Thanks Kodin.
I just measured to be sure, then sent this off to Leafbike:
Cheers
I just measured to be sure, then sent this off to Leafbike:
We'll see what they say.
Cheers
Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor
- Thread starter neptronix
- Start date
Kodin
1 kW
If they ask for clarification, mention "dropout width" instead of "axle shoulder/neck length" and include a picture or diagram for clarity with measurements drawn on top. 16mm axle nuts won't fit standard dropouts... Several reasons: flats would still be the ~10mm they normally are, so overall you'd have a smaller thread contact-patch and it'd be MUCH easier to cross-thread and/or over-tighten and mangle the threads. Second, the nuts would be HUGE. Like 21-26mm wide at the least. Sure would be a killer shaft though!
John in CR
100 TW
FluxShifter said:
It's good that the magnet gap like on Neptronix's motor isn't typical.
It looks like you measured the resistance by simply using a DMM, which won't give you an accurate enough result. Here's how to get an accurate measure, because hopefully the resistance is well below 200mOhms or they certainly can't call this motor "high efficiency", since it would probably mean they're using cheap motor wire. The 16*4 turn MXUS 3000 has a phase to phase resistance of only 112mOhms.
If the Leaf has the same grade and gauge of magnet wire, then I'd expect it's phase-to-phase resistance to be somewhere around 150mOhms.
How To Measure Phase-to-phase Resistance (copied from a source I don't remember).
"You can measure your motor's DC resistance with a multimeter,
but not directly, because the value will be very low (~0.05 Ohms).
To get sufficient resolution you need to feed about 1 Amp into a
motor winding, while measuring the voltage across it. If the
current is exactly 1A then the resistance equals the voltage. If
the current is not exactly 1A then you can apply Ohm's Law
(Resistance=Volts/Amps).
The tricky bit is, how do you get a known current of about 1 Amp?
You will need a stable power supply (eg. 12V car battery) and a
high power resistor of the correct value (12 Ohms for a 12V supply).
If you can't get an appropriate resistor then you can use a light
bulb (eg. 10~15W auto bulb). To find out how much current the
resistor/bulb draws, connect it to the power supply and in series
with your multimeter set to its 10A range. Record the measured value.
Now switch the multimeter to its lowest voltage range (eg. 200mV)
and connect any two of the motor leads in series with the resistor/bulb.
Measure the voltage across the motor leads. For greatest accuracy the
multimeter probes should be placed directly onto the motor wires or
bullet plugs (otherwise you will also be measuring the resistance of
the connections!)."
Thanks Kodin...they got back to me saying they can do it all and seemed to understand me perfectly.Kodin said:
I think I might order this tonight if others can't see any issues with this working out.
Kodin, I'm not so sure about the 16mm comment...yes, in proportion to the flats on a 16mm shaft the threaded section is less than on a 14mm axle, however the overall total contact area of the threads will still be better than a 14mm axle because the shaft is larger. The amount of torque that could be applied to the nuts therefore should still be better than a 14mm axle. Is my assumption wrong?
Yes I see your point about it being easier to cross-thread, but as long as I'm careful, I don't think this will be an issue.
The massive nuts won't be a problem either...the dropout's on the Stealth Fighter use a torque block/plate that slides over the axle and the nuts tighten onto...a larger nut will help as it will be bigger than this plate and also tighten onto the swing-arm as well and help prevent axle rotation.
Cheers
FluxShifter
10 mW
I thought the resistance was too low to measure with a DMM. You must load the circuit and measure the voltage drop across the phases. Gotcha. This may take some time to rig up since I'm deep in my LR mid drive project at the moment.
Kodin
1 kW
Cowardlyduck: It was mostly just pointing out possible pitfalls; glad to know your frame has the surface-area to accommodate large nuts.
