Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[Jabotical]

So you guys who have been so considerate and helpful in speccing and theory, perhaps you can assist with one more thing: I can't get the leafbike 1500w motor to fit all the way into both dropouts!

I've got a Trek 820 which as far as I know has standard 135mm rear dropouts. I put a 6-gear freewheel on the motor to begin with because I'd heard space could be a little tight (maybe I didn't seat it in well enough somehow?). I left one of the washers that come with the motor on each side of the motor axles (so the forks will rest outside them), because I understand that they help prevent the motor from binding against the freewheel or other side. (if I'm wrong there please tell me!). The axle deal of the motor will fit down into one dropout or the other all the way (so the width must be ok), but not both simultaneously. I've tried putting pressure outward in case it was just being squeezed between those forks, and maybe I haven't pressed out enough, but it doesn't look like there's no clearance there.

I spent ages wrestling with it, adjusting the motor angle with pliers, shoving and shaking it, whacking it down with a rubber mallet -- no matter what I did I couldn't get both sides of the motor to rest at the same time in the dropouts any further in than what you see in the pictures.



I really have very little experience working on my own bike (this project was going to be my motivation to learn), so it would not surprise me if I were missing something obvious. Any advice from ye seasoned pros?? I was so close to riding this thing I could taste it, but I'm completely stumped here. Thanks much!

 

[GmagNeato]

So you guys who have been so considerate and helpful in speccing and theory, perhaps you can assist with one more thing: I can't get the leafbike 1500w motor to fit all the way into both dropouts!

I've got a Trek 820 which as far as I know has standard 135mm rear dropouts. I put a 6-gear freewheel on the motor to begin with because I'd heard space could be a little tight (maybe I didn't seat it in well enough somehow?). I left one of the washers that come with the motor on each side of the motor axles (so the forks will rest outside them), because I understand that they help prevent the motor from binding against the freewheel or other side. (if I'm wrong there please tell me!). The axle deal of the motor will fit down into one dropout or the other all the way (so the width must be ok), but not both simultaneously. I've tried putting pressure outward in case it was just being squeezed between those forks, and maybe I haven't pressed out enough, but it doesn't look like there's no clearance there.

I spent ages wrestling with it, adjusting the motor angle with pliers, shoving and shaking it, whacking it down with a rubber mallet -- no matter what I did I couldn't get both sides of the motor to rest at the same time in the dropouts any further in than what you see in the pictures.
View attachment 1


I really have very little experience working on my own bike (this project was going to be my motivation to learn), so it would not surprise me if I were missing something obvious. Any advice from ye seasoned pros?? I was so close to riding this thing I could taste it, but I'm completely stumped here. Thanks much!

I would start by removing the chain and deraileur so you can see what you're working with better and nothing is in the way but the frame. You can put these back on after the motor is installed.

 

[spinningmagnets]

You will need to file a small amount of metal out of the frame drop-outs, it won't take much (it's already almost there). With a Leafbike motor, you wouldn't go the the expense and weight of this size if you were only going to run 1200W, and these motors really shine at 2500W+

For 2500W+ you will need TWO sturdy torque-arms, or torque-plates. Since you will NEED these, removing a small amount of metal from the drop-outs will not make the frame unsafe.

 

[neptronix]

Yeah, you're going to have to file a little.
I literally had to hammer the motor into my frame. I liked it!

The axle is just a hair thicker than most hubs' 14mm axles are. The upside is that fitment with the ebikes.ca's torque arms is very snug. Most motor axles have a little wobble, these don't.

Once you get it in, it's gonna stay in there pretty good.. :lol:

 

[Swe]

I first opened up the wrong side of the motor when I was going to change the temp sensor. I then saw this fault in the motor. Do you think this can cause problems? Should I do something about it? Press it back and "glue" it with something or just leave it there?

