Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[SprocketLocket]

Did you other guys receive complementary spare spokes and/or nipples like Nep?

 

[mchlpeel]

Yea I got a couple of spokes and some spare connectors and ty wraps

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Hi guy's,

So I've just determined the 1500W Leaf Motor is probably the best fit to replace my HS4080 on my Fighter and moved across to here from the MXUS thread. :lol:
I like the light weight and high efficiency of this motor as well as the low (relative) cost and build quality.

A bit of info on my use case:
I will initially be running the motor with 12S LiPo and 16S LiFePo4 packs, so 45V and 52V nominal voltage respectively. I eventually plan to build/buy a new 18650 pack, and have yet to determine voltage, but might go with 14S, but not any higher as I don't want to have to buy new DC-DC converters or chargers etc.
Either way, I will get the 4T motor as I'm convinced by the (generic) discussion over on the MXUS thread it is the best fit for my requirements.
My riding is quite mixed, and mostly off-road with periods of 2000-3000W continuous followed by decent breaks when coasting down the other side. I do occasionally like to smash up a mountain side, and have plans to deal with the heat result from that...see below.

I will be driving the motor with an Adaptto Mini-E that is heat-sinked and force air cooled, so it will handle what ever I can throw at it.

As for cooling the Leaf Motor, I will do the same forced air cooling mod I did to my HS4080:

This mod has proven quite effective, and when combined with the high efficientcy of the Leaf motor I reckon it will be bomb proof. 8)
This should allow me to push the motor as hard as I need to for my kind of riding without worrying about it overheating most of the time.

I only have 2 questions:

1) The swing-arm on the Fighter is over 150mm wide. Do Leafbike offer an axle with wider shoulders, or do you think I can get away with spacers, washers to fill the gap?

2) I have a rim/spokes from an old failed HS4065 that I would like to reuse. Is there a technical drawing of the Leaf Motor available? Failing that, does anyone know the diameter of the flange where the spoke holes are and flange width?

Cheers

 

[SprocketLocket]

Axle lengths have varied between 200 and 215. But you may already know that; not sure what you meant by 'shoulders'. First one we know of was 215mm, the rest have been 200, but I believe you can make sure it's 215 (or 200) upon request in the notes at checkout. If you make your question very short, LB sales usually provides an intelligible answer.

Can't help you on question 2, sorry (no motor). But we have some owners who are pretty spoke-savvy, I'm sure someone will chime in.

PS Saw some of the discussion of the air cooling (impressive), and of 'filter' material. Kind of OT, and I didn't read the whole thing, but had you considered something nylon like from a knee-high stocking, either that or wire screen/mesh. Nylon stocking material is real good for filtering most out of used cooking oil, raw honey, and surrounding dirty water pumps... airflow would be so-so. Wire screen obviously would let more of both air and dirt through. Probably depends on how close the fans are to pressing right up against the material. Insect screen fabric is another option.

 

[markz]

Those fans, push air sideways?
Very interesting indeed.
Balance is probably a non-issue.

It would be cool to do "controlled" test runs without fans installed, then with fans installed.
See what the temp diff is

 

[ebikeaddict]

Cowardlyduck

I measured the flange diameter ( center of hole to center of hole) as 9 3/16". I converted this to mm for the spoke calculators as 234 mm.
Flange width ( center to center) was 35.5 mm

I did a zero cross lacing pattern by drilling new set of holes 20 mm from existing hole, got a good spoke angle at the 24" rim I used , as per the ebikes.ca spoke calculator

 

[FluxShifter]

I vented and added a centrifugal fan on my hub motor last weekend. It helped the motor heat up slower and cool off quicker. Even vented though this motor still gets hot on the hills. 18s using 2500w on the flats I can do 40 mph and the temp stays between 100c-110c. After the motor is warm and I turn up my street the 5% grade pushes temps over 130c. Hub motors don't like hills especially pulling my 220lbs 6'6" frame. This motor would benefit from a thick aluminum stator at the cost of added weight. Over 2000w is where the heat starts getting generated. This motor pulls hard at 5000w and even when its hot the performance is still there. I would add a temp sensor and keep an eye on it.