Regarding the time required to make the shaft, when they said it takes a while for my versions I told them take as much time as they need. They seemed to appreciate the sentiment. Also, seriously starting to think I'll want to make a stainless or cromoly spacer that goes as a tube and widens out where it contacts the dropouts. Think like a bolt, but smooth on the outside, bored through and threaded to a tight fit with the shaft thread on the inside, and the right length to space the freehub off the dropouts. Might help supplement the strength of the small shaft, and doubles as a solid spacer for the dropout. Only other option is my original plan; make a new shaft, and only cut flats in the cassette side where they actually go through the dropouts. That way I have full-circumference threads right up to the dropout slot. Only way I can think of to improve strength on that side.
Regarding the time required to make the shaft, when they said it takes a while for my versions I told them take as much time as they need. They seemed to appreciate the sentiment. Also, seriously starting to think I'll want to make a stainless or cromoly spacer that goes as a tube and widens out where it contacts the dropouts. Think like a bolt, but smooth on the outside, bored through and threaded to a tight fit with the shaft thread on the inside, and the right length to space the freehub off the dropouts. Might help supplement the strength of the small shaft, and doubles as a solid spacer for the dropout. Only other option is my original plan; make a new shaft, and only cut flats in the cassette side where they actually go through the dropouts. That way I have full-circumference threads right up to the dropout slot. Only way I can think of to improve strength on that side.
SprocketLocket
100 W
This brings up a point and I would appreciate your input. Since this is all theoretical for me till I actually see the kit and try to mount it.
Since my bike has 170mm dropouts, do I have to make any provisions or special requests so that this fits right? (I haven't ordered yet.) I'm talking about anything on the inside of the dropouts. Or are 'jam nuts' sufficient (or is anything required on the inside)? Assume I know as much as a 2-year-old here. On my stock fatbike, between the disk brake mount and the dropout, there is a ~quarter-inch nut. On the cassette side, between the cassette (10-spd) and dropout, there's a nut that appears to be about half that width. It seems to me the purpose of these nuts is to allow you to cinch the outer Quick Release together, to give the frame something to tighten up against. Or maybe it is to keep the hub and wheelset held together when you take it off the bike; I actually don't know. But it seems these nuts 'fill up' any remaining space, to give the frame something to squeeze against. So is there any provision I need to make sure this happens with this motor [taking up any spare room, to the inner dropouts]? All this talk about 'shoulders' has made me nervous. Please let me know if there's anything I need to order, either from LeafBike or separately. It would be nice if I could keep the option open for using this motor on a standard 135mm dropout someday. I don't want to force the motor as-ordered into being a unitasker for fatbikes only, unless that's necessary.
Since my bike has 170mm dropouts, do I have to make any provisions or special requests so that this fits right? (I haven't ordered yet.) I'm talking about anything on the inside of the dropouts. Or are 'jam nuts' sufficient (or is anything required on the inside)? Assume I know as much as a 2-year-old here. On my stock fatbike, between the disk brake mount and the dropout, there is a ~quarter-inch nut. On the cassette side, between the cassette (10-spd) and dropout, there's a nut that appears to be about half that width. It seems to me the purpose of these nuts is to allow you to cinch the outer Quick Release together, to give the frame something to tighten up against. Or maybe it is to keep the hub and wheelset held together when you take it off the bike; I actually don't know. But it seems these nuts 'fill up' any remaining space, to give the frame something to squeeze against. So is there any provision I need to make sure this happens with this motor [taking up any spare room, to the inner dropouts]? All this talk about 'shoulders' has made me nervous. Please let me know if there's anything I need to order, either from LeafBike or separately. It would be nice if I could keep the option open for using this motor on a standard 135mm dropout someday. I don't want to force the motor as-ordered into being a unitasker for fatbikes only, unless that's necessary.
mchlpeel
100 W
I am looking to have the CAv3 DP control throttle and regen. Does anyone know if EM3Ev's controller supports CA controlled regen? Does either the controller or the CA come with the required jumper cable connection for the ebrakes
Or do I need to use the CA adaptor module?
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/ca-accessories/cables/ca3-adapter.html
Also does anyone know how to connect a HWBS sensor to the CA as it has 3 pins and the CA ebrake connector has 2 pins.
Or do I need to use the CA adaptor module?
