Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[cwah]

Cross: the phase wires come out before the axle touches the dropouts, kind of like how a crystalyte is set up. I don't know how easy modifying the phase wires from inside the hub would be. I found that after my test ride at 3000w, the section of original phase wires i'd left ( about 2 inches ) wasn't even hot or warm to the touch.

[youtube]16GJj8mfYfs[/youtube]

Dudes, this motor is the real deal. I just pushed it up the 8% grade test hill again a few times on 65A batt, 173A phase. ( about 3000W ) The 12FET 3077 was extremely hot at the end of this run. The motor was barely warm to the touch, i was amazed. I was running it at around 3000W continuous and it barely flinched.

I hit 38mph on a slight ~-0.25% grade in 100% mode, and 44mph up that ~0.25% grade in 120% mode.

I would compare this to my magic pie, except i don't know the limits of the motor just yet because the controller can barely hang. I would say that i get more power per watt inputted for certain than the magic pie.

This motor would be a crapton of fun if you were to order it up with a stator that had an additional turn on it and ran it at 72v.

I recognise the sound of the motor, I have the 1000W version. I tried it with a sine wave controller and it becomes completely silent. It's then a breeze to ride

 

[crossbreak]

which sinewave controller do you use? Kelly KBS-X?

Reading the other two threads, i see that there shall be different windings? From their specs i read

731rpm/50.55V = 14.4kV for the 1000W version (30mm stator? )
602rpm/48.24V = 12.5 kV for the 1500W version (35mm stator?)

which makes me think they must be the same wind, since 14.4kV /35*30 ~= 12.5kV
the 1500W is just a bit wider and though slower for the same number of turns.

neptronix found his 35mm one to be 13.16kv which makes me wonder a bit what went wrong here.. i must say i trust this number more than the graphs from the vendor.. so it would only be 11.5kV for the 40mm one...which makes it a lot less desirable :/

I'd like a 35mm motor with one less turn to get the same/ bit higher kV than the 30mm one which seems to go 40mph@48V

 

[diggler]

I sent an email asking leafmotor about getting a stator with another turn on it.. i just have to know how she rolls on 72v!

Nice! What turn are you getting?
Assuming you got, (what they call the 731rmp, actual 645 in your test,) is a 3 turn. (I cant tell the turn from the pic you've shown)
This is what I got out of them when asking about turn options, and temp sensor. (They said they'd install temp sensor for free)

Yes,we can make a temp sensor inside motor.

* about max 600rpm,500rpm,400rpm,300rpm,200rpm..We also can make it.

I asked them what they recommended for a fat tire 28" OD tire, and they said the 500rpm one.
I'm thinking you got a 3 turn the 600rpm is a 4 turn and the 500rpm is a 5 or 6 turn?
What do you think?
I hope you get the 500 rpm one. Have them put a temp sensor in it for you!

 

[cwah]

which sinewave controller do you use? Kelly KBS-X?

Reading the other two threads, i see that there shall be different windings? From their specs i read

731rpm/50.55V = 14.4kV for the 1000W version (35mm stator? )
602rpm/48.24V = 12.5 kV for the 1500W version (40mm stator?)

which makes me think the must be the same wind, since 14.4kV /40*35 ~= 12.5kV
the 1500W is just a bit wider and though slower for the same number of turns.

neptronix found his 35mm one to be 13.16kv which makes me wonder a bit what went wrong here.. i must say i trust this number more than the graphs from the vendor.. so it would only be 11.5kW for the 40mm one...which makes it a lot less desirable :/

I'd like a 40mm motor with one less turn to get the same/ bit higher kV than the 35mm one which seems to go 40mph@48V

I used this one:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=62936

But I'd like to get a smaller one

 

[neptronix]

Okay, i just did some watts per speed tests on flat ground ( without pedaling ) and was very impressed with what i saw. The wattage at low speeds was similar to what i see on small geared hub motors of high efficiency.

[youtube]HvaqMXdixaM[/youtube]

12mph = average about 100w
20mph = average about 350w
25mph = average about 500w
30mph = average about 900-1000w
37mph = about ~1650w ( not really confirmed in this video as she was still accelerating a bit )

One thing that amazed me is that i was pedaling lightly up a very slight incline at about 22mph and i saw a 250w average load. This is better than the most efficient geared motor i've played with ( ebikes.ca's outrider motor ).

I did a mile or two of continuous 38-44mph riding, plus scaling a 3 mile 3% grade at 100% speed which loaded the bike to 3000w nonstop... the controller was too hot to touch, and i had finally got the motor to be warm, but not hot.