I have problems running the motor with my Adaptto, cant get the motor to speed up (wrote about it in the adaptto thread below), but not sure this motor fault is the reason or just tuning problems with the adaptto.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61183&start=3725#p1204214

 

[Swe]

Also one more thing. After the first time I removed the wrong side cover and put it back again I have this whining sound when the motor turns on pretty low speeds. If I turn it very slow it is silent and if I run it faster (like pedal the bike fast) it is silent. I took the cover off again (the bearings follows the same time) and then put i back on again and test turned the axle and there was no sound at all. Then after putting it on the bike the sound was back again and still is after I take the wheel off. Maybe the dropouts on the bike push the bearings a little causing the sound to start only after putting it on the bike? (I stretch the frame some mm so there is a pushing force)

I got the idea now (to test tonight) that maybe I need to slam in the bearings more and test one more time because last time I just pushed on the side cover. But are there anything else I could do? Put grease on the axle? Sounds like the rubber on the bearing is making the sound against the axle. Change bearing? (But in some conditions it seems to be silent so maybe not neccesary).

Edit: I guess I was thinking wrong about grease on the axle, the bearing should på solid to the axle and not move there. So what can the sound be then?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx7RhPovcLI

[youtube]nx7RhPovcLI[/youtube]

 

[Jabotical]

Thanks Gmag, spinningmag, neptronix! I'd thought about dremeling the dropouts, but filing was a much better idea for removing such a tiny amount of material (and one wants a light touch in this sort of operation). Mainly I'd been worried I was doing something wrong in the installation/missing something. It also hadn't occurred to me that the pair of torque arms I was going to add meant I didn't have to worry so much about the dropouts. (and you're right Gmag, taking off the chain and derailleur makes operating on it easier)

I got everything completed late last night, and took a midnight ride around my neighborhood. My goodness that is fun. Such power, such acceleration... must not let it go to my head. And mine is a relatively low-powered system compared to what a lot of people here seem to be rocking... you guys are insane. I love it! I tended to lose my nerve when I approached around the mid-20 mph's, but I expect it'll be different in the daylight, as I get more used to it. Right now I can't imagine wanting more top speed or acceleration. And I'm delighted by how well it pedals without power, which was a lot of what I hoped I'd get by springing for the leafbikes motor. Also regenerative braking makes me smile (zero wear and tear on rims/pads + a little bonus juice!) Plus it's much quieter than I'd feared, from all the current obsessive talk of sine wave controllers.

Seriously though, you're a swell bunch of folks, and I hope I can be as helpful to someone at some point as you've been to me in this process. I'm so glad I didn't buy some anemic commerically-produced ebike like I was initially considering.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Get a 3-way switch, because you KNOW you're going to be loaning this bike out for friends to test ride. Start them in "valet mode" so they have a few seconds to get used to the throttle and braking, Then "friend mode" to sample the ebike grin...then for a select few...set the 3-way switch to "insane mode" (as long as they are wearing a helmet and gloves, and have signed a liability waiver)

The addiction is real...

 

[Swe]

i was wrong again regarding bearing and axle. The axel is moving inside the bearing...
I took off the cover again, put some grease on it and slammed it back with a hammer on a plastic tube. Now the sound is gone! For now atleast. Dont know if the bearing was sitting better this time or if it was the the grease, or if the sound will come back.


But please still say something about the broken part in the motor! What to do?

 

[Jabotical]

Get a 3-way switch, because you KNOW you're going to be loaning this bike out for friends to test ride. Start them in "valet mode" so they have a few seconds to get used to the throttle and braking, Then "friend mode" to sample the ebike grin...then for a select few...set the 3-way switch to "insane mode" (as long as they are wearing a helmet and gloves, and have signed a liability waiver)

The addiction is real...

Hey, that's a good idea! Because yes, I've already got friends and coworkers wanting to take a ride (though they tend to add "when it's not so hot" -- which is reasonable, since I'm in Phoenix). I've biked to work the last couple days, which is something I never could have done in the summer on a regular bike. Of course, the first day I got a rear flat tire on the way home. I'd imagined a new rider should get some sort of grace period, but such is life. Put an extra thick tube with slime in it on there, and ordered a CST Cyclops tire to shield it a little better and for awesomeness (Hopefully it will fit in my frame)

The addiction is real. Already thinking I need a better battery pack. My Panasonic NCRB 4p one is crapping out on me (overheating?) and only providing ~15 amps after 20-30 minutes. I've got my current limit set to 26 A right now, but apparently even that is too much for it, at least in the summer heat here. I must have speed! (and I'm probably shortening its lifespan anyway by driving it at/past its limit like this).