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/ca-accessories/cables/ca3-adapter.html
Also does anyone know how to connect a HWBS sensor to the CA as it has 3 pins and the CA ebrake connector has 2 pins.
Kodin
1 kW
SprocketLocket said:
Shafts come with washers to give a nice wide contact area on the inside of the dropout. Only other option is do what I'm going to do for my cassette shaft and make a spacer. If you ever want to convert to a standard dropout width, you can always order a replacement shaft, pop the covers off, feed the phase wires out, and have someone with a shop press press out the shaft; leafbike will ship you a replacement shaft for a pretty reasonable cost and the "standard" shafts are most likely always in stock. For how long the shaft will be, stick with what you asked for; the longer the shaft, the more likely it will compromise if you make it too thin by making the shoulder lengths shorter.
SprocketLocket
100 W
Well, the way I order won't be much different from a standard one (I'm not cowardlyduck). I'm going to ask for the 215mm length axle (not because I need it, but just because), and the cassette. I'm not going to mention anything about shoulders or internal widths. My 10-spd cassette is standard SRAM, brake is standard BB5. My hub for my 170mm dropout is of course wider than normal, but that shouldn't matter, as the motor will become the hub. I'll use the included washers to fill up any space left over between the dropouts, and will arrange them such that they'll line the hub motor up to the disk brake. If any of this sounds wrong, let me know! lol. I'm sure it seems obvious to many, but being my 1st hub motor, with some unusual aspects, I don't want to screw it up. I'm sure lurkers will find this conversation helpful.
mchlpeel
100 W
Hey SprocketLocket,
The shoulders is what the dropouts clamp onto. The shoulder is approx 135mm which makes sense as this is standard dropout width.
You would need a lot of spacers to make it up to 170mm. You don't really want that many spacers as it will induce play in the axle.
The image is of the freewheel side without the freewheel fitted. You can see the dropout is clamped to the motors shoulder. It's the same on the other side without the freewheel portion
The shoulders is what the dropouts clamp onto. The shoulder is approx 135mm which makes sense as this is standard dropout width.
You would need a lot of spacers to make it up to 170mm. You don't really want that many spacers as it will induce play in the axle.
The image is of the freewheel side without the freewheel fitted. You can see the dropout is clamped to the motors shoulder. It's the same on the other side without the freewheel portion
mchlpeel
100 W
A problem I have seen it the thermistor is bundled with the hall sensors which is not correct for use with CA v3 it needs to be terminated with a 2 pin male JST-SM connector for plug and play compatibility.
markz
100 TW
mchlpeel said:
Good to know, I was just thinking about how I connect temp wire to my CA3-DP.
Who sells this 2 pin male jst-sm connector?
Is this what I need.
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/connectors/conbag.html
mchlpeel
100 W
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FluxShifter
10 mW
To get regen to work you connect the two white wires together on the infineon/Em3ev type controllers. If you want regen to activate while pulling the brake lever you must wire your brake switch directly to the controller. You also want to wire your brake switch to your CAv3 so it knows when to cut cruise control. You can also program regen to activate by rolling off the throttle. To do this you select 0: true for the Slip Charge Mode in the programming software. You will need a USB-TTL Cable and the software provided by Lyen or Em3ev.
Wiring up the temp sensor you will need a 2 pin JST to plug into the CA. You could hard wire it or use your own connecter. You will also need a pin to plug into the temp sensors wire at the hall connecter. I used a pin off my blown controller.
Wiring up the temp sensor you will need a 2 pin JST to plug into the CA. You could hard wire it or use your own connecter. You will also need a pin to plug into the temp sensors wire at the hall connecter. I used a pin off my blown controller.
mchlpeel
100 W
I intend to use the CAv3 adaptor module to connect the em3ev controller to the CA
http://www.ebikes.ca/ca3-adapter.html
I will then connect the throttle, ebrakes and 3 speed switch directly to CA
The adaptor module is the same as running a fly lead for ebrakes from what I have read. I don't think there is any need to connect the throttle connector though.