I think the spec sheet that i posted in the first page of this thread is pretty accurate then. At 3000w continuous, the motor drops to 81% efficiency and makes about 500w of continuous heat. At 2000w continuous ( 88% efficiency ), the motor would be making ~250w of continuous heat according to their sheet. 250w of continuous heat sounds like something that could be sustained indefinitely in a motor this size.

So.. without a dyno of my own running this motor for 24 hours at 2000w, i can't tell you that this is a 2000W continuous motor with 100% certainty, but i'd say we're within +/- 100W of that figure with this motor.

I'm really glad i plunked the cash down for this motor... it's a keeper for sure

 

[neptronix]

Just an FYI, i initially mounted a 5 speed freewheel to this motor because i assumed that it would not take a 7 speed. It takes a 6 speed cluster no problem.. if you want to use a 7 speed, you need an additional ~3mm of spacing.

The only problem is that with a 7 speed shimano megarange, shifting into the gear closest to the motor casing results in my derailleur contacting the motor case. Do i need that last 34t gear to pedal this bike though? hell no. I'm okay with that.

The axle is 14mm wide, so you can use a 14mm car oil pan drain plug washer to gain that additional space, no problem. Easily found on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...0.X14mm+washer.TRS0&_nkw=14mm+washer&_sacat=0

 

[crossbreak]

you have the 35mm stator, so for the 40mm one we hopefully wont need 8mm of washers for 7speed :?

looks like i want the 35mm one then. higher KV and possible to use 7speed in a 135mm dropout. same as with the Crystalyte HS3540 and HS4080

 

[neptronix]

I don't see a mythical 40mm version of this motor for sale.. that'd be cool though..

As for winding info, i got this back in an email from them:
"We could send you an invoice via Paypal if you need winding rotor.
*Now our 1500w is 16*4 turn winding rotor.If you need 100rpm slower,we can use 13*5 turn."

I'm not 100% sure if this means that the default motor is a 16 x 4 winding, or will be a 16 x 4 winding in the future.
I asked, but haven't got a reply. The entire company is probably on a giant chinese new year's drunken bender for the week, i guess.

 

[crossbreak]

ups i read the ring width, not the stator width which is 5mm less. 40mm stator width would be cool anymway good to now you actually test the exact motor i'm after

 

[neptronix]

Are you plotting on doing some kind of mid drive thing?

 

[neptronix]

I've got a plan.
I want a very slightly lower speed - 35-36mph cruising instead of ~38mph cruising.

I think i'll run this motor in a 24" wheel. It should drop the top speed to about 36mph and increase the torque about 10ft-lb more... these calculations are based on the figures i'm seeing in the ebikes.ca simulator under the HS3548, which appears to be the closest motor, in terms of power and speed, to this motor.

The motor is already very fast on 65A. Already does wheelies from a stall.. the 24" wheel will make it perfect though I'll just tune down the phase amps a little bit and enjoy a broader, stronger range of torque from this bad boy.

I'm thinking that i have the 16*4 wind, and the 13*5 winding ( ask for it via email ) is more like an HS3540, but i am going to let you guys be the guinea pig on that winding for 26"-29" usage. Step up to the plate, guys..

 

[diggler]

:lol: You callin me out!?
I wish, but funds are strapped now after buying a bunch of stuff for a spot welder and all the bit's and bobs for the mxus build.
(like 200+ a couple days ago for powerpole stuffs)
I'm still jonsen for two of the "500rpm" ones already laced to fat rims with 4mm wires and a temp sensor for $780 shipped.
Till I get those I'll just have to live vicariously though you.

But anyway.
Funny how the winding hasn't been nailed down yet.
It didn't have it written down on the stator?
Given that you tested it to be 645rpm you probably did get a 4 turn.
So do you think they make a 3 turn "731rpm" motor or do you think that rpm is just fluff?

 

[neptronix]

Ran the motor up a 5% constant grade for about 4 miles with the controller mounted on the front. Wasn't pedaling. Controller didn't get hot ( thanks, air cooling ), speed was around 32mph continuous.. motor barely cold-warm ( though it's 50f outside ), the 15ah battery ( which was sagging from 48v to 44v ) was warmer than the motor, lol.

Not bad at all.

diggler, i'm not callin' ya out. I think one 500-554rpm in a fatbike tire would be plenty.
No, the winding is not written down on the stator.

I don't know if they make a 3 turn motor, but that would be silly. Not even suitable for a 20" wheel. This motor is more ideal for a 20" wheel already.

:lol: You callin me out!?
I wish, but funds are strapped now after buying a bunch of stuff for a spot welder and all the bit's and bobs for the mxus build.
(like 200+ a couple days ago for powerpole stuffs)
I'm still jonsen for two of the "500rpm" ones already laced to fat rims with 4mm wires and a temp sensor for $780 shipped.
Till I get those I'll just have to live vicariously though you.