Vented/Centrifugal fan John in CR style:
View attachment 3
View attachment 2
The blades create a low pressure behind and the flow comes through these holes:
View attachment 1
Intake Side:

 

[Kodin]

Wow! Keep arms and legs away from wheel when operating! XD

 

[SprocketLocket]

Makes a good case for oil cooling. Will be interesting to see the first attempt.

 

[Kodin]

Makes a good case for oil cooling. Will be interesting to see the first attempt.

Still planning to do that soon-ish... Stay tuned!

 

[ozman]

Hi guy's,

So I've just determined the 1500W Leaf Motor is probably the best fit to replace my HS4080 on my Fighter and moved across to here from the MXUS thread. :lol:
I like the light weight and high efficiency of this motor as well as the low (relative) cost and build quality.

A bit of info on my use case:
I will initially be running the motor with 12S LiPo and 16S LiFePo4 packs, so 45V and 52V nominal voltage respectively. I eventually plan to build/buy a new 18650 pack, and have yet to determine voltage, but might go with 14S, but not any higher as I don't want to have to buy new DC-DC converters or chargers etc.
Either way, I will get the 4T motor as I'm convinced by the (generic) discussion over on the MXUS thread it is the best fit for my requirements.
My riding is quite mixed, and mostly off-road with periods of 2000-3000W continuous followed by decent breaks when coasting down the other side. I do occasionally like to smash up a mountain side, and have plans to deal with the heat result from that...see below.

I will be driving the motor with an Adaptto Mini-E that is heat-sinked and force air cooled, so it will handle what ever I can throw at it.

As for cooling the Leaf Motor, I will do the same forced air cooling mod I did to my HS4080:

This mod has proven quite effective, and when combined with the high efficientcy of the Leaf motor I reckon it will be bomb proof. 8)
This should allow me to push the motor as hard as I need to for my kind of riding without worrying about it overheating most of the time.

I only have 2 questions:

1) The swing-arm on the Fighter is over 150mm wide. Do Leafbike offer an axle with wider shoulders, or do you think I can get away with spacers, washers to fill the gap?

2) I have a rim/spokes from an old failed HS4065 that I would like to reuse. Is there a technical drawing of the Leaf Motor available? Failing that, does anyone know the diameter of the flange where the spoke holes are and flange width?

Cheers

With 2000w - 3000w continuous wouldn't you be better off with the MXUS 3000 will the Leaf motor handle that kind of power

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Thanks for the replies guy's.

Axle lengths have varied between 200 and 215. But you may already know that; not sure what you meant by 'shoulders'. First one we know of was 215mm, the rest have been 200, but I believe you can make sure it's 215 (or 200) upon request in the notes at checkout. If you make your question very short, LB sales usually provides an intelligible answer.

Good to know. I will definitely need the 215mm axle length for the total axle length, or even longer if possible.
What I'm after is the shoulder to shoulder length...i.e. the distance between the non threaded parts of the axle. Since the inside of my dropouts need something to butt up against, this is an important consideration to know if spacers will need to be used, or if I would be better off asking for a custom axle.

PS Saw some of the discussion of the air cooling (impressive), and of 'filter' material. Kind of OT, and I didn't read the whole thing, but had you considered something nylon like from a knee-high stocking, either that or wire screen/mesh. Nylon stocking material is real good for filtering most out of used cooking oil, raw honey, and surrounding dirty water pumps... airflow would be so-so. Wire screen obviously would let more of both air and dirt through. Probably depends on how close the fans are to pressing right up against the material. Insect screen fabric is another option.

I did previously discuss using filters. In the end I changed my mind and am not using anything. With the internals thoroughly coated in protective paint, it's not really necessary.

It would be cool to do "controlled" test runs without fans installed, then with fans installed.<br abp="836">See what the temp diff is

I did.