3 speed switch (compatible with CAv3)
http://www.ebikes.ca/ca3-switch.html
Half twist throttle (CAv3 compatible)
http://www.ebikes.ca/t-htwist.html
Ebrakes
http://www.ebikes.ca/ebrakewuxd.html
As for the temp sensor. I will remove the 2 pins from the hall connector and reterminate with a 2 pin male jst connector to plug into CA. I am not sure exactly sure which 2 pins are the ones for the temp sensor. I think that the ground is the same as hall sensors. Hopefully someone in the know will chime in.
JST connectors
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/connectors/conbag.html
http://www.ebikes.ca/ca3-adapter.html
I will then connect the throttle, ebrakes and 3 speed switch directly to CA
The adaptor module is the same as running a fly lead for ebrakes from what I have read. I don't think there is any need to connect the throttle connector though.
3 speed switch (compatible with CAv3)
http://www.ebikes.ca/ca3-switch.html
Half twist throttle (CAv3 compatible)
http://www.ebikes.ca/t-htwist.html
Ebrakes
http://www.ebikes.ca/ebrakewuxd.html
As for the temp sensor. I will remove the 2 pins from the hall connector and reterminate with a 2 pin male jst connector to plug into CA. I am not sure exactly sure which 2 pins are the ones for the temp sensor. I think that the ground is the same as hall sensors. Hopefully someone in the know will chime in.
JST connectors
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/connectors/conbag.html
markz
100 TW
Whats the 2nd wire, is it the white or temp wire and gnd?
mchlpeel
100 W
For those of you who are unsure of what I'm talking about the CAv3 unofficial user guide can be found here.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=145397
You will note that on page 33 the adaptor module is mentioned.
Also page 43 mentions the thermistor. It says that if the ground is shared elsewhere ie hall sensors there is no need to reterminate. So the 2 pin JST for temp sensing only needs the signal wire plugged into the CA as its already earthed elsewhere.
What colour is the signal wire?
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=145397
You will note that on page 33 the adaptor module is mentioned.
Also page 43 mentions the thermistor. It says that if the ground is shared elsewhere ie hall sensors there is no need to reterminate. So the 2 pin JST for temp sensing only needs the signal wire plugged into the CA as its already earthed elsewhere.
What colour is the signal wire?
cycborg
1 kW
Probably white. The typical color scheme for halls is red & black for + 5 V & ground; blue, green and yellow for the hall phases.mchlpeel said:
mchlpeel
100 W
That was great info cycborg.
That information matches up as the actual phase wires are also yellow blue and green. If this is a convention it should make figuring out phase connections to the em3ev controller straight forward.
That information matches up as the actual phase wires are also yellow blue and green. If this is a convention it should make figuring out phase connections to the em3ev controller straight forward.
SprocketLocket
100 W
Would it not be sufficient to screw some nuts on the inside of the frame, to provide backing for clampdown? Whether with or without an extra lock nut/jam nut, I don't know, but wouldn't something like that work? I believe this is what member WesNewell does (mongoose dolomite fatbike with mxus 3000, and on his original standard MTB YesCom kit). I have seen him mention 'jam nuts' several times (referring to the inside of the dropouts), but didn't know what he meant until now (if this is what he meant). If my idea is correct, and if it would work, I think that would allow the motor to be repurposed to 135mm if I ever wanted to, without any modification, no?mchlpeel said:
Kodin
1 kW
I'd still feel much more comfortable with a custom-made spacer that engages the threads; not only does it give a nice solid spacing, but it adds thickness to the thinnest part of the shaft. I'll see if I can mock up a prototype this weekend for my cassette shaft and provide pictures so you get an idea.
Also, RE: the temp sensor in the hall plug: That's apparently pretty common as a configuration for controllers that support temp sensor input. My Sabvoton has this sort of connector setup. If the CA3 has a ground that matches the ground for your halls, then yes, it should not need a ground off the hall plug. This of course depends on your controller, though I assume it's pretty common to have logic ground shared. As such you will only need the positive side of the thermistor to read it's value, so long as the controller is also plugged into the CA3 somehow with a ground line, such as through the throttle plug.