But anyway.
Funny how the winding hasn't been nailed down yet.
It didn't have it written down on the stator?
Given that you tested it to be 645rpm you probably did get a 4 turn.
So do you think they make a 3 turn "731rpm" motor or do you think that rpm is just fluff?

 

[SprocketLocket]

Nepi, I follow all your projects... Interested: do you think a slow-wound (300-rev/minute) version of this motor would have the same or more torque as a MAC 12-turn? Also, this motor is 16 pounds, whereas a MAC is 9 or 10 pounds, so, outside the obtuse power handling the Leaf Blower has, or I mean if you're accepting the MAC's power handling ability as a given maximum for the scenario, would the MAC be more desirable (acceleration/low-end torque in particular, performance/weight, etc)? With the MAC you have to worry about breaking clutches or gears, or burning if you dump too much energy. It would be nice to not have to worry about that. But I wonder how low-end torque would suffer, and 9-10 pounds vs 16 pounds has got to make a difference in handling? If one of these could beat a MAC in low-speed power, and meet or exceed its speed, while increasing efficiency and reliability, that could outweigh the extra weight, cogging characteristics, and inferior stealthiness for a lot of people. Your estimation comparison would be valued here.

Also, wouldn't you be able to see how many turns this motor uses, because you opened it up and could see how many physical winds there are? I thought a "turn" is how many times that copper wire gets coiled around each position.


So right now we mainly have a max RPM rating to go on to gauge these winds.
I did some calculations for a tire which would be about the size of a a slightly-larger-than-26 tire, like a fat-tire 26 or 27.5/650b. Convert to km/h as needed.

Obviously, the lower the top theoretical speed, the higher the torque. The question is "how high".
If my calculations are correct, the 300rev would be the most interesting to me. Perhaps lots of low-end torque/hill climbing/takeoff, with decent-enough top speed tradeoff. Also, the 200rev would be Euro-legal with their ridiculous speed limit below the limit of normal bike pedaling. This will also give an idea of how speeds would change for an extra inch of diameter.

27-inch diameter tire:
200rev = 15.8mph
300rev = 23.7mph
400rev = 31.6mph
500rev = 39.5mph
600rev = 47.4mph

28-inch diameter tire:
200rev = 16.6 mph
300rev = 25 mph
400rev = 33.2 mph
500rev = 41.6 mph
600rev = 50 mph

Formula example:
Circumference = Pi x Diameter
27 inches diameter x 3.14 = 84 inches circumference.
200 revs/min x 60min = 12000 rev/hour x 84 inches/rev = 100800 inches/hour = 15.8 miles/hour


I'm sorry, I also didn't follow what that "kV" standard meant; I'd appreciate a point to an explanation or tutorial, as I wouldn't even know what it is to search for. Same for the meaning & significance of "no load", though that would be easier for me to look up if I had time.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Kv is an engineering term, for "Konstant velocity". Its German, from the 1800's. A rough but useful explanation is that a motors' Kv is how many unloaded RPM's it will spin per volt that is applied. Often confused with kilovolt/kV = 1000 volts.

Loaded / unloaded = When a wheel is spinning in the air, that would be its unloaded RPMs / speed. Once you put on a rider and add cargo plus wind resistance, it is not uncommon for the "loaded" speed to be 10% slower (or more). Since rider weight, cargo weight, and steepness of hill vary from one person to the next....the "unloaded" motor speed is the most useful with which to compare motors (although it is recognized as being "not perfect").

There is also a "Ke" and a "Kt" when studying motors. http://www.solarbotics.net/starting/200111_dcmotor/200111_dcmotor4.html. I am still learning, and although I hope to be helpful, I am no authority on this...

 

[neptronix]

Nepi, I follow all your projects... Interested: do you think a slow-wound (300-rev/minute) version of this motor would have the same or more torque as a MAC 12-turn?

Oh, for sure. You may have to put a little more power in from a stall, but overall it should have dramatically more torque in the mid-band, and comparable or greater torque at the low end. The MAC motors tend to have a crapton of power in the low-mid band no matter what ( thanks, high pole count! ), but DD motors typically have more gusto in the mid-band. I noticed that the more i push the phase amp ratio from ~2.4:1 ( what i run MACs on ) to 3:1 and beyond, the more torque i get. I actually had to tune the phase ratio a bit down because i was getting unwanted power wheelies.