It works!

Cowardlyduck<br abp="885"><br abp="886">I measured the flange diameter ( center of hole to center of hole) as 9 3/16". I converted this to mm for the spoke calculators as 234 mm.<br abp="887">Flange width ( center to center) was 35.5 mm<br abp="888"> <br abp="889">I did a zero cross lacing pattern by drilling new set of holes 20 mm from existing hole, got a good spoke angle at the 24" rim I used , as per the ebikes.ca spoke calculator

Thanks! Much appreciated. I will have to compare this to the motor schematics I have on the HS40xx when I get the chance, but from memory I think the flange diameter is about the same, but the width is less. That might mean my spokes are too long...in which case I probably couldn't reuse them...I've cut and re-threaded spokes before...not keen to do that again!

I vented and added a centrifugal fan on my hub motor last weekend.

The catch with that approach is it doesn't continue cooling when moving slow or stopped. I don't disagree that it would be effective, but for my slower riding style, it's not as effective. I've also come to love the variable pitch fan noise feedback I get from running the fans in series off my main pack. When I got WOT, the voltage drop creates a noticeable and very cool sounding drop in the fan speed and noise. It gives great feedback on power consumption at any given moment.

The spoke issue can be addressed, post motor acquisition, but the axle cannot. If anyone can measure the shoulder to should length it would be appreciated. Or if anyone know's the likelihood of LB doing a custom axle for me, that would also be appreciated.

Cheers

 

[John in CR]

The spoke issue can be addressed, post motor acquisition, but the axle cannot.

I've modded the axle of just about every hubbie I've ever used, and other than the time I modded a short axled front motor for rear use (and the mod for use in 20mm axle fork that I plan), I must say it's the easiest quickest motor mods I've done. Extreme care (especially on the wire side) and a bit of skill with the most dangerous tool in the arsenal, an angle grinder, makes it simple.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

I've modded the axle of just about every hubbie I've ever used, and other than the time I modded a short axled front motor for rear use (and the mod for use in 20mm axle fork that I plan), I must say it's the easiest quickest motor mods I've done. Extreme care (especially on the wire side) and a bit of skill with the most dangerous tool in the arsenal, an angle grinder, makes it simple.

LOL John, I totally don't get what your getting at???
An angle grinder can't add material to my axle, which is what I'll need if it's too short or the shoulders are too far in.

Cheers

 

[markz]

Pop the old shaft out, pop a new shaft in.
OR
Bearings?

 

[John in CR]

I've modded the axle of just about every hubbie I've ever used, and other than the time I modded a short axled front motor for rear use (and the mod for use in 20mm axle fork that I plan), I must say it's the easiest quickest motor mods I've done. Extreme care (especially on the wire side) and a bit of skill with the most dangerous tool in the arsenal, an angle grinder, makes it simple.

LOL John, I totally don't get what your getting at???
An angle grinder can't add material to my axle, which is what I'll need if it's too short or the shoulders are too far in.

Cheers

Lengthening by making an interior threaded sleeve like I did for the short axled front motor I did isn't terribly difficult. The result can be stronger than the original, but you want to take care not to end up with a point where too much sheer force is focused on the original like one ESer did and easily snapped the axle there.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

A new shaft/axle isn't going to be possible. I don't have the tools, and my recent attempts to do that to my HS40 just resulted in the axle bending...so not keen to repeat that!

John, could you elaborate a bit more on this interior threaded sleeve? I'm not sure I could make one, but interested to know what it is exactly...do you have a picture?

Cheers

 

[markz]

Ah, perhaps an extended length "Bolt", then a threaded shaft?