Regarding the hall wire colors, don't count on them being the same for any two motors; I've already seen that Dave's is different than mine; instead, go by pin #'s as I suspect the factory wires them whichever way, but the wires are connected in the same orientation every time.
Also, RE: the temp sensor in the hall plug: That's apparently pretty common as a configuration for controllers that support temp sensor input. My Sabvoton has this sort of connector setup. If the CA3 has a ground that matches the ground for your halls, then yes, it should not need a ground off the hall plug. This of course depends on your controller, though I assume it's pretty common to have logic ground shared. As such you will only need the positive side of the thermistor to read it's value, so long as the controller is also plugged into the CA3 somehow with a ground line, such as through the throttle plug.
Regarding the hall wire colors, don't count on them being the same for any two motors; I've already seen that Dave's is different than mine; instead, go by pin #'s as I suspect the factory wires them whichever way, but the wires are connected in the same orientation every time.
SprocketLocket
100 W
Thanks Kodin, that is a beautiful idea after all, of course.
I'm still at this time wanting to order the standard shoulder width; I don't think I've been talked out of it yet. It seems to me this could be done, ideally with Kodin's spacer, or less-ideally with nuts.
Let me get more technical.. the difference between 170mm and 135mm = 35mm. Per side, that's 17.5mm. Which is roughly 2/3 inch. Now, that kind of spacing allows you to put solid chainstay torque arms INSIDE the frame, and not having done it, I don't see why that wouldn't work. So you're down 4mm on each side, now down to 13.5mm. I imagine you'd want to leave room for a washer to spread the load, right? How thick is a washer? 1.5mm? (I really wouldn't know. But let's say 1.5mm.) That brings you down to 12mm if you only use one. I don't know if you should preferably also put one on the motor side of the nuts too. I don't know how wide of a nut you can find in this 1.5mm per thread, but it seems that might be a comfortable length for two (or more?) nuts to be locked together. My question would be: should the nuts be locked together/free-floating (backed off the frame), torqued outward to the frame, or torqued inwards towards the motor/shoulders?
I'm a noob, but I really would like to come at this at a technical angle. Emotions are good, and can be accurate, but right now I'm short on info as to why this wouldn't work. The main drawback I see is that the threaded axle is shaved to be dropout-shaped, which gives you a limited threaded area (threading connection is weaker). Another drawback is the added complexity of two different axle diameters, because apparently the cassette side dropout major diameter is only 12mm, and I don't see why that side has to be narrower, if the shoulder before it is already thicker. I'm assuming here that the shoulder goes to the end of the freehub mount, and that the hole exiting the freehub mount only allows for 12mm. And remember, I have a 10-spd cassette, which is already long (and that may introduce its own problems--will it overshoot the freehub mount?).
Alternative idea: I wonder if a "poor man's Kodin spacer" could be just several nuts in a row, their width chosen carefully to use up any spare room. The wider the nuts, the better. I think that would be much more solid than just using several cm of unthreaded washers. I honestly don't understand what the big deal is, but would like to know. The whole point is to cinch the frame firmly down to the hub motor via the Quick Release, right? I do not see why this would not let you cinch down the frame plenty tight. Again, my biggest question would be whether to torque the nuts outward or inward? I guess inward would be more failsafe, outward would be tighter unless they came loose. Inward would probably make it easier to change in the field.
On EM3EV's FatMac, I did notice the shoulders are wider for that motor. What wasn't clear to me was, whether he was using a removable thick threaded spacer like Kodin proposes, or whether it was all 1 piece. Does anyone know? It also wasn't clear to me how others would use EM3EV's system on a variety of wide dropout widths. Paul seemed to get around the question by saying his motor was designed for 170mm dropouts. Which, many fat frames are not, but somehow I don't think that would stop many on ES.
I would also really like the guy who ordered the motor for his 190mm dropout fatbike (sorry I don't remember your name right now) to chime in on how he planned to make that work the way he ordered it, even though his axle came too short.