Also, this motor is 16 pounds, whereas a MAC is 9 or 10 pounds, so, outside the obtuse power handling the Leaf Blower has, or I mean if you're accepting the MAC's power handling ability as a given maximum for the scenario, would the MAC be more desirable (acceleration/low-end torque in particular, performance/weight, etc)?

No way. I designed this bike to do 40mph continuously, and this motor delivers. The MAC would melt after doing 35mph continuous for a long period of time, or simply at very high speeds during hill climbing at 1,600w peak. I can maintain 10mph faster going up 5-10% grades than i did with the MAC, and i'm running ~3,000w peak and the motor gets warm but not hot after many miles of that.. The motors simply aren't comparable. A more apt comparison would be their 30mm wide stator 1000W version, which is most likely also underrated. The 30mm wide motor might actually be stronger than a MAC.

Example: look at the bottom of the spec sheet here. At 1,200w, that motor is only shedding ~180w and seeing 85% efficiency.
You can certainly shed 180w continuously with a motor of this size. Safe to call it a 1,200w continuous capable motor, no?

With the MAC you have to worry about breaking clutches or gears, or burning if you dump too much energy. It would be nice to not have to worry about that. But I wonder how low-end torque would suffer, and 9-10 pounds vs 16 pounds has got to make a difference in handling? If one of these could beat a MAC in low-speed power, and meet or exceed its speed, while increasing efficiency and reliability, that could outweigh the extra weight, cogging characteristics, and inferior stealthiness for a lot of people. Your estimation comparison would be valued here.

With moderate power levels ( short 2000w peaks at best on an 8T MAC ), the MAC is a super reliable motor and still pumps out a fantastic power to weight ratio compared to the competition. If i didn't need to do 40mph and didn't live around gnarly, massive, long hills.. i would still be using it, for sure. It worked better for me when i lived in an area with 30mph speed limits and moderate hills.. but i'm over here in what is basically a high speed version of San Francisco, terrain-wise.

There is certainly a difference in handling on a dual suspension bike. 16lbs of unsprung weight does negatively effect the damping of the rear, but the effect isn't too terrible. I still confidently ride over these potholed, cracked mountain state roads, drop off curbs etc with confidence.. just not as much comfort

Also, wouldn't you be able to see how many turns this motor uses, because you opened it up and could see how many physical winds there are? I thought a "turn" is how many times that copper wire gets coiled around each position.

I'd think that i can find that out if i knew more about motor construction and was willing to cut the motor windings apart and basically trash the motor.

Obviously, the lower the top theoretical speed, the higher the torque. The question is "how high".
If my calculations are correct, the 300rev would be the most interesting to me. Perhaps lots of low-end torque/hill climbing/takeoff, with decent-enough top speed tradeoff. Also, the 200rev would be Euro-legal with their ridiculous speed limit below the limit of normal bike pedaling. This will also give an idea of how speeds would change for an extra inch of diameter.

I have no problem with low end torque, hill climbing, and takeoff with this stupidly high kV winding.. i know that one additional turn on the stator + running 72v would take this motor from 'holy crap, that's fast' to 'that's so fast, i crapped'.. :lol:

I'm sorry, I also didn't follow what that "kV" standard meant; I'd appreciate a point to an explanation or tutorial, as I wouldn't even know what it is to search for. Same for the meaning & significance of "no load", though that would be easier for me to look up if I had time.

spinningmag got the kv question nailed down, so i'll tell you about the no-load then. The RPM that the wheel spins ( in the air with no load on it ) gives you the kV figure. Divide the current battery voltage by rpm, boom. Take 80% of that RPM that you got and you will approximately have the loaded speed. Then do the wheel math to get the mph per volt.

 

[cwah]

Hello sorry to hi jack the thread I'm trying to repair my small leafbike motor who has shorted phase wires:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=67282

As you've already opened your motor could you advise please?

Thank you so much

 

[neptronix]

Something interesting about this motor..
The DD hub drag must be really low.

I was able to pedal along at 20mph w/o using the motor for quite a while.

There is still some drag, but it's not so bad, really. So if you run out of a battery, it's not a total boat anchor like most DDs.

 

[teslanv]

Could that be because of the low-resistance winding???

 

[spinningmagnets]

On Justins video where he talks about some very in-depth testing on motor design...he found that when the magnets were right next to each other, the power density was slightly better, but...when there was a little space between them, there was less drag (meaning more efficiency)

Better efficiency (even if its just a small amount) is always good. there is less heat for the same performance, and also the battery lasts for a little more range.

 

[neptronix]

I think it has more to do with iron losses from the laminations.

The motor does spin in the air exceptionally well, compared to motors like the old 28mm 9C. The magic pie is probably the worst cogger i've encountered.. it has more poles than your usual 9C-type design + 0.5mm lams.