 

[John in CR]

I vented and added a centrifugal fan on my hub motor last weekend. It helped the motor heat up slower and cool off quicker. Even vented though this motor still gets hot on the hills. 18s using 2500w on the flats I can do 40 mph and the temp stays between 100c-110c. After the motor is warm and I turn up my street the 5% grade pushes temps over 130c. Hub motors don't like hills especially pulling my 220lbs 6'6" frame. This motor would benefit from a thick aluminum stator at the cost of added weight. Over 2000w is where the heat starts getting generated. This motor pulls hard at 5000w and even when its hot the performance is still there. I would add a temp sensor and keep an eye on it.

Before and after seems awfully hot street riding on the flats. I think shortening the blades will help increase flow through the motor. All of the action takes place at the blade tips with centrifugal fans, so behind the blade near the tip is where the lowest pressure would be, and because it's so far from the exhaust hole I believe a lot of the air rushing in to fill that low pressure comes from elsewhere instead of being sucked out of the motor. The blades look easy enough to mod, so try that first.

Something else seems amiss though. These motors have a beautiful looking stator, so I'd hate to see something shooting it in the foot. Did yours have a gap in the magnets like Neptronix's, because he's wrong about that having no effect at all, though it could be minor? Your controller current settings? We really need to get a full set of input measurements for Miles spreadsheet, but in the meantime if you can get me the phase-to-phase resistance with the motor at room temp and your no-load speed it would tell me a lot.

 

[Kodin]

SHAFT NECK DOWN LENGTH HAS BEEN MEASURED IN PREVIOUS POSTS:

For your convenience, I've measured (again) the cassette shaft I've yet to install in my motor:

(Measured from the base of the first thread either side)

(Measured butted up to the shoulder on either side)

Just got my 5/8ths-shank carbide tooling, and now have everything but an external threading tool. The bits cut pretty damn nice in 416 stainless. Seriously tempted to make a spare shaft from something HARD, if nothing else so I know what to do when I do something stupid and break this one. If you run a cassette, you can't increase the shoulder length toward the dropouts at all and instead have to use spacers on the cassette side. The shoulder sits where the outer bearing of the cassette module stops, and retains the bearings in place without putting high thrust loads on the outer bearing. Good design, but unfortunate in that the shaft has a thin section unsupported before the dropouts. I'll probably make a threaded spacer for it.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

SHAFT NECK DOWN LENGTH HAS BEEN MEASURED IN PREVIOUS POSTS:

For your convenience, I've measured (again) the cassette shaft I've yet to install in my motor:

Thanks Kodin. Not sure how I missed it, but probably a terminology thing as I was searching every page of this thread for 'shoulder'. :lol:

You mentioned this is the cassette shaft...I'm guessing that means there is also a freewheel shaft? Is the freewheel shaft the 215mm one?

Either way, it sounds like I will face potential problems mounting it with the shoulders (Neck down) being so far in from the inside of my dropouts. Has anyone else installed a leaf motor (or any 135mm intended axle) in 150mm wide dropouts?

Cheers

 

[FluxShifter]

Measurements this morning

Phase to Phase Resistance at 21.8c
A to B = .2 ohms
A to C = .2 ohms
B to C = .2 ohms

13*5t No Load Rpm at 48v = 485 Rpm

Shoulder to Shoulder Width Freewheel Axle = 134.4 mm

Looking at pictures I don't see one large gap between the magnets

 

[SprocketLocket]

You mentioned this is the cassette shaft...I'm guessing that means there is also a freewheel shaft? Is the freewheel shaft the 215mm one?

Info is in past posts, but to answer directly: the motor is sold by default with a freewheel mount (and a disk brake mount on the other side, of course). The cassette version has to be requested by a comment at checkout. Has nothing to do with the axle length. They are just producing inconsistent axle lengths. So I recommend requesting the axle length at checkout if that's important, just so that there are no surprises.

My understanding is that they basically take the cover and axle design for their freehub 1000W motor, and put it on the wider 1500W (anyone please correct anything wrong said here). They do have a production freehub version of the 1000W you can order right off the site, and a separate 1000W freewheel listing. But no production 1500W cassette version at this time listed. Apparently a custom made-to-order nice thing they do.

