180.00 A 17.07 Nm 15.61 Nm 18.74 Nm
200.00 A 18.00 Nm 16.61 Nm 19.94 Nm
220.00 A 18.84 Nm 17.49 Nm 21.09 Nm
240.00 A 19.58 Nm 18.28 Nm 22.12 Nm
260.00 A 20.24 Nm 18.94 Nm 22.94 Nm
280.00 A 20.82 Nm 19.53 Nm 23.69 Nm
300.00 A 21.35 Nm 20.09 Nm 24.41 Nm[/pre]
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Looking at the PNG it should hit around 26nm at 400nm It looks like 350-400 would be a max.
That's pretty crazy. You meen 80-100 as in the motor so many people got from tunrigy and the small 7kw colossus? Because Im only getting ~20-25 nm at 300 phase amps on the big colossus... This of course is rear wheel and with my inefficient DIY controller which I will be working on some more soon.
 
I guess this shows that you need to adjust the core dimensions, if you want any significant practical gains.....

The cost of the Vacodur lamination material is probably more than three times the cost of the Sura.
 
The model of the 80100 shows 2.2-2.3T in the teeth with Vacodur 49, and 1.8-1.9T in the teeth with Sura NO20. So I don't think the model needs to be changed. The ratio between teeth flux is 1.2, which is the same as the ratio between torques. But if you think about the difference in terms of heat in windings at constant torque, the ratio is 1.44. EDIT: and thats at low currents. You can see in the table that the ratio of winding heat gets higher the more the iron saturates.

In the articles in my links, they compared Vacodur to a steel which saturates at 1.5-1.6T. So the ratio of torque is 1.5 in that case. And the difference in winding heat at constant torque starts at 2.25.

EDIT: Another thing. VACUUMSCHMELZE says they are able to stack 0.1mm laminations with 98% stacking factor.
http://www.vacuumschmelze.com/fileadmin/Medienbiliothek_2010/Downloads/HT/VAC%20Laminations%20%20Assemblies%20for%20Motor%20%26%20Generator%20Applications.pdf
 

Attachments

  • flux_vacodur.PNG
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neat, how do these materials compare to metal glass or additive manufactured stator lams?
 
bearing said:
EDIT: Another thing. VACUUMSCHMELZE says they are able to stack 0.1mm laminations with 98% stacking factor.http://www.vacuumschmelze.com/fileadmin/Medienbiliothek_2010/Downloads/HT/VAC%20Laminations%20%20Assemblies%20for%20Motor%20%26%20Generator%20Applications.pdf
Click to expand...
That's useful to know...
 
Arlo1 said:
Looking at the PNG it should hit around 26nm at 400nm It looks like 350-400 would be a max.
That's pretty crazy. You meen 80-100 as in the motor so many people got from tunrigy and the small 7kw colossus? Because Im only getting ~20-25 nm at 300 phase amps on the big colossus... This of course is rear wheel and with my inefficient DIY controller which I will be working on some more soon.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's pretty sick with this little motor, which only has about 1,3kg of active material. But at 400A, it would make like 5-10kW of heat. So not possible to run for more than a second.
 
That's some material! If I had a phat wallet I'd like to try it for back iron in AF but it would likely be overkill and FEMM tends to play down the differences for that particular use. Seems ideal for cores though. 8)

Good find, KF
 
How about some simulations of low loss and high permeability materials?
I was thinking of Mumetall, Ultraperm or Recovac!!!
Low Loss materials.GIF
Using this stuff with adapted teeth size could perhaps lower the number of turns needed for a certain RPM goal.
As it has low losses it should translate into lower no-load current as well.
And less turns and decreased no-load means higher efficiency.

Expensive but it could be worth it if the efficiency increase is high enough.
http://www.vacuumschmelze.com/fileadmin/docroot/medialib/documents/broschueren/htbrosch/Pb-pht-1.pdf
 
I found an error in the simulations, so I have corrected the table in post #4. The difference with cobalt iron is bigger now, and Sura is better/even with M-15.
 
Also: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=cYaQAOCuygcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=ferromagnetic&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MMxgUv6DD-X30gWP8YDADw&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=ferromagnetic&f=false
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/automobiles/company-hopes-to-change-small-electric-vehicles-with-cheaper-magnetic-technology.html?_r=0

But Mr. Caamano said the use of amorphous metals, which have unique microstructures, makes for a power-dense, low-cost compact motor and a smaller array of lithium batteries.
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Miles said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/automobiles/company-hopes-to-change-small-electric-vehicles-with-cheaper-magnetic-technology.html?_r=0

But Mr. Caamano said the use of amorphous metals, which have unique microstructures, makes for a power-dense, low-cost compact motor and a smaller array of lithium batteries.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Did you see his motor? Enter _caamano_ into google patent search.
 
https://www.google.com/patents/US6218760

http://www.google.com/patents/US7030534

http://www.google.com/patents/US7358639

https://www.google.com/patents/WO2003065543A1?cl=en

http://www.google.com/patents/US6603237

http://www.google.com/patents/US6879080
 
major said:
Did you see his motor? Enter _caamano_ into google patent search.
Click to expand...
Not yet. I just dumped the link here because of the reference to amorphous metal.

Precious little detail here: http://www.kldenergy.com/onedrive/

http://chargedevs.com/features/onedrive-of-a-kind-kld-energys-new-propulsion-system/
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-57599761-48/kld-updates-electric-motor-for-21st-century-cars/
http://blogs.automotive.com/kld-brings-electric-city-car-concept-to-u-s-with-ultra-efficient-new-motor-design-154197.html
 
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