---
Swe, I feel your pain. I wish I could give you the sort of helpful advice people have been giving me, but apparently it's not an area people here know much about. If the sound is gone, and you don't notice performance degradation, I personally would tend not to worry about it too much. Admittedly I might eventually try to find the right kind of glue and reattach the loose piece, if that seems reasonable...

 

[Swe]

---
Swe, I feel your pain. I wish I could give you the sort of helpful advice people have been giving me, but apparently it's not an area people here know much about. If the sound is gone, and you don't notice performance degradation, I personally would tend not to worry about it too much. Admittedly I might eventually try to find the right kind of glue and reattach the loose piece, if that seems reasonable...

Thanks for input. When I wrote about it I had problems setting it up with my adaptto but now it suddenly work. I have nothing to compare with so cant say how it perform but was running fine with my temporary 36V ~750W max. Around 55km/h with pedal help but not so strong uphills (will have stronger battery later).

So for now it is okay. I guess I have to start a new thread about my problems because this is not Leaf-specific and more people can read it. But for now I wait a little and see how it goes.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I've got my current limit set to 26A right now

You gotta be kidding me! Yeah, take it easy on that pack. Its a good battery, but...it will die fast if abused. Once you are settled in (helmet, gloves, good brakes, etc...) you need to set the amps to 50A and swap-in a battery that can easily do peaks of 70A. That way, the battery will not be stressed and will last a long time for you. The NCR-B pack needs to go on a smaller motor, or sell it while its still good, and sell it to someone with a BBS02, or Bafang BPM geared hubmotor.

If you're excited by 26A, I can't wait to hear what you have to say about 50A...

 

[Jabotical]

I've got my current limit set to 26A right now

You gotta be kidding me! Yeah, take it easy on that pack. Its a good battery, but...it will die fast if abused. Once you are settled in (helmet, gloves, good brakes, etc...) you need to set the amps to 50A and swap-in a battery that can easily do peaks of 70A. That way, the battery will not be stressed and will last a long time for you. The NCR-B pack needs to go on a smaller motor, or sell it while its still good, and sell it to someone with a BBS02, or Bafang BPM geared hubmotor.

Yeah, haha, I researched everything out obsessively for a while before making all my initial purchases, but failed to realize how significant the continuous current limitation was going to be! I guess it's hard to know until you have a little experience with how it feels. I've already started eyeing some more suitable packs, but I didn't know if I could justify it when I'd just dropped $500 on this underpowered one. So there are people kicking around who will buy a battery that isn't quite new? It seems like folks would tend to be suspicious. I guess I might as well list it on the Used marketplace here and see... any other decent markets you know where someone might buy a good quality, barely used 13.5 AH battery capable of 20 A continuous?

If you're excited by 26A, I can't wait to hear what you have to say about 50A...

No kidding! I did initially have it set to 32A (so I got a taste of that), then dropped it to 26 hoping that would be enough to prevent overdrawing (and I still found it pretty exhilarating while it lasted!). Man, I can't be riding around on this motor at only 20A/1000W. It begs for more.

 

[Jabotical]

Thanks for input. When I wrote about it I had problems setting it up with my adaptto but now it suddenly work. I have nothing to compare with so cant say how it perform but was running fine with my temporary 36V ~750W max. Around 55km/h with pedal help but not so strong uphills (will have stronger battery later).

So for now it is okay. I guess I have to start a new thread about my problems because this is not Leaf-specific and more people can read it. But for now I wait a little and see how it goes.

Yeah I think you're right that you'd be more likely to get some traction with a new thread that more diverse eyeballs might see.

55 km/h is pretty legit. But it's sure nice to be able to maintain it up hills (or without pedaling), agreed.

 

[ABritInNY]

OK guys, we'll I bought myself a 4t leaf last autumn and used it on my EEB build. Less than 500 miles and catastrophic failure of the axle occurred!
What the drive side looks like after removing it off the bike...scary...

