Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Nep, were you following the MXUS 3000 thread?

I thought the conclusion over there was that the PWM losses are negligible, and a lower turn wind is better able to handle high phase amps with the only catch being a controller that can handle it.

Cheers
 
Did ZombieSS chime in? because he showed that PWM = more controller heat = less efficiency. Maybe it's just a few percent? but why lose a few percent of efficiency if you can avoid it, eh?

Of course a lower turn count can handle more battery/phase amps. It needs them to produce the right amount of torque to hit and maintain the speeds you're looking for.

Torque per amp & speed per volt is going to be different for each winding. A high turn count winding produces very little torque per amp, but high speed per volt, yet you need the right amperage to produce enough torque to hit the speed you're looking for, yes?
So if you are limited on amps from your battery/controller, you are very much limited on torque on a very high speed winding. This is a very poor choice to make. You will always be in PWM mode taking a few % efficiency at the controller, and you'll have less torque due to the 30A limit.

Cowardlyduck said:
Nep, were you following the MXUS 3000 thread?

I thought the conclusion over there was that the PWM losses are negligible, and a lower turn wind is better able to handle high phase amps with the only catch being a controller that can handle it.

Cheers
Click to expand...
 
72V is eventually my goal with my 5T; just ordered 6 10Ah 4S MultiStars, (Woo HK sale!) to get me started on 48V though... Better to learn to ride safely at 30-ish MPH before I bump up maximum speeds. Plus, you know, higher voltage would require a new controller and all that...
 
Sorry if this is posted, but I must have missed it...What is the spoke PCD on this hub?

It should be somewhere around 200-ish millimeters. Doesn't seem to be any blueprint on the Leaf Bike site:

http://www.leafbike.com/products/e-bike-hub-motor/gearless-20-24-26-700c-28-inch/newest-48v-1500w-rear-spoke-hub-motor-electric-bike-motor-998.html

edit to respond to kodin below: Thanks!
 
If my measurements were correct, hole spacing (center-to-center, across centerline,) was 231mm. Flanges are 36mm wide. Pretty much the same as my rim. I had a hell of a time finding 3.5mm spokes that would lace to a 21 inch moto rim, and ended up having to do a 2-cross to match the non-custom spoke lengths that are available. Keep in mind holes are not drilled accurately, or at least they weren't on my hub. I ended up expanding mine on my mill though, and now they are more or less aligned radially. Might have a 1mm positional deviation on some though, but that seems to be pretty common with hubmotors in general. It's why we have spokes with adjustments. :)
 
Just setting my motor up with cycle analyst. Anyone know how many magnet pole pairs there are in the 1500w 4t?

Also what chemistry do I select for the battery. It's a Samsung 20R pack
 
are these the same motors from the seller "hallomotor" on ebay? http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-New-St...Wheel-Ebike-/171560528671?hash=item27f1cdeb1f

that motor looks identical to the leafbike motor and the listing has similar info. same factory perhaps?

the hub-only ebay listing that i linked is considerably cheaper than buying from leafbike's website. although i don't know if it comes with perks like thicker phase wires, winding options, temp sensor. i'll ask the seller
 
My Leaf Motor came with 6 wires besides the phase wires. 5 are standard hall wires, and I've already successfully hooked them up and spun the motor, but the 6th, White wire doesn't seem to be anything.
My assumption was it was a temp sensor, sharing the halls ground. But hooking it up to my Adaptto which can sense KTY81/83/84, NT10K, and a bunch of other sensor types doesn't get me any result.

Does anyone know what type of sensor (if any) is installed in the Leaf Motor's?

Cheers
 
Leafbike have confirmed that they use a 10k thermistor. White is signal and black uses common ground (hall sensor ground)

Doesn't solve my issue though.
 
mchlpeel said:
Leafbike have confirmed that they use a 10k thermistor. White is signal and black uses common ground (hall sensor ground)

Doesn't solve my issue though.
Click to expand...
Likewise...my Adaptto has a setting for the 10k and it showed nothing on the Leaf motor. Same controller reads a KTY83 on my other motor just fine, so it's not the controller at fault.

Cheers
 
check a page or two back for where I was measuring my thermistor. It's one of the middle two wires. I'd post here but my gallery is blocked by my customer's content firewall(s).
 
Thanks kodin. I couldn't see the post you were referring too.

We know that the thermistor uses the White wire bundled with the halls as a signal wire and it shares the hall ground (black wire). It should just be a case of reterminating the White wire to the cycle analyst as described in the unofficial manual.

Unfortunately I don't have a DMM yet to test the thermistors resistance. I suspect they have installed the incorrect type of thermistor. Either that or there is a connection problem within the motor.
 
mchlpeel

I saw your post and response from teklektic on the Cycle Analyst V3 thread with the temperature and resistance table for the 10K thermistor. I just measured the temp sensor on my leaf motor with my DMM. At 29.2 C I got a measurement of 8.34 resistance, which is right where it should be according to the table. Also in my motor the thermistor wire is brown not white, which brings up a question.
All of the hall and phase wires are exactly the same color and location on the plugs that the Leaf motor and the EM3EV 12 fet controller has on its wiring, I am assuming it will be correctly wired by just plugging together. Can anybody with this motor and the Em3EV contoller verify this? Its still going to be awhile before I get this bike running, got to get a battery together before I can get on the road.
 
I am using an em3ev 18fet controller and a leaf motor. I have been running the motor for over 100 miles.

Like you I found the hall connectors to be plug and play. All colours matched perfectly. The only wire remaining was a White wire. Which must be the signal for the thermistor. I assume the hall connections are correct or the motor wouldn't run?