Teslanv, if you compared the drag of a mxus v1 ( 0.5mm ) to a mxus v2 ( 0.35-0.33mm ), you will probably notice a difference.

If you guys are interested, i have done a couple spinup/spindown tests on various motors to determine drag. I could do that to this motor if you like.

 

[SprocketLocket]

Nepi and SpinningMagnets, thank you for your excellent and thoughtful answers! Very appreciated.

Now I've got a question about customization of these motors. Obviously you're not a vendor, but since you have investigated already and have purchased, you may know. Because the product page gives no hints as to customizations (it doesn't even invite you to ask), but in emails posted here, the vendor made it sound like they can make a one-off of just about any modification, while still managing to be vague (for instance, we still don't know how to ask for motor winds using anything other than a rated no-load/kV RPM .

You may not know, but someone may, and since interest was already raised by someone else here: what about wide axles, say for fat bikes. Many fatbikes these days have 190mm dropouts, so I'm wondering if it's known if there's a suitable wide axle width. Sounds like wide-stator DD motors like this would actually do better with more width to play around width. The 135mm dropout width, in my research, seemed to be the biggest design challenge.

And to fully come around to Fat Bike kits, manufacturers are going to have to start making 32-hole hubs, as virtually every fatbike I've seen for sale on the net is 32H. The big exception is the Mongoose models. Mongoose's 36-spoke thing makes me almost want to abandon this Quixotic thing of trying to put a square peg in a round hole, er, a hub motor in a fatbike, and just say F it, I'm spending $217 on an overly-heavy, entry-level bike where I assume almost every component needs to be replaced or worked on. I can work around the hole-cout by getting a rim and lacing it. It's the axle I'm most-concerned about. (And one of the easiest things for the mfr to change).

Oh, and speaking of which, Nepi how did you do with using a disk brake on this? (I assume that's what you're using.) Having not actually done a DIY kit yet, I'm trying to take it all in.

I for one will say I found cwah's sinewave controller as very interesting (cwah, if there's a thread where you've discussed it, pleases let me know). That's the first decent/I'll say "normal"-looking, low-cost sinewave controller I've seen. I hope this becomes a trend. For me, the visual obviousness of this motor is one of its biggest downsides. But at least I could sneak up on people. You know what, I nearly did that recently with my little massmarket hubmotor bike. 2 neighbors twere alking near the road. The one with his back turned to me, never would've known I was there, had the other guy not seen me coming, and nodded in my direction once I passed, to get his friend to 'check this guy out'. Enjoying the silence is the #1 appeal of e-bikes for me, over combustion.

 

[neptronix]

Now I've got a question about customization of these motors. Obviously you're not a vendor, but since you have investigated already and have purchased, you may know. Because the product page gives no hints as to customizations (it doesn't even invite you to ask), but in emails posted here, the vendor made it sound like they can make a one-off of just about any modification, while still managing to be vague (for instance, we still don't know how to ask for motor winds using anything other than a rated no-load/kV RPM .

You just have to email them. ask for a '13*5 turn' motor that is 100rpm slower than the regular wind.

Yes, we don't have a lot of experience with this vendor. They don't speak the best english. But i guarantee you that it is worth your time to pursue this motor in any way you can find it.

The axle has some width on it, but it is probably 190mm wide in total or less. That won't work. You need a motor that is very wide already. Big problem with a fatbike.

Don't hate on walmart bike too much, a few people run them on the forum and i haven't heard of any problems. For $219, you've got a cheap start to a build anyway.

Oh, and speaking of which, Nepi how did you do with using a disk brake on this? (I assume that's what you're using.) Having not actually done a DIY kit yet, I'm trying to take it all in.

I have no rear brake. I just use 1500w worth of regen in the rear and a big 203mm shimano ice tech disc up front. I would like a little more braking power, but it's enough to confidently stop me from high speeds.

Sine wave controllers helping you be stealthy? i dunno.. when you have a motor you can regularly hit 40-45mph on and maintain those speeds for quite a while.. there's nothing stealthy about what you're doing, lol. So i don't bother. I say loud stators save lives..

 

[neptronix]

As for passing people on the street slowly, The motor has a real notable growl at low rpm, so i cut the motor power, i shift up and pedal at low speeds past people. Easy to do on this bike, because the drag of the motor is very low, and it's no problem to pedal w/o power.

And well, i like hearing the motor, darnit. Just a personal preference.

 

[crossbreak]

A 32*2 winding should be ~25kV then. Perfect for a 2:1 gearing in a mid mount. Should be good for 200A at 48V if vented well.