The downside of the cassette version (which they call a spline gear) is that the cassette-side axle has only 12mm major diameter. The other/non-modified side is the standard, stronger 14mm. If you order the default version (freewheel mount), both sides then have the thicker, stronger 14mm dropout. My understanding (not 100%) is that somehow they do a mashup of axle designs for this 1500W freewheel version. Maybe it's with CNC wizardry.. dunno.

So, the convenience of a cassette freehub is very tempting, but should be balanced with how much power you plan to put through this thing. If you want max axle strength, order the standard freewheel version like mchlpeel did, as he plans to run pretty high power. Or buy a super-freewheel axle upgrade from Kodin and his new aftermarket business

I recommend putting any checkout requests into as few words as possible. Use hieroglyphs if possible. My policy is to email them to confirm they are willing to do it beforehand, again, so no surprises. If you have a list of a custom build, you might email them with that list, beginning with "Okay to order for 1500W? In comments at checkout?". Just my opinion. They might be willing to do a longer axle than 215mm. Maybe ask, "For 1500W, can I get 240mm axle?" [or whatever length].

Has anyone else installed a leaf motor (or any 135mm intended axle) in 150mm wide dropouts?

One person here bought a motor for his 190mm dropout bike, but it came unexpectedly with a 200mm axle, so he's not going to be able to use it. I don't know of any wide-frame users who currently have theirs. But I have a 170mm dropout. Any concern I should have, if I order this? I'm not too fluent with washers spacers and the like, how these things fit together. I planned to separately order some "jam nuts" for the inside, figuring that sounded like a good idea, but not really understanding (I'm new to DIY kits and not incredibly handy).

I'm curious, what types of bikes have 150mm dropouts? If I knew of such a thing, I might have ordered that instead of a fatbike. I occasionally read of people running 2.75 or 3-inch tires in mountain bikes, but I don't know how to figure out which bikes support those tires, especially on the used market. If your dropouts are only 150mm, why do you want an axle longer than 215mm?

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Thanks SprocketLocket! That really helps explain a lot!
Leaf really need to produce a motor specs diagram to avoid all this uncertainty and hunting around for dimensions!

In my case I have a Stealth Fighter. It's dropouts (from memory) are 162mm wide. I can probably add washers to make up the difference from a 150mm wide neck (shoulder), but not from 135mm as it adds too much movable/slack material to the axle.

I will have a go at requesting a bigger axle and see what they say. Wish me luck!

Cheers

 

[Kodin]

A: the shafts are made on lathes, then milled for the woodruff key slot and the channel for the wires through the axle. This can be done rather easily, however the hard part of any shaft build, (And this is why my cassette parts took so long to arrive,) is that they have to heat-treat the shaft to get any decent level of strength out of it. I'd have the same problem, and I have no idea who in my area does vacuum heat-treating. Either way, it's only cost-effective if you do a large run of parts, so I'd have to make a lot of shafts to justify. If anyone has a good source, please let me know if they've done good work for you. I'd build a heat-treating oven, but it'd be a new skill for me, and therefore inconsistent to start; I wouldn't feel comfortable selling shafts without knowing the quality of my work. Plus, with a lot of steels, you need to cryo-treat them to get the most out of the steel after heat-treat and before annealing.

B: Cowardlyduck: If you need a spacer, let me know; I can cut one that's threaded to whatever thread pitch you want; that way it's making more contact with the shaft, and won't wobble so badly when mounted; far better option than stacking washers. Also, a tube spacer doesn't require heat-treatment; Just needs to be cut as-is and installed since it'll butt-up against an aluminum frame. You'll just need EXACT (to 0.01mm if possible!) dimensions of the spacers you want, or specify over-length slightly and be good with a file. Either way, if the dropouts are 162mm, you only have like 15mm per side for nuts AND dropout meat. Shaft won't be long enough with spacers. Let me know what Leafbike says about the option for an extra-long shaft. Lead time for my order was about a week to turn/cut/heat-treat, then a week to ship.