I will hopefully get a DMM tomorrow so I can test its resistance.
 
what is the copper fill of different available widings? sorry if i missed that..

i really would like to build this motor into a 16" moped rim or 20" BMX an up the voltage. An adaptto Mini-E should be the perfect match :)
 
madin88 said:
what is the copper fill of different available widings? sorry if i missed that..

i really would like to build this motor into a 16" moped rim or 20" BMX an up the voltage. An adaptto Mini-E should be the perfect match :)
Click to expand...
Don't know about copper fill, but given the 90%+ efficiency I'm guessing it's good. The few pics I've seen of the internals (haven't yet opened mine up) have shown great compression on the end turns, so not much loss there either.
Your right about the Mini-E + Leaf motor comb being a good one. That's what I plan for my Fighter. :)

Cheers
 
In my case, I had a red wire going to the thermistor. It's the one that lines up with the tab side in the middle either way. Should be obvious because that wire isn't inside the main sheath.

I'm not home right now so I can't give a very good picture of it, but here's something:

i-kdPBNGz-XL.jpg



[pre]________[=]________
| 1 2 3 |
| 4 5 6 |
|_________________|[/pre]

As an example.... #2 would be the thermistor positive, regardless of color of wires. No idea if the pin numbers are correct, but know that the pin that lines up with the locking tab is the thermistor positive.
 
My thermistor wire is purple. Its between the pos and neg wires in the hall connector. I run a CA3-DPS so I repurposed the yellow wire on pin 5 of the CA connector to carry the temp signal. The CA3-DPS has an external speed sensor run off my front wheel so I don't need the yellow wire for speed sensing. I did have to open my CA3 and solder the yellow wire to the NTC pad. Ground is picked up through the hall ground. My 12 fet 4110 Em3ev controller was plug and play
 
Hello,

I'm trying to repair my leafbike motor here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72304&p=1091367#p1091367

Anyone knows how to fix it?

Thank you
 
I got my Leaf Motor laced, trued and running on my Fighter over the weekend. So to answer my own original question; Yes I was able to use the rim and (10g) spokes off my old busted HS4065 to lace the Leaf Motor. The spokes needed to be pulled through the nipples a bit further than they were on the HS40 in some cases starting to bind to the unthreaded part of the spoke, but I persisted with brute force tightening and got it true eventually. :D

Torque is noticeably less than the HS40 it replaced at the same 50A battery limit I currently have set, but it's not terrible and I didn't buy the Leaf motor for it's performance.
The first thing I noticed was how much better the Leaf motor coasts/freewheels over every other E-Bike hub motor I've ever used...even geared.
It's practically like a normal bike once up to speed, and when letting off the throttle no cogging is evident at all.

I made the mistake of spraying some silicone lube under my freewheel thinking it would help it, but it just resulted in it now making a semi-grinding type sound when freewheeling. :( I'm hopeful it will work it's way out eventually.

It's hard for me to quantify the improved efficiency of this motor at this stage since I am just running it with a standard 18Fet Infineon controller and no display. Once I get my Adaptto Mini-E up and running I think I should see great results as the Sinewave controller also adds about 10% efficiency over standard controllers. :)

I'm just running the Leaf motor sealed with the stock (3mm) phase wires for now. I plan to vent, paint, add cooling fans, and bigger phase wires once I get my HS4080 back up and running again. :)

Cheers
 
What winding do you have? if it's a 4T, double your amps and report back what the torque is like compared to your HS40xx. :)
If it's a 5T, try at least 70 amps. Your H40 is a much slower wind.. you can't compare it until you bump the amps up ;)

Your observation about motor coasting is what i saw, too. I was taken aback when i found out that i could pedal it at around 17mph continuous without getting tired ( and i have some pretty screwed up knees ). The MAC motor freewheels better than it for sure, but i'd take the leaf motor freewheeling drag as a downside any day for the 2x continuous power advantage..

Sinewave controllers are usually good for maybe 1-2% efficiency +/-.. don't expect the world from it.. but you'll be shocked by the low wattage per speed figures.. they will absolutely kick the H40's butt in that regard :)
 
Thanks Nep.
I've got the 4T Leaf. Will definitely be doubling the amps once I get some cooling and a battery that can handle it. I'm currently using my original Stock Stealth Fighter batter. It's a 16S LifePo4 with over 500 cycles. If I draw more than 50A after it's about half empty it will send the BMS into LVC shutdown, so I just limit it to 50A to make it generally more usable for now. With no CA hooked up I have to program it so can't change on the fly.

I'm comparing my Leaf motor torque to the torque of both a HS4065 and HS4080 as I've had both. Most recently though I was running the HS4080 which I believe is also a 4T wind, using the exact same controller, battery and amps. My Leaf and the HS4080 both top out about 55kph so that would suggest the same wind. I would say the Leaf produces at least 10% less torque at the same power level. That's really not so bad though if you consider the much lower weight and higher efficiency. :)

As a benchmark, I used to be able to cruise on the flat at about 50kph on my Fighter using the HS40xx and consume about 1250W. I'm hoping for 1000W from the Leaf for the same speed...we'll see.

Cheers
 
It might actually produce more torque because of the difference between torque per amps on your slower wind versus this extremely fast winding.

If you're comparing it to a HS4080, that motor does 80kmh on 72v, whereas the 4T leaf should do 95kmh on 72v. That's more than a 10% difference in speed vs. torque difference.

Sounds like it's time for a new battery.. lower volts, higher amps. That battery sag is hurting you too.
 
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