I'm still at this time wanting to order the standard shoulder width; I don't think I've been talked out of it yet. It seems to me this could be done, ideally with Kodin's spacer, or less-ideally with nuts.
Let me get more technical.. the difference between 170mm and 135mm = 35mm. Per side, that's 17.5mm. Which is roughly 2/3 inch. Now, that kind of spacing allows you to put solid chainstay torque arms INSIDE the frame, and not having done it, I don't see why that wouldn't work. So you're down 4mm on each side, now down to 13.5mm. I imagine you'd want to leave room for a washer to spread the load, right? How thick is a washer? 1.5mm? (I really wouldn't know. But let's say 1.5mm.) That brings you down to 12mm if you only use one. I don't know if you should preferably also put one on the motor side of the nuts too. I don't know how wide of a nut you can find in this 1.5mm per thread, but it seems that might be a comfortable length for two (or more?) nuts to be locked together. My question would be: should the nuts be locked together/free-floating (backed off the frame), torqued outward to the frame, or torqued inwards towards the motor/shoulders?
I'm a noob, but I really would like to come at this at a technical angle. Emotions are good, and can be accurate, but right now I'm short on info as to why this wouldn't work. The main drawback I see is that the threaded axle is shaved to be dropout-shaped, which gives you a limited threaded area (threading connection is weaker). Another drawback is the added complexity of two different axle diameters, because apparently the cassette side dropout major diameter is only 12mm, and I don't see why that side has to be narrower, if the shoulder before it is already thicker. I'm assuming here that the shoulder goes to the end of the freehub mount, and that the hole exiting the freehub mount only allows for 12mm. And remember, I have a 10-spd cassette, which is already long (and that may introduce its own problems--will it overshoot the freehub mount?).
Alternative idea: I wonder if a "poor man's Kodin spacer" could be just several nuts in a row, their width chosen carefully to use up any spare room. The wider the nuts, the better. I think that would be much more solid than just using several cm of unthreaded washers. I honestly don't understand what the big deal is, but would like to know. The whole point is to cinch the frame firmly down to the hub motor via the Quick Release, right? I do not see why this would not let you cinch down the frame plenty tight. Again, my biggest question would be whether to torque the nuts outward or inward? I guess inward would be more failsafe, outward would be tighter unless they came loose. Inward would probably make it easier to change in the field.
On EM3EV's FatMac, I did notice the shoulders are wider for that motor. What wasn't clear to me was, whether he was using a removable thick threaded spacer like Kodin proposes, or whether it was all 1 piece. Does anyone know? It also wasn't clear to me how others would use EM3EV's system on a variety of wide dropout widths. Paul seemed to get around the question by saying his motor was designed for 170mm dropouts. Which, many fat frames are not, but somehow I don't think that would stop many on ES.
I would also really like the guy who ordered the motor for his 190mm dropout fatbike (sorry I don't remember your name right now) to chime in on how he planned to make that work the way he ordered it, even though his axle came too short.
drewjet
10 kW
SprocketLocket said:
That's me.
I ordered a Mxus, that is speced for a fat bike, but now that I know they will make a custom shaft, I may order just the shaft and build a second fat Bike, you can never have too many fattys in your life.
Kodin
1 kW
Remember, cassette side makes the "shoulders" effectively 140-145mm if you go that route... (Cassettes extend beyond base of threads as does the cassette carrier). Hold off until this weekend and I'll show you what I mean.
the washer needs to be at least that thick to allow a cassette to clear any dropouts you try. Takes up ~5-10mm. Keep in mind the nut will have to sit at the inside shoulder to hold the cassette in place correctly; I screwed it out so that the washer would stay in this picture.
Also, remember, these are bolt-shafts, not quick-release; there is no hole for a skewer because your wires go through the shaft.
the washer needs to be at least that thick to allow a cassette to clear any dropouts you try. Takes up ~5-10mm. Keep in mind the nut will have to sit at the inside shoulder to hold the cassette in place correctly; I screwed it out so that the washer would stay in this picture.
Also, remember, these are bolt-shafts, not quick-release; there is no hole for a skewer because your wires go through the shaft.