The piece of broken axle and bolt still screwed on, right after fishing it out of the street.
Funny thing is, I emailed leaf about it and the main guy Peter, (incidentally the same guy that took my order and promised great customer service!) Claims that in over 100,000 sold motors he's never HEARD OR SEEN ANY type of axle failure lol... obviously I pointed him in the direction of ES and the many reported incident, instead of calling him out for the liar we both knew he was!. Instead I told him of the 16mm upgrades some manufacturers have gone with to avoid it happening more BUT after that last denial email no further reply
Leaf was good while working but it is possible that the axles are not as strong as you may think.
For me it's possible that high regen of my new sine wave ESC caused it? but whatever the issue was, I'd advise a Lil extra caution, and to examine the dropouts @least once a month to make sure there is no play @all and that the lug bolts are tightly secured and pinch bolts on TA's too, so that they can't cause any tiny vibrations and shear the axle.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Thanks for sharing ABritInNY.
This is a little alarming, especially for me as I plan on upping the power in my Leaf to 6KW+ soon and the dropout's on my Fighter are pretty rubbish.

I think I will have to convert the dropout's to clamping dropouts soon then.

Cheers

 

[Allex]

This kind of things mostly happen because of the dropouts on the bike. Was you dropouts tight? If you have a little slack then you can twist your axle. 0,05mm of play is enough to snap it off!
I am pulling 9kW peak, regen hard with my midi-e controller on 1500W version and it is still doing fine. Keep an eye on your dropouts!

 

[ABritInNY]

This kind of things mostly happen because of the dropouts on the bike. Was you dropouts tight? If you have a little slack then you can twist your axle. 0,05mm of play is enough to snap it off!
I am pulling 9kW peak, regen hard with my midi-e controller on 1500W version and it is still doing fine. Keep an eye on your dropouts!

Was there slack in the dropout? No, not that I'm aware of, however I did not (4 the 1st time, actually,) put the bike upside down for the wheel re-installation. I was installing a new sine wave controller to replace my Lyen 18fet on that bike, and I had it on a Harbor Freight motorcycle swingarm repair stand. Both sides were securely in their dropouts and TA's were clamped. I did have a small issue setting the new ESC up, w/large reverse torque on 1 wrong setup, possibly that created the tiny "play" even after correct halls and phases were done. Normally, (previously now I guees,) with my Steel EEB frame and clamping TA's I'd felt comfortable just tightening the lugs very snugly as the last step, and not over torqued like a cars, as I never wanted probs with the threads at a later date. On this axle bolt, the first two turns were stripped so i had to tap it on till i got it to catch on the axle and tighten, as the threads on this bolt are very thin and soft (replacement 14mm bolt,) however even so, without play in the dropout, a lot of other things "may' also have happened, perhaps the new ESC's larger power regen braking? Idk 4 sure, but I'd def LOVE to know for sure what did it just to feel that 'safe' with it feeling I'd always had before
Whatever the case, just by looking over it, I feel it looks weak? Maybe I'm biased tho.
Most important to me obviously is how im gonna fix it... Even if leaf sent me a new axle it needs to be fitted and that's beyond my current skills. I don't even know of a reputable NYC machine shop that could do it?
If anyone does, or has any advice I'm all ears,

 

[spinningmagnets]

Just for general knowlege, what peak power levels were you using? And...what level of regen were you using?

The Crystalyte H35 series hubmotor was known to work fine at its rated power levels, but...when hot rodders used high power (especially when also using high regen), the axle was a known failure point. If you Google "Crystalyte broken axle", you will see what I mean...

 

[madin88]

if you mount a hub motor, you should think of the following:
the less you tighten the axle nut, the more torque the axle can withstand.
or with other words: if you tight them hard, it need less torque to break the axle.

because of that you want to have dropouts with clamping mechanism, especially if you use regen any play would be counter productive.

 

[ABritInNY]

if you mount a hub motor, you should think of the following:
the less you tighten the axle nut, the more torque the axle can withstand.
or with other words: if you tight them hard, it need less torque to break the axle.

because of that you want to have dropouts with clamping mechanism, especially if you use regen any play would be counter productive.

That is what I always understood to be true, and that's why I've always had the lugs tightened snug but not jammed but the clamping bolt on the bottom of my TA is tightly clamped to the axle.
Nevertheless...

Just for general knowlege, what peak power levels were you using? And...what level of regen were you using?

I used a 3 speed switch attached to the CA's aux input that changes the current setting from: with 24s 30ah lifepo4 battery @80v 90% 0f the usable charge
1) 29a 2200w which I run most and 2) 42a 3300w+ and 3)65a 5000w+ for initial bursts of acceleration at lights and stuff, but never more than 10sec bursts or so.
I do have a theory that it has something to do with the extra regen I programmed on my new sine wave controller, after switching from a lyen with only 2 levels of regen. My new ESC regen was set quite high and the amps limit was 70a not the 65a on the lyen so total regen W were higher too, (also the 3 speed aux was obv no longer as on the lyen either.) Since I found the TA loose after it happened and no longer 1 solid block with the drop out but with clamp bolt tight? I'm trying to figure out exactly why it happened? The axle never twisted at all just a snap sound and sheared through, no jangling sound first to give me a signal of a loose TA?
No jingle till it bounced on the road and seperated from the axle piece. I think about the ONLY direction it could only have traveled to make it into the street, and how lucky I was for no motor wheel/spoke impact so despite the break I have what to be thankful for... BUT I really do wanna solve this! I may just have to accept that the TA bolts loosened (It had happened once b4, months ago and they were re-tightened but without thread lock) If this caused even minute 'play' we have our cause and I'd know how to prevent it from re-occurring in the future on any new axle.

 

[ABritInNY]

if you mount a hub motor, you should think of the following:
the less you tighten the axle nut, the more torque the axle can withstand.
or with other words: if you tight them hard, it need less torque to break the axle.

because of that you want to have dropouts with clamping mechanism, especially if you use regen any play would be counter productive.

That is what I always understood to be true, and that's why I've always had the lugs tightened snug but not jammed but the clamping bolt on the bottom of my TA is tightly clamped to the axle.
Nevertheless...

Just for general knowlege, what peak power levels were you using? And...what level of regen were you using?

I used a 3 speed switch attached to the CA's aux input that changes the current setting from: with 24s 30ah lifepo4 battery @80v 90% 0f the usable charge
1) 29a 2200w which I run most and 2) 42a 3300w+ and 3)65a 5000w+ for initial bursts of acceleration at lights and stuff, but never more than 10sec bursts or so.
I do have a theory that it has something to do with the extra regen I programmed on my new sine wave controller, after switching from a lyen with only 2 levels of regen. My new ESC regen was set quite high and the amps limit was 70a not the 65a on the lyen so total regen W were higher too, (also the 3 speed aux was obv no longer as on the lyen either.) Since I found the TA loose after it happened and no longer 1 solid block with the drop out but with clamp bolt tight? I'm trying to figure out exactly why it happened? The axle never twisted at all just a snap sound and sheared through, no jangling sound first to give me a signal of a loose TA?
No jingle till it bounced on the road and seperated from the axle piece. I think about the ONLY direction it could only have traveled to make it into the street, and how lucky I was for no motor wheel/spoke impact so despite the break I have what to be thankful for... BUT I really do wanna solve this! I may just have to accept that the TA bolts loosened (It had happened once b4, months ago and they were re-tightened but without thread lock) If this caused even minute 'play' we have our cause and I'd know how to prevent it from re-occurring in the future on any new axle.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

You know, I'm not completely convinced axle play is all there is to it.

I've been running a Golden motor '1000W' motor (28mm 9C clone) on my recumbent commuter for 2 years with an audible click from the axle every time I go from acceleration to regen. I know it's not ideal, and I have tried fixing it, but never managed to and so far, the 14mm axle has held up fine.

The result above does have me worried and makes me want to address my issue, but I don't think axle play is necessarily as bad as it sounds from above.

Cheers

 

[ABritInNY]

Great news my replacement axle arrived as well as a COMPLETE 4t * 16 rotor winding and shaft for a far easier install. Cost of both was just the $80 air shipping charge with UPS and it came within a week or so.

Everything looking very nice indeed...time to go to work adding the right connectors I need.

The old motor seems to have had some strange windings but worked great nevertheless...

 

[ABritInNY]

Ok then so It's time to get this bike back on the road again


Once already out, methinks it might just be the right time to add some ferro fluid

Gotta try and do this carefully, BUT get too close and it'll suck right out the syringe onto the magnets...

Ok just button her up and back on the